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#15195526
AFAIK wrote:Image
Self immolation of the Vietnamese monk Thích Quảng

This is just another example of how much good America has done, that is often not widely known about. Thích Quảng was of course protesting against the tyrannical fascistic Papist regime of Ngo Dinh Diem. He was removed and eliminated later in that year in a CIA backed coup. It was of course hard for the good Buddhists of Vietnam to deal with both the Papist terrorists and the Communist terrorists.
#15195558
AFAIK wrote:If large numbers of people committed suicide out of despair regarding ACC that would put pressure on society and the gov't to more aggressively curb emissions. Suicide is a popular form of protest especially in the form of self immolation. The Arab Spring began when a young man publicly set himself on fire and over a hundred Tibetans have burnt themselves in protest of Beijing's occupation.

Image
Self immolation of the Vietnamese monk Thích Quảng

Do you really think that America would care if a few people burned themselves up in protest.
No, America would rally around the [false] 'reports' that they were all just crazy nut jobs.
Like they did to the unabomber.

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#15195586
Steve_American wrote:You just said this to me, so I'll say it to you again,"No, that's just more absurd garbage from you with no basis in fact."

I repeat: I just got through identifying the relevant facts. That's how this works. You make silly claims with no basis in fact, and then I identify the facts that prove your claims are silly. It's always the same.
#15195605
Truth To Power wrote:I repeat: I just got through identifying the relevant facts. That's how this works. You make silly claims with no basis in fact, and then I identify the facts that prove your claims are silly. It's always the same.

I repeat.
You just said this to me, so I'll say it to you again,"No, that's just more absurd garbage from you with no basis in fact."
#15195655
Steve_American wrote:I repeat.
You just said this to me, so I'll say it to you again,"No, that's just more absurd garbage from you with no basis in fact."

I repeat: I just got through identifying the relevant facts. That's how this works. You make silly claims with no basis in fact, and then I identify the facts that prove your claims are silly. It's always the same.

You don't seem able to grok the difference between my posts, which identify the facts that constitute the basis for my statements, and your posts, which make claims for which you do not identify any factual basis.
Last edited by Truth To Power on 24 Oct 2021 18:01, edited 1 time in total.
#15195658
Rich wrote:This is just another example of how much good America has done, that is often not widely known about. Thích Quảng was of course protesting against the tyrannical fascistic Papist regime of Ngo Dinh Diem. He was removed and eliminated later in that year in a CIA backed coup. It was of course hard for the good Buddhists of Vietnam to deal with both the Papist terrorists and the Communist terrorists.


The Papist are only "terrorist" when they are lenient to Communist terrorists.

It should be noted that Papist have been one of the staunchest anti-Communist-terrorism fighters (including Jimmy Lai, Martin Lee and Joseph Zen).

Now? The Communist-controlled tyrant Carrie Lam is a Papist.

I guess it's all because recent Popes (especially Francis) appeal to poor people more.

EDIT: Do not get me wrong, it is the teaching of the Bible that sinners are the ones who need the salvation most, and self-righteous ones are those who are most easily rejecting salvation. However, when it comes to spreading the Gospel, I guess we human beings are often not that good in distinguishing "giving opportunities of salvation" from "appeasing unrepentant sinners", which is why atrocities are so rampant despite the best intention of many Papists.
#15195712
Truth To Power wrote:I repeat: I just got through identifying the relevant facts. That's how this works. You make silly claims with no basis in fact, and then I identify the facts that prove your claims are silly. It's always the same.

You don't seem able to grok the difference between my posts, which identify the facts that constitute the basis for my statements, and your posts, which make claims for which you do not identify any factual basis.


I repeat.
TtP said this to me, so I'll say it about him again,"No, what TtP says is mostly just more absurd garbage from him with no basis in fact. That is assertions without evidence or erroneous arguments based on alternate facts."
. . . I'm sick and tired with having to respond to his garbage arguments. When he says some thing interesting I'll reply.
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#15195769
World temperature was way hotter in the Cretaceous than now. It was also considerably hotter for most of the Palaeogene. Hominoids may have developed in the Neogene - Quaternary, but its notable that most of our development was near to the equator.
#15195775
Rich wrote:World temperature was way hotter in the Cretaceous than now. It was also considerably hotter for most of the Palaeogene.

We're in an Ice Age, @Rich. It began about two and a half million years ago, and it's still ongoing. It is highly unusual in the overall history of our planet for there to be year-round ice on both poles. Highly unusual.

Hominoids may have developed in the Neogene - Quaternary, but its notable that most of our development was near to the equator.

It is also notable that our entire evolutionary history from homo erectus on has been during the Quaternary Ice Age. And it's also no accident that agriculture, urbanisation and industrial production only got off the ground after the end of the last glacial stadial. Geography may be fate, but climate is fate too.
#15195778
Potemkin wrote:We're in an Ice Age, @Rich. It began about two and a half million years ago, and it's still ongoing. It is highly unusual in the overall history of our planet for there to be year-round ice on both poles. Highly unusual.


Good to year. Perhaps its time for me to set off a tire fire in my back yard.
#15195865
Potemkin wrote:We're in an Ice Age, @Rich. It began about two and a half million years ago, and it's still ongoing. It is highly unusual in the overall history of our planet for there to be year-round ice on both poles. Highly unusual.


It is also notable that our entire evolutionary history from homo erectus on has been during the Quaternary Ice Age. And it's also no accident that agriculture, urbanisation and industrial production only got off the ground after the end of the last glacial stadial. Geography may be fate, but climate is fate too.


Well, that may be true, or maybe not.
However, I saw and posted here about a climate scientist who has shown that all but the last interstadials have had the same general temp profile. It is that--- the temp increases rapidly from the lows typical of the time when ice is 2 miles thick to melt the ice. This was forced by the Earth's orbital cyclical changes, but this triggers an increase in CO2 in the air, and this is the main cause of the temp increases

This goes on until the Earth reaches a max. temp of about 1 or 2 deg. C lower than we see now, and then the temp slowly falls for about 10K years, when the temp begins to fall much faster. This may be because somehow CO2 in the air begins to decrease.

This climate scientist says that clearly the last 10K to 12K years have not followed the pattern for the previous 15 interstadials. For the last 10K years the temp has been very flat compared to the normal swings we see in all other parts of the temp curve. He claims that this is a result of humans discovering how to grow crops and tend cattle. He says growing rice and cattle releases methane to the air. He says that other crops add more CO2 because of replacing forest trees with crop fields. We have liked forest floor soils better than farming grassland soils, at least until steel plows could be made. This is because plowing up grass is much harder and the grass keeps coming back from the roots. Also, forests indicate more rainfall, grass being more tolerant of low rainfall.
. . . Yes, there were small changes like the Medieval Optimum and the Little Ice Age.
. . . He says that he can show why we can see those specific swings. IIRC, the Medieval Optimum was caused by a general increase in population. Remember these are for the whole world, not just Europe. IIRC, the Little Ice Age was caused by the Black Death, which reduced the world's population which reduced the area of crops, which let trees grow back, which removed CO2 from the air. Then the LIA ended in about 1800 as population recovered, especially the Br./Am. in N. America, who grew exponentially. This growth being exponentially, means it gets faster and faster. Also, Europeans were beginning to be burning coal by 1770.

The grand take away form his talk is that humans have been changing the climate for 10K years.

So, as of 2021 humans have added enough CO2 and GHG to the air to have ended the Ice Age. The Ice Age will not return for at least 30K and maybe 100K years even if there are just 1M humans left in the far north and south living in mud huts. It will take at least that long for nature to remove the excess CO2 from the air. [If my sources are correct.]
. . . If it does take 100K years then the next stadial cold period will be skipped, then the next interstadial warm period, and only then another Ice Age advance.

OTOH, if we save civilization and reduce the population to 2B, then we will keep all Ice Age advances from happening by fine tuning the CO2 in the air to make our climate "just right".


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Last edited by Steve_American on 26 Oct 2021 10:49, edited 1 time in total.
#15195866
Steve_American wrote:Well, that may be true, or maybe not.
However, I saw and posted here about a climate scientist who has shown that all but the last interstadials have had the same general temp profile.

Agreed. The present interstadial is unusual compared to the previous ones.

It is that--- the temp increases rapidly from the lows typical of the time when ice is 2 miles thick to melt the ice. This was forced by the Earth's orbital cyclical changes, but this triggers an increase in CO2 in the air, and this is the main cause of the temp increases

Not quite. The global warming which ends stadials and the cooling which begins them have nothing to do with CO2. Google 'Milankovich cycles' for more details.

This goes on until the Earth reaches a max. temp of about 1 or 2 deg. C lower than we see now, and then the temp slowly falls for about 10K years, when the temp begins to fall much faster.

Correct.

This may be because somehow CO2 in the air begins to decrease.

No, it isn't.

This climate scientist says that clearly the last 10K to 12K years have not followed the pattern for the previous 15 interstadials. For the last 10K years the temp has been very flat compared to the normal swings we see in all other parts of the temp curve. He claims that this is a result of humans discovering how to grow crops and tend cattle. He says growing rice and cattle releases methane to the air. He says that other crops add more CO2 because of replacing forest trees with crop fields. We have liked forest floor soils better than farming grassland soils, at least until steel plows could be made. This is because plowing up grass is much harder and the grass keeps coming back from the roots. Also, forests indicate more rainfall, grass being more tolerant of low rainfall.
. . . Yes, there were small changes like the Medieval Optimum and the Little Ice Age.
. . . He says that he can show why we can see those specific swings. IIRC, the Medieval Optimum was caused by a general increase in population. Remember these are for the whole world, not just Europe. IIRC, the Little Ice Age was caused by the Black Death, which reduced the world's population which reduced the area of crops, which let trees grow back, which removed CO2 from the air. Then the LIA ended in about 1800 as population recovered, especially the Br./Am. in N. America, who grew exponentially. This growth being exponentially, means it gets faster and faster. Also, Europeans were beginning to be burning coal by 1770.

The grand take away form his talk is that humans have been changing the climate for 10K years.

Agreed.

So, as of 2021 humans have added enough CO2 and GHG to the air to have ended the Ice Age.

Nonsense. We are still in an Ice Age, right now. The present warm spell which started about 20 thousand years ago is merely an interstadial in an Ice Age. We haven't ended the present 2.5 million year old Ice Age, and I seriously doubt that we will ever be capable of doing so.

The Ice Age will not return for at least 30K and maybe 100K years even if there are just 1M humans left in the far north and south living in mud huts. It will take at least that long for nature to remove the excess CO2 from the air. [If my sources are correct.]
. . . If it does take 100K years then the next stadial cold period will be skipped, then the next interstadial warm period, and only then another Ice Age advance.

You seem to be confusing the concept of an 'Ice Age' with the concept of an 'interstadial'. The present Ice Age is still ongoing, and will likely last for tens of millions of years.

OTOH, if we save civilization and reduce the population ro 2B, then we will keep all Ice Age advances from happening by fine tuning the CO2 in the air to make our climate "just right".


.

Ha! Good luck with that.... :)
#15195871
Steve_American wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yze1YAz_LYM

One minute 26 and the bullshit starts. "I needed to eat". You hear this crap all the time in the open-source community, as a justification for getting a regular job or various money making scams. Virtually no adult in prosperous western countries is remotely in danger of starving to death. If the Bohemian artists of the 19th century could get away with out doing a regular job, then a citizen of western country sure can. No you're lying the reason you went for the paid job is not in order to survive, but because you wanted a more expensive life style.

This is important. Its very important because until people come to terms and accept the incredible selfishness of human beings and also own the selfishness in themselves and the groups with which they identify, there can be no serious discussion of what to do about green house gas emissions, the environment or any of the other major social political issues that face us.
#15195873
@Potemkin,

We just disagree. In the video Dr. Britt, says that the 1M years play of the Ice Age as a whole is a result of unusually high mountains being thrust up as India collides with Asia. This exposes eroded rock to the air, where it reacts with the air to remove CO2 from the air.
. . . We are adding CO2 to the air. If we add just the right amount we should be able to stay in an interstadial for a long time.

So, the Ice Age is a result of the Earth's orbital cycles which normally don't cause ice formation because the effect is too small to cool the world enough, being combined with the falling CO2 level caused by the weathering of the rocks in those high mountains, which then causes the temps to fall.

Also, the orbital cycles are not enough to cause the formation of ice sheets 2 miles thick. To get that we need the CO2 levels to drop as a result, which cools the Earth. IIRC, the CO2 levels follow the temps down. This why I said the the onset on an ice advance is caused or triggered by the cycles, but that CO2 is also involved because the CO2 level does track down parallel to the temps on the graphs.
.
#15195875
Steve_American wrote:@Potemkin,

We just disagree. In the video Dr. Britt, says that the 1M years play of the Ice Age as a whole is a result of unusually high mountains being thrust up as India collides with Asia. This exposes eroded rock to the air, where it reacts with the air to remove CO2 from the air.

This is certainly part of what triggers the onset of an Ice Age. There is also the point that the elevated level of the land after orogeny gives glaciers a better environment on which to form and to persist. It also doesn't hurt that most of the land masses right now are in the northern hemisphere and far enough north to give lots of land for glaciers to advance across. Lots of factors came together at the right moment to create the Earth's present Ice Age. Milankovitch cycles don't create or end an Ice Age on their own - after all, the cycles are always at work, yet the Earth has been ice-free for most of its geological history. No, the Milankovitch cycles just regulate the advance and retreat of the glaciers - the stadials and the interstadials - of an already existing Ice Age. But the CO2 levels are usually just a small part of that. Until we came along of course....

. . . We are adding CO2 to the air. If we add just the right amount we should be able to stay in an interstadial for a long time.

We've probably extended the duration of our present interstadial - it may be up to 50,000 years before the glaciers advance again. But they will advance again....

So, the Ice Age is a result of the Earth's orbital cycles which normally don't cause ice formation because the effect is too small to cool the world enough, being combined with the falling CO2 level caused by the weathering of the rocks in those high mountains, which then causes the temps to fall.

Also, the orbital cycles are not enough to cause the formation of ice sheets 2 miles thick. To get that we need the CO2 levels to drop as a result, which cools the Earth. IIRC, the CO2 levels follow the temps down. This why I said the the onset on an ice advance is caused or triggered by the cycles, but that CO2 is also involved because the CO2 level does track down parallel to the temps on the graphs.
.

The CO2 levels usually track the formation of the ice sheets, and provide a reinforcing effect, as you say. But the CO2 levels are not usually a driving factor in either the onset of an Ice Age or the onset of interstadials within an Ice Age. This seems to have only happened with the rise of human industrial civilisation - and a case could be made that this started even with the Neolithic Revolution....
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