The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 153 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15195443
@Drlee , ordinarily as is my want, I'll break what people say down in my replies, but this time is different, because really you're saying one thing;


I am going somewhere else. Or at least adding it to explain why they have thrown in with the elites. I look to religious fundamentalism of course but do not give a pass to most of mainstream, mostly protestant religion. Protestantism of the sixteenth century and surging back today in prosperity Gospel, proclaimed and sanctified work and commerce as part of the Godly life. They cannot un-link the economy from the divine will.

So what does a girl do? She believes in Capitalism as God's will. She believes in patriotism and defines it using economic terms. (Capitalist vs communist/socialist/pinko/democrat.) Seriously. What was the last important "patriotic" issue that was not economic? Look at the last few months.

The USA and its allies, but mostly the USA suffered a humiliating military defeat. A defeat of our own making. We did not retreat in the face of a dangerous military threat. Nope. We simply decided we did not want to play anymore and turned the battlefield over to our enemies. And we ran like scared dogs. We didn't even do our exit well when a few National Guardsmen and two guys with a wheelbarrow could have covered an orderly withdrawal over a few months. I absolutely do not blame the soldiers here. Most of the ones I know are still shaking their heads and wondering what happened. But what happened is clear.

There was a time when this would have sent the right into a full-on patriotic fervor. Although a few of them cleared their throats in a menacing way they did nothing. Why? Because they had been completely distracted by God's own economy and the fake bug and abortion and stolen elections and.....

Anger is Soooooo much better than bread and circuses.

I am very concerned that these louts are going to break it really badly. I am close to despair for our union. I wonder how long we can stagger along. If Trump mounts a serious bid for president in '24 there is going to be the devil to pay and no pitch hot.


A lot of things can happen between now and then, and will. And for many people, he's already still the President now. I warned people, oh yes I did. I even hinted that his loss was some kind of unexpected miracle, and I still believe that.

But no, the point really is that you hit the nail on the head. the ''Prosperity Gospel'' heresy, and I would add, the ''Dominion Theology'' heresy. Even if Trump fades, it's not going away anytime soon.
#15195444
annatar1914 wrote:But no, the point really is that you hit the nail on the head. the ''Prosperity Gospel'' heresy, and I would add, the ''Dominion Theology'' heresy. Even if Trump fades, it's not going away anytime soon.


Of course it's best referred to as "Christian Zionism".

Ted Haggee is the worst of the worst.
#15195447
annatar1914 wrote:Implicit in any vote is the unwritten agreement among the people, including those who don't vote at all, that they will abide by the results of the majority votes cast. This is (rightfully or wrongfully) the ''Popular will of the whole people'' in action.


Not everybody agrees to such an agreement though. You will always find a small minority who disagrees with majority rule (or any kind of rule for that matter). Either they reject it altogether or in particular instances, where they say, for example, that it violates fundamental rights.

Since there's no rational justification for any kind of rule, you cannot argue they have to be "forced to be free" either.
#15195471
My wife tested positive whilst everyone else in our household is negative. Since we're 4 people in a 2 bed flat I expect we'll all be positive soon enough.
#15195473
Yes with Sinovac so not the best at preventing infection but reduces the severity of symptoms reasonably well.
#15195478
I'm very sorry AFAIK. We are all pulling for you. I know you will do just fine. Our prayers for your wife and your family.
#15195502
Rugoz wrote:Not everybody agrees to such an agreement though. You will always find a small minority who disagrees with majority rule (or any kind of rule for that matter). Either they reject it altogether or in particular instances, where they say, for example, that it violates fundamental rights.

Since there's no rational justification for any kind of rule, you cannot argue they have to be "forced to be free" either.


@Rugoz ;

Such persons can rule themselves then, if practical, or if not be removed from existence altogether if they make society impossible and are incorrigible outlaws, thieves, bandits, etc..

I'm not expecting Utopia here, just reflecting that mostly decent people are capable of social love for others in society, while the assholes are not. But you have to have a society that isn't designed around catering to assholes and their special snowflake needs and desires.
#15195504
colliric wrote:Of course it's best referred to as "Christian Zionism".

Ted Haggee is the worst of the worst.


@colliric ;

Yes. Interestingly though, Dominion theology and the prosperity gospel overlap with ''Christian'' Zionism, in that pretty much all the adherents of those heresies are also Zionist heretics, there are other ''evangelical'' types who are very leery of both prosperity gospel and dominion heresies.

Dominion theology will probably become the new big thing once the baby boomer generation fades away. Or not, because I suspect their children and grandchildren aren't very Christian or Judaism-worshippers either.

This virus is changing that dynamic as well, into uncertain territory.
#15196285
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Yeah, I'm really late this time, busy week--busy enough that I forgot to grab the vaccination figures.

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annatar1914 wrote:This tells me you know nothing of true economies in the real world (as Libertarians often are too ideological about it, prefer the Austrian school, etc...), nor of ''who gets to make the decision''

Actually, economics is one of the subjects I find more interesting, enough that I've purchased eight of the Great Courses lecture series on the subject.

And on that last point, why is that so? To quote Carl Schmidt; ''Sovereign is he who decides 'the exception'''. In the Libertarian fantasy, the individual atomized man of society is Sovereign. This cannot be, or one would have no society to speak of at all, (and for the Christian, God Himself is Sovereign.) There's always someone above you or below you, to be responsible for, or responsible to.

Avoid that reality at your peril.

Again, a confusion of ideas, with things being an extension of one's individual will via ''Private Property'', an extension of one's alleged ''self-ownership'' Automobiles, when used properly, will attain the objective of taking one where one needs to go. A Pandemic goes where it will, and cannot ever be made an extension of one's will. For the Hyper-Individualist/Libertarian, it's always about total control over one's immediate surroundings, and disease throws a monkey wrench into that idea, doesn't it?

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am a Libertarian. I used to be, before I finished growing up. So do you want to consider the actual points I made, rather than tilting at that strawman? How many children need to die of a particular disease in a given year for all the restrictions we've seen the Left demand we impose on schools? Looking at the flu, it's higher than ~50,000. How many people need to die on our streets and highways before we ban private ownership of cars? It's greater than ~40,000.

Potemkin wrote:This is the crux of what I think is the problem with the people who think Covid-19 is a hoax, or that vaccines are a conspiracy, or that having to wear a mask in public is an intolerable violation of their personal rights. The entire pandemic challenges their sense of themselves as sovereign individuals existing in splendid isolation who are in complete control of their immediate surroundings. This creates such cognitive dissonance within them that in order to maintain that sense of self, they must deny reality. The pandemic must be a hoax, the vaccines must be a conspiracy. They just want the whole pandemic, and the necessary response to it, to just go away. But, of course, it won't. In fact, by behaving in this way, they are actually ensuring that it won't go away, by making it more likely that they and others will catch the disease, more likely that they will spread it, and more likely that they will die of it. In other words, they've lost their fucking minds.

How much of that applies to the group that, last I heard, New York is having the hardest time getting inoculated--young Blacks? For that matter, there's the ones that look at how dangerous the Wuhan virus is to them (not much, if they're healthy and below retirement age) or their children (even less), consider all the elites telling them they need to mask up but can't be bothered to mask up themselves (the most recent I've heard, Michigan's Governor Whitmer was recently photographed violating mask rules at a D.C. bar). And then there's how the CDC has essentially blown off any consideration of natural immunity when making its "suggestions." And problems like how in Ireland (91% inoculated) cases are going up, especially in Waterford County--the county with the highest inoculation rate of the country (99.7%!). I had no problem getting inoculated when it was offered to me--but that was my decision, not forced on me by the State.
Potemkin wrote:"I'm as serious as cancer when I say that rhythm is a dancer."

Covid-19 has a mortality rate of between 2% and 3% of people infected. Compare this with, say, the Black Death in medieval Europe, which had a fatality rate of between 30% and 50% of people infected.

So no, Covid-19 is not a 'serious' disease at all, if you compare it with other historical pandemics.


:coffee:

Yes, if the Wuhan virus had a death rate equal to the Black Death, or even the Spanish Flu (proportionately, it would be around two million today), and was less discriminate in who it targeted, you'd probably see even hardcore Libertarians agreeing with state-mandated restrictions, etc. After all, one of the tenets of Libertarian philosophy is that its principles apply to normal situations.

annatar1914 wrote:Implicit in any vote is the unwritten agreement among the people, including those who don't vote at all, that they will abide by the results of the majority votes cast. This is (rightfully or wrongfully) the ''Popular will of the whole people'' in action.

Likewise, implicit in the concept of constitutional rights and supermajority requirements is the principle that some things should not be determined by majority rule. Of course, just what those things are, is properly determined by the Will of the People (defined by supermajority vote).
#15196298
I've never considered myself a libertarian and have always argued against the nonsense of absolute private property and absolute self ownership. If we believed in absolute self ownership then we couldn't have conscription. I support the use of imprisonment and imprisonment is slavery, so I consider anyone who says slavery is an absolute wrong an idiot. Inevitably some of the people imprisoned / enslaved will be innocent. We need a prison system and some imprisonment of the innocent is inevitable, but less innocent people could be enslaved if we invested more in the justice system. But that would mean raising taxes and government spending less on other things. If you examine any area of life you will find no absolute moral boundaries, just trade-offs between different selfish people's interests, whims and preferences.

If there was a Black-death like virus, government would need to intervene in a severe manner not to confine people to their homes, but to force people out of their homes to keep vital services functioning. That's if the central government continued to function at all. in the first lock-down here the police here even managed to get the street people many of them alcoholics and drug addicts off the high streets. The police by their nature will always be more fascistically minded than the average person. That's just inevitable. Well obviously not the Thai police, I'm sure they have no fascist tendencies at all. ;) The police loved the early lock downs, absolutely loved them, precisely because they weren't really scared of the China virus. :lol: Do you think the police would be approaching winos if this was the Black Death?

No if this was the Black Death I can tell you exactly what the police in Britain would be doing. They would be using their monopoly on guns to steal as much of the food and other essential supplies as the whole supply chain broke down.
#15196347
I see our resident murderers can't stop making themselves look even more stupid than they are.
#15196366
@Doug64 , you replied;

Actually, economics is one of the subjects I find more interesting, enough that I've purchased eight of the Great Courses lecture series on the subject.


Let me know what you think about the economic paradox of business owners depressing or stagnating wages of workers to keep profits up, but then not being able to sell products and services because consumers (who are the workers after all...) don't have the money to buy them.


You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am a Libertarian. I used to be, before I finished growing up. So do you want to consider the actual points I made, rather than tilting at that strawman?


All of your points have been predicated on a libertarian philosophy of natural rights and self ownership, so it's hardly a stretch to imagine that you haven't quite grown past your earlier political ideas, is it?


How many children need to die of a particular disease in a given year for all the restrictions we've seen the Left demand we impose on schools? Looking at the flu, it's higher than ~50,000. How many people need to die on our streets and highways before we ban private ownership of cars? It's greater than ~40,000.


Talk about a ''strawman'' :roll:

How many adults have to die before we get child/adult interaction in places like schools down to a safe level, with masking and vaccinations?

How much of that applies to the group that, last I heard, New York is having the hardest time getting inoculated--young Blacks?


You're right, hyper-individualistic selfish stupidity and practical satanism isn't just a preserve of the lunatic American Right/Libertarian nexus, it's among other blocs of people too...

But I find it interesting that you do not find an affinity with them, aside from problems with the law. But I'm thinking Libertarian fantasies are a preserve of a certain subset of American Whites. Blacks actually know better.

For that matter, there's the ones that look at how dangerous the Wuhan virus is to them (not much, if they're healthy and below retirement age) or their children (even less), consider all the elites telling them they need to mask up but can't be bothered to mask up themselves (the most recent I've heard, Michigan's Governor Whitmer was recently photographed violating mask rules at a D.C. bar). And then there's how the CDC has essentially blown off any consideration of natural immunity when making its "suggestions." And problems like how in Ireland (91% inoculated) cases are going up, especially in Waterford County--the county with the highest inoculation rate of the country (99.7%!).


If you understand anything about statistics and infectious disease, you would know that of course cases of COVID-19 in the vaccinated would go up-but what about deaths there from COVID-19?


I had no problem getting inoculated when it was offered to me--but that was my decision, not forced on me by the State.


Ah, the old ''I'', reminds me of Satan's ''I wills'' in Scripture... But maybe you should think more in terms of ''we'' and ''us''.

Yes, if the Wuhan virus had a death rate equal to the Black Death, or even the Spanish Flu (proportionately, it would be around two million today), and was less discriminate in who it targeted, you'd probably see even hardcore Libertarians agreeing with state-mandated restrictions, etc. After all, one of the tenets of Libertarian philosophy is that its principles apply to normal situations.


What a load of bullshit. I say that, because it's the Libertarians who will always try to decide what the ''normal'' is. :roll:

Likewise, implicit in the concept of constitutional rights and supermajority requirements is the principle that some things should not be determined by majority rule. Of course, just what those things are, is properly determined by the Will of the People (defined by supermajority vote).


Ah the tyranny of the minority....
#15196371
Drlee wrote:I see our resident murderers can't stop making themselves look even more stupid than they are.


@Drlee ;

The interesting thing about evil is that it doesn't know it's evil, of course, and is endlessly twisting logic to rationalize everything it wants to do, or doesn't want done. But it's surest sign is the ''I''.
#15196394
I'm fairly sure that there is a significant portion of the GOP that is willing to play to anti-vaxx idiots just to get votes and they know this will kill some of their base.

But who cares? It helps you win this election cycle. The braying morons of their base demand death, because dying owns the libs, and if you don't give it to them someone else will. Partially through gerrymandering, partially through a decades long effort to build a media base that sells whatever will kill you whether it be unadultured bleach or whatever that makes you shit out your intestinal linings, there is a death cultist base within the GOP that demands you sell them poison and you tell them they're smart for swallowing it.

On this very forum we have colliric, a man who wanted to import Alex Jones Infowars products but only told us he was "joking" years after the fact and then had a total meltdown consulting his primary caregiver after getting vaccinated. I would encourage people not to read his posts, as they are tainted by the vaccination and Bill Gates's micromachines.

Obviously anyone higher up in the GOP is vaxxed to the max. Like, there is no way Mitch McConnel, a man who still suffers the effects of the Polio virus, isn't vaxxed to the fucking gills and not on his fifth booster shot.
#15196449
Well. That is interesting Igor. Of course it is perhaps the most idiotic post I have seen in a long time. And I have seen some amazingly stupid ones.

Funny thing is though that there are actually people who are not intelligent enough to see what is wrong with your post. And some even had the benefit of special education.
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