"One word of truth outweights the whole world." - traditional Russian proverb
The eternal struggle continues....
Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...
Moderator: PoFo Agora Mods
Potemkin wrote:"What is truth?" - Pontius Pilate
"One word of truth outweights the whole world." - traditional Russian proverb
The eternal struggle continues....
What are the spiritual roots of the bourgeoisie? It's an excessive belief in this
visible world and unbelief in another, invisible world. The bourgeois is struck by
this visible world of things, shocked by it and seduced by it. He does not take
another reality seriously; he rejects all spiritual things and sees all to be like
himself. The bourgeois always says to himself: we know you, you are all like me
but do not want to admit it; you are deceiving yourself. All of you live by the
blessings of this world and all accept nothing but external reality. The bourgeois
puts himself above others because he recognizes this and admits it. The bourgeois
is not a symbolist since the symbolic world outlook is alien to him (The Spiritual
The bourgeois realm is a realm of the quantitative. To it stands opposed the realm
of the qualitative. The bourgeois spirit builds everything on the basis of welfare,
felicity and satisfaction. The spirit as its polar opposite tends to build on the basis
of values, it has to gravitate towards the great spiritual far off. The bourgeois spirit
therefore does not love and indeed is afraid of sacrifice, whereas the anti-
bourgeois spirit at its basis is sacrificial, even when it asserts power. The
bourgeois were not created by socialism, it was created by the old, decrepit world.
But socialism accepts the legacy of the bourgeoisie, it desires to increase and
develop it and carry this spirit on to an universal triumph.
Potemkin wrote:Berdyaev was correct about the vulgar materialism of the bourgeoisie. But they actually do worse than merely deny the existence of the spiritual - they take over the legacy of past spirituality, and corrupt it with their own materialism, thus subverting and denying genuine spiritual experience to others. This has been the fate of the various Christian denominations in the USA, for example, with the 'Prosperity Gospel' being merely the most honest example of this materialist corruption of Christianity. The bourgeoisie embody Modernity in its most egregious form.
annatar1914 wrote:@Potemkin ,
Indeed, I quite agree my friend. But the answer is not quite Berdaeyev's somewhat Gnostic and Aristocratic ''Freedom'' either, in order to generate ''genuine spiritual experience'', is it? His friend Shestov would have said that anyone is capable of knowing the Truth and are not sequestered from the Truth even if many are rendered ''mindless drones'' by Modernity, as Berdaeyev would characterize them. This suggests something even more radical is possible. Dostyoevsky's ''Underground Man'' insists that man can actually deny 2+2=4, and Shestov says God can too...
Does this mean a vulgar interpretation of this Freedom allows for people to not take anti-Covid 19 vaccines, for example, in good conscience, to give an example from our real world objective reality? Absolutely not in my opinion, precisely because modern man's individualistic decisions rest on the notion of natural rational self interest, are a calculation of strict loss-or-gain (no matter how defective individual calculations might be in this and other cases). This corruption goes back to ''Objective Reality'' and ''Necessity'' , not a denial of it. These Anti-vaxxers are not so much Science deniers, as they are the hypertrophic fruit of Modernity's Scientism. One might say; ''Every man a Scientist/Expert''...
What this might lead to, after the grotesque contradictions involved and mentioned in this discussion, is an end to the Bourgeoisie as we have known them. And that will lead to a revival of spirituality and true freedom.
It is important not to go to the opposite extreme and reject materialism as being altogether evil and corrupt. This would, of coursem be Manicheanism or Gnosticism - God created the material world, and saw that it was good. This, I think, is why Augustine was very careful in his commentary on Matthew 6:19-20 not to condemn the material world as such, referring to it as "silver" rather than "gold". Augustine had been a Manichean in his youth, before converting to Christianity, and was acutely aware of the dangers of that particular heresy.
Indeed. They are caught up in the coils of Modernity, and can never even understand, let alone achieve, true freedom of the spirit.
The end of the bourgeoisie is a necessary prerequisite to that revival of spirituality and freedom, but it must necessarily be an economic - a material - end rather than just a cultural end. In other words, there must be a political and social Revolution.
''They say, “With our tongues we will prevail. We own our lips—who can be our master?” “For the cause of the oppressed and for the groaning of the needy, I will now arise,” says the LORD. “I will bring safety to him who yearns.”
''....so the mirror should be applied here if we compare Dostoevski to any simple Saint earlier usually monastery shepherd as Christian Theologian or Hymnographer ...''
yes he had awakening i.e. metanoia, but he was brought up mids romanticism thus his works are heavily influenced by the european trends, as someone says he was ultimate heir of the european and russian romanticism  said this defacto he was diving in the enlightenment trends altho with antielitist mood interwoven with authentic russian mindset ...
anyway ... to be clear my objection in my previous post was more towards your generalizing logic about libertarianism even more when maybe unintentionally You are equaling it to liberalism, yes it could be seen as fruit from same enlightenment stem and from this respect I despise it too, yet libertarianism can be seen as political philosophy exempt from historicism and the false egalite of the enlightenment era tho as term resonates liberty,
but one thing is history another philosophy and per'se is wrong to put everything in same mold, so I disagree labeling and comparing libertarianism even with anarchism even less with liberalism ... maybe coz I see myself on the political compass as social'libertarianist tho more leaning to center than left, simply in World that exists coz Salvation who am I to seek for heaven on earth and question Our Lords Providence i.e. its not accidental there are powers thrones etc. levels of hierarchy not just in the spiritual but also this world too, in this context bourgeoisie also has role at least so people would see what is wrong emphasis of salvation even tho even rich decadent people can evolve if they repent, yeah more time consuming to swim out from all the piles of temptations tho as Our Lord advice us with camel parabola ...
what is interesting tho intellectual bourgeoisie is also deadly thing, as we are Warned that we will be judged in the end for every word we say, from this respect also generalization thing is problem to some extent too, but predominantly hate speech towards the different or usually envy and curses towards political counterparts , yeah I am really sick when will heard how common people on talk shows eforums or soc.networks are swearing and cursing without any care everything, everything? everything! even the weather ...
... its the decadence of the ego what with live now in more than wealth or lusts, the last ladder to freedom when even we balance hedonism and materialism in ourself we are struggling to calm our pride and not to judge even less to help with prayers those that deserve judgment, final frontier for all of us as temptation and last stronghold of the emptiness from the spirit of this world, tho in the end its not issue whether we are loosing our guard but whether we gave up the struggle within, the last true enemy our internal battle with our own demons-anathema-to-them, yep in right circumstances even Patriarchs have had raised a blade instead The Sword Of The Lords Word ...
somehow mids all political trending now I see libertarianism as hook for all people that lived long on "democracy" cliche which was by rule always misused by some elites clans or groups, and thats why I am trying to defend libertarianism as only centrist stronghold where emphasis is utmost on the Free Will on top by decentralization means, tho even that has frame eg. in contrast to anarchism where individualism is more pronounced in libertarianism strive for kind of arranged collective ...
when seen from historic logic the russian kremlins and Optinas are last rue libertarian settlements altho clanish one, yet cant say for certainty how big autonomy they had, time when in west or east rude feudalism existed, tho way more loosen in Ottoman Empire, still cant claim how long this trend was regular in Russia coz I've never explore it through studies but articles, hm I need to find some book where social evolution of the medieval russian ruling through the centuries is addressed neatly ... hoe You can help ...
its interesting to note elites always existed in one or another form, but they've not always exploited the masses coz selfish possessive needs, from Chrstian aspect in eastern europe Tsars Vasilevs or Knyazes not rarely were employing archaic communism coz Christocentric Needs i.e. to defend Christianity, the same could be said for western europe too but there coz vatican became heir as ruler so as authority simply corruption (aside all the rest reflections) has eaten the free peasant and reached till serfdom, altho must note that on east were not always ideal circumstances ...
seen from perspective of modern politics think exactly that momentum played big role for russians to embrace communism, even tho the same was foreign "good" even tho the same was atheistic, maybe somehow subconsciously the hope was forwarded towards Communia as Christian Ideal so the common people didnt gave extra resistance on the commie surge, altho from soteriological aspect defacto was punishment for the russian aristocracy which started heavily to lean towards european lavishness as Saint Jovan Kronshtadski prophesized ... needless to mention but will add the way how lenin disappeared from the scene all points to that too, in the end how russian empire consolidated and prepared itself for the later nazi surge also points to Providence From Above ...
finally will point even digressions have own aetheral mark what about the collective subconsciousness or traditions, thus mids western freemasonic rule in which we live nowadays only political freedom that can be achieve is through libertarianism as means of greater decentralization from the concealed neopagan hive, while on east if Christianity and Islam reviving as they are I am seeing Tsardom and Caliphate logical path, the question how big is the atheistic sentiment and neoliberal mood among young russians so they would reject such outcome, hope they are not enmasse enslaved by the spirit of this world, anyway even used as geopolitical argument for Russia to survive any future western temptation only greater consolidation of the power is way to go, and if that is through Christocentric manner that would be ideal, till some extent I can argue that also now this is the case, but is one thing when the Tsar is bound by Consecration by The Church completely different when derive own sovereignty from the masses, I'll stop here so I would not expand this argument till eschatology and causality, and will say we are living on tin ice in this time of history as east and west where there is no one happy solution for all like some euroatlantic determinists dream while chasing their utopian lusts for technocratic new world order, hm just imagine they wanted to balance and live the world to enhance itself as it wants ...
annatar1914 wrote: and that the Earth is the center of the Universe, which rotates around it.
again sorry for my interruption about DostoevSki and his mental stamina, for my assertion tho there is nice thread where we can eventually continue deconstructing my point ...
now here think would be interesting to ask for more clarification of the the next line from the first post in this one ...
this is biblical allegory  and was never ecclesiological issue in the Early Church especially not on east, nor was flat earth too  yet there is wide popular misconception that this was case, hm probably due to more aristotelian mood among some scholars on east this was taken as probable geocentrism, but as I am aware was never theological orthodox issue how big or small allegory is in question ...
“And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”
Odiseizam wrote:regarding this thread I can say Byzant started to decline when the paleloque dinasty started to embrace western trends namely western heraldry i.e. when substituted The Cross with the twoheaded eagle  unfortunately the same curse followed Russia when Ivan coz his spouse took the same emblem  after what followed the surge of westernization with all its neopagan vices in Russia, surely some will say nonsenses but I'll remind all even small tagging on personal arm has own aethereal reflex what about imperial one i.e. the bearers of Orthodoxy to have at least western neopagan heraldry stamp while at worst an dualistic symbol from central asia! probably later the Church on east willing to point to belongingness to byzant dwelt in some tradition of using the same symbol officially especially mids the ottoman realm, but I am in opinion that until Russia and the rest slavic countries dont dispose the same curse Orthodoxy will never see unification as in time of Byzant! I'll remind again dont underestimate the power of tagging even the same was superficial through sculptural simulacrums i.e. if it wasnt important issue wouldnt reach mids western neopaganism to such heraldry tradition on west! simply we live in space that breaths in and from the spiritual world where not always and everywhere dwelt goodness, even there are astrodynamicists if you like more onpoint arguments  yet the easiest way of recognizing the power of symbols is Christianity  and why we are blinded for this kind of knowledge hm as metaphysics if it was broadly understood then freemasons would have issue with their tags at least 
Jeff Bezos invented the COVID virus. Prove me wro[…]
Is that the hook up sites your talking about? Jus[…]
The capital rioters were just gullible. I[…]
Of course. But it's a specific kind of propagan[…]