The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 152 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15195181
Potemkin wrote:It would be comforting to believe that these people are all just a basket of cognitively challenged deplorables, @XogGyux. But they're not. And underestimating one's opponents is the first step towards defeat. There is a certain ideology at work in these people's minds, and that ideology is potentially incredibly destructive. Their response to the pandemic, and to the measures taken to combat it, is a direct consequence of that ideology. So long as they hold to those beliefs about themselves and about the world, they will continue to say what they say and do what they do.

Your theory does not have a mechanism that explains why most covid (not all) anti-vaxxers are Trump brown nosers.
I am not saying that because you make 1 (or even a handful) of stupid decisions you are stupid. I am not saying that all anti-vaxxers are "cognitive challanged deplorable". Identity politics have turned normal people into fanatical drones. Before the pandemic I didn't know who was who, politics dont come up very frequently in my line of work. But now, we all know who is who, the positive predictive value of an unvaccinated COVID patient is pretty decent. And I'll agree, they are not completely idiots or deplorables. They just made a few bad decisions. But it seems quite clear why, identity politics/trump/asshole replublicans, take your picks.
#15195182
Potemkin wrote:This is the crux of what I think is the problem with the people who think Covid-19 is a hoax, or that vaccines are a conspiracy, or that having to wear a mask in public is an intolerable violation of their personal rights. The entire pandemic challenges their sense of themselves as sovereign individuals existing in splendid isolation who are in complete control of their immediate surroundings. This creates such cognitive dissonance within them that in order to maintain that sense of self, they must deny reality. The pandemic must be a hoax, the vaccines must be a conspiracy. They just want the whole pandemic, and the necessary response to it, to just go away. But, of course, it won't. In fact, by behaving in this way, they are actually ensuring that it won't go away, by making it more likely that they and others will catch the disease, more likely that they will spread it, and more likely that they will die of it. In other words, they've lost their fucking minds.


@Potemkin ;

This rather encapsulates what I am thinking on this subject. This recent pandemic isn't so much about the pandemic itself to many people, but the destruction it makes of false ideological constructs, and the resulting denial of that destruction.
#15195187
annatar1914 wrote:@Potemkin ;

This rather encapsulates what I am thinking on this subject. This recent pandemic isn't so much about the pandemic itself to many people, but the destruction it makes of false ideological constructs, and the resulting denial of that destruction.

Precisely. And, to my mind, this is the real take-home lesson we should learn from the pandemic. The fact that if this increasingly fashionable ideology of the atomised libertarian individual existing by and for himself in splendid isolation with no obligations or responsibilities to others and in total control of his or her body and immediate surroundings, if this ideology is allowed to become much stronger, then it could potentially lead to the destruction of human society.

And it's no accident that the vaccine conspiracy theorists tend to be the same people who wore red MAGA hats. Just as they see Covid-19 as a hoax and vaccines as a conspiracy, they see their own lack of financial success in life as an elite-led conspiracy against them personally. Trump will fix those pesky elitist bastards! Lol.
#15195209
Potemkin wrote:Precisely. And, to my mind, this is the real take-home lesson we should learn from the pandemic. The fact that if this increasingly fashionable ideology of the atomised libertarian individual existing by and for himself in splendid isolation with no obligations or responsibilities to others and in total control of his or her body and immediate surroundings, if this ideology is allowed to become much stronger, then it could potentially lead to the destruction of human society.

And it's no accident that the vaccine conspiracy theorists tend to be the same people who wore red MAGA hats. Just as they see Covid-19 as a hoax and vaccines as a conspiracy, they see their own lack of financial success in life as an elite-led conspiracy against them personally. Trump will fix those pesky elitist bastards! Lol.


Lots of people out there sceptical of vaccines who aren't conspiracy nutters. Or at least only mild ones. For some reason vaccines have been controversial since they have been invented. It has little to do with today's "atomized individuals".
#15195274
Drlee wrote:Why are we having these off-topic discussions? The Virus has nothing to do with cars or fetuses or a chicken's motive for crossing a thoroughfare. Those so-called arguments are just childish.


Because if they talk about how COVID isn't serious or why they shouldn't get vaccinated they look stupid, so they have to change the subject and move the goalposts.
#15195290
That is true @SpecialOlympian And I think some of them are starting to figure it out. The thing is that they are so invested in their nonsense that they can't break free. To do so they have to resign from the club and the other club wants nothing to do with them.

@Potemkin Just as they see Covid-19 as a hoax and vaccines as a conspiracy, they see their own lack of financial success in life as an elite-led conspiracy against them personally.


Well. :hmm: So they throw in their lot with the elites?

While I believe that there IS "an elite-led conspiracy against them personally".....

I am going somewhere else. Or at least adding it to explain why they have thrown in with the elites. I look to religious fundamentalism of course but do not give a pass to most of mainstream, mostly protestant religion. Protestantism of the sixteenth century and surging back today in prosperity Gospel, proclaimed and sanctified work and commerce as part of the Godly life. They cannot un-link the economy from the divine will.

So what does a girl do? She believes in Capitalism as God's will. She believes in patriotism and defines it using economic terms. (Capitalist vs communist/socialist/pinko/democrat.) Seriously. What was the last important "patriotic" issue that was not economic? Look at the last few months.

The USA and its allies, but mostly the USA suffered a humiliating military defeat. A defeat of our own making. We did not retreat in the face of a dangerous military threat. Nope. We simply decided we did not want to play anymore and turned the battlefield over to our enemies. And we ran like scared dogs. We didn't even do our exit well when a few National Guardsmen and two guys with a wheelbarrow could have covered an orderly withdrawal over a few months. I absolutely do not blame the soldiers here. Most of the ones I know are still shaking their heads and wondering what happened. But what happened is clear.

There was a time when this would have sent the right into a full-on patriotic fervor. Although a few of them cleared their throats in a menacing way they did nothing. Why? Because they had been completely distracted by God's own economy and the fake bug and abortion and stolen elections and.....

Anger is Soooooo much better than bread and circuses.

I am very concerned that these louts are going to break it really badly. I am close to despair for our union. I wonder how long we can stagger along. If Trump mounts a serious bid for president in '24 there is going to be the devil to pay and no pitch hot.
#15195312
@Potemkin , thank you, and so please allow me to go further with this, from what you're saying;

Precisely. And, to my mind, this is the real take-home lesson we should learn from the pandemic. The fact that if this increasingly fashionable ideology of the atomised libertarian individual existing by and for himself in splendid isolation with no obligations or responsibilities to others and in total control of his or her body and immediate surroundings, if this ideology is allowed to become much stronger, then it could potentially lead to the destruction of human society.


It already is, if we're to consider it's roots in the ''Enlightenment'' and classical liberal political philosophy, at least in my opinion.

And it's no accident that the vaccine conspiracy theorists tend to be the same people who wore red MAGA hats. Just as they see Covid-19 as a hoax and vaccines as a conspiracy, they see their own lack of financial success in life as an elite-led conspiracy against them personally. Trump will fix those pesky elitist bastards! Lol.


I totally agree.

We moderns tend to want to use the State as a cudgel, when not using it to rig the economy in favor of the Oligarchy. Well, despite my anti-libertarian political philosophy, what I propose is that the real opposite of Libertarianism is not an absolute Totalitarianism or ''Statism'' on the other end of the political spectrum as the Libertarian/Conservative Bloc imagines, but a truly Socialist and Communitarian society in which the State has become truly democratic, and an extension of the popular will of the whole people.
#15195323
SpecialOlympian wrote:Because if they talk about how COVID isn't serious


Compared to past deceases Covid isn't very serious. In fact one could legitimately see the reaction of today's societies (lockdowns etc.) as decadence or the result of "gerontocracy".

Not my view, but still.

annatar1914 wrote:...in which the State has become truly democratic, and an extension of the popular will of the whole people.


What is that supposed to be? I voted on the first Covid law (various emergency measures/powers) and next month on the second (Covid certificate, required for most stuff). Both got/will get 60%+ approval, but that still leaves almost 40% opposed.

No such thing as "popular will of the whole people".
#15195329
Rugoz wrote:Compared to past deceases Covid isn't very serious.
:eh: More people died in the USA, from Covid, than ALL the deaths from Cancer the previous year. That's not serious? Are you saying that cancer isn't serious?

Wake the fuck up. :knife:
#15195338
Godstud wrote::eh: More people died in the USA, from Covid, than ALL the deaths from Cancer the previous year. That's not serious? Are you saying that cancer isn't serious?

Wake the fuck up. :knife:


One difference though is that some 16-17 million people in the US live with cancer:

https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/all.html

But the US has thus far 45 million cases. From that point of view, cancer is indeed more dangerous than COVID.

The danger of COVID I think lies in the fact that uncontrolled infections of unimmunized people can lead to an uncontrollable demand for healthcare services, this doesn't quite happen with cancer which is a long term disease. Such demand doesn't just put the COVID patients at risk, but can also lead to postponement and substandard care (at best) for other people, including those with cancer or screening those at risk of developing it. This was also a risk of lockdowns themselves, by the way, which shows we haven't seen the full cost of the pandemic strictly from the perspective of health outcomes yet - but the lockdowns were of course necessary on the early part of the pandemic.
#15195363
Godstud wrote::eh: More people died in the USA, from Covid, than ALL the deaths from Cancer the previous year. That's not serious? Are you saying that cancer isn't serious?

Wake the fuck up. :knife:


Potemkin was literally talking about the "destruction of human society". Cancer is serious, but it doesn't wipe out a large share of the population and mostly affects old people anyway.

My point is, just because some people don't take Covid seriously doesn't mean they would ignore a more serious desease.
#15195374
Godstud wrote: :eh: More people died in the USA, from Covid, than ALL the deaths from Cancer the previous year. That's not serious? Are you saying that cancer isn't serious?

"I'm as serious as cancer when I say that rhythm is a dancer."

Covid-19 has a mortality rate of between 2% and 3% of people infected. Compare this with, say, the Black Death in medieval Europe, which had a fatality rate of between 30% and 50% of people infected.

So no, Covid-19 is not a 'serious' disease at all, if you compare it with other historical pandemics.

Wake the fuck up. :knife:

:coffee:
#15195381
Drlee wrote:That is true @SpecialOlympian And I think some of them are starting to figure it out. The thing is that they are so invested in their nonsense that they can't break free. To do so they have to resign from the club and the other club wants nothing to do with them.



Well. :hmm: So they throw in their lot with the elites?

While I believe that there IS "an elite-led conspiracy against them personally".....

I am going somewhere else. Or at least adding it to explain why they have thrown in with the elites. I look to religious fundamentalism of course but do not give a pass to most of mainstream, mostly protestant religion. Protestantism of the sixteenth century and surging back today in prosperity Gospel, proclaimed and sanctified work and commerce as part of the Godly life. They cannot un-link the economy from the divine will.

So what does a girl do? She believes in Capitalism as God's will. She believes in patriotism and defines it using economic terms. (Capitalist vs communist/socialist/pinko/democrat.) Seriously. What was the last important "patriotic" issue that was not economic? Look at the last few months.

The USA and its allies, but mostly the USA suffered a humiliating military defeat. A defeat of our own making. We did not retreat in the face of a dangerous military threat. Nope. We simply decided we did not want to play anymore and turned the battlefield over to our enemies. And we ran like scared dogs. We didn't even do our exit well when a few National Guardsmen and two guys with a wheelbarrow could have covered an orderly withdrawal over a few months. I absolutely do not blame the soldiers here. Most of the ones I know are still shaking their heads and wondering what happened. But what happened is clear.

There was a time when this would have sent the right into a full-on patriotic fervor. Although a few of them cleared their throats in a menacing way they did nothing. Why? Because they had been completely distracted by God's own economy and the fake bug and abortion and stolen elections and.....

Anger is Soooooo much better than bread and circuses.

I am very concerned that these louts are going to break it really badly. I am close to despair for our union. I wonder how long we can stagger along. If Trump mounts a serious bid for president in '24 there is going to be the devil to pay and no pitch hot.


Anger IS bread and circuses.
#15195383
Everyone will participate in the daily 5 minute hate.
#15195393
@Rugoz , concerning the popular will of the people, you replied to me that;


What is that supposed to be? I voted on the first Covid law (various emergency measures/powers) and next month on the second (Covid certificate, required for most stuff). Both got/will get 60%+ approval, but that still leaves almost 40% opposed.

No such thing as "popular will of the whole people".


Implicit in any vote is the unwritten agreement among the people, including those who don't vote at all, that they will abide by the results of the majority votes cast. This is (rightfully or wrongfully) the ''Popular will of the whole people'' in action.
#15195405
AFAIK wrote:Everyone will participate in the daily 5 minute hate.

Twitter was secretly founded by the Church of Satan to get the hate stirred up.
#15195408
Potemkin wrote:Covid-19 has a mortality rate of between 2% and 3% of people infected. Compare this with, say, the Black Death in medieval Europe, which had a fatality rate of between 30% and 50% of people infected.

So no, Covid-19 is not a 'serious' disease at all, if you compare it with other historical pandemics.
:roll: This isn't 650 years ago, where they didn't have any sort of real medical science. Comparing it to the bubonic plague, which was preventable if they knew how it was transmitted, isn't truly possible.

Why aren't you comparing car crashes to Black Plague victims in the year 1350? :D That's next, isn't it?

Bubonic plague, with modern medicine is treatable so that a much lower percentage die from it(10-15%), but it's also completely preventable. There is no vaccine for Bubonic plague and yet USA only has 1-17 cases per year. It's not as infectious as Covid-19. Not by a long shot.
https://www.cdc.gov/plague/maps/index.html

So, Bubonic Plague hasn't "disappeared" but the manner in which is is transmitted has been all but eradicated, with modern hygiene and sanitation. Not really a valid comparison to Covid-19.


Cancer is not infectious. Cancer isn't a transmissible disease. It's not comparable.
#15195411
Focusing exclusively on the death rate of COVID ignores that it can have longer term health complications for the lungs, heart, and other organs.

But don't worry, we don't need to take the ~experimental~ vaccine when we have the even more experimental monoclonal antibodies that I approve of for no readily apparent reason.
#15195422
Godstud wrote:...Not really a valid comparison to Covid-19.
...It's not comparable.


metaphor

A "metaphor" can be used to compare different phenomena by isolating a common element. Obviously, other elements of each item being compared will be different.

The Whale may be "the lion of the oceans," but it doesn't have golden hair, whiskers or say meow.
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