The Gender Partition in the Work Place - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

All general discussion about politics that doesn't belong in any of the other forums.

Moderator: PoFo Political Circus Mods

#15200837
An insurance business magazine company posted this article. I am curious to hear other peoples thoughts on this notion of a "gender partition:"

An academic has claimed that male executives are avoiding offering their female colleagues help for fear of facing sexual harassment allegations.

In her new book, Sex and the Office, US research scholar Kim Elsesser said that women are missing out because their more senior male colleagues are reluctant to mentor them in case their actions are misinterpreted.

Elsesser claimed that this “sex partition” prevents women from reaching senior corporate positions, with male bosses even fearful of holding one-to-one meetings with women in more junior roles.

“They’re afraid that an offhand remark will be misinterpreted as sexual harassment or that their friendliness will be mistaken for romantic interest,” the book’s description states.

According to Elsesser, women are consequently missing out on some of the networking opportunities enjoyed by their male counterparts.

She said that attempted to increase awareness of sexual harassment over the last two decades have left male workers fearing they could be accused of harassing women, so befriend only other men in their workplace.


In the book, Elsesser gives an example of a male entry-level employee who discovers a common interest with a male senior manager, and as such forms a bond which leads to the manager sharing advice that helps the male worker get ahead in the company.

She suggests that had the entry-level employee been female, she would have been less likely to discover the shared interest and less likely to meet up outside of work to discuss it, causing her to miss out on the informal mentoring relationship.

“In order to avoid any suggestion of workplace romance or sexual harassment, opposite-sex co-workers are shying away from non-essential interactions, creating a barrier between men and women at work,” she wrote.

“These barriers between sexes that get in the way of developing cross-sex friendships make up what I call the sex partition.”

Elsesser suggested that training on sexual harassment awareness should also look at what is not sexual harassment, and that firms should actively seek to bring both sexes together to break down the “sex partition”.

She also suggested scrapping women-only networking events, having psychologists help lawyers to draft employee guidelines, and introducing long lunch tables in workplace canteens.


https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us ... 25691.aspx
#15200856
tomskunk wrote:An insurance business magazine company posted this article. I am curious to hear other peoples thoughts on this notion of a "gender partition:"



https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us ... 25691.aspx


Looked up the research article , read it (it's not very long) " The glass partition: Obstacles to cross-sex friendships at work"

The actual research was just on interviews just 20 men. It's pretty light weight research, though admittedly it's difficult area though what you want is long study about attitudes and relationships.

I thk the unspoken premise of the study that cross sex relationships were flourishing before this is highly questionable. As it;s stationary snapshot there absolutely no evidence of less or more cross sex friendships at work.
#15200862
I wonder how many jobs women were denied because men think women are incapable vs how many jobs women were given because a man though they were hotter than a man.

Hey maybe if women wanted to be treated more equitably by men they'd stop wearing lipstick, high heels, and skirts to work. If women dressed and looked like crap I guarantee most would be treated just like a man. But they won't because they want to look hot in case they meet some guy at work they want to bone.

On the other hand, i've worked with men who are just pigs.
#15200875
Unthinking Majority wrote:I wonder how many jobs women were denied because men think women are incapable vs how many jobs women were given because a man though they were hotter than a man.

Hey maybe if women wanted to be treated more equitably by men they'd stop wearing lipstick, high heels, and skirts to work. If women dressed and looked like crap I guarantee most would be treated just like a man. But they won't because they want to look hot in case they meet some guy at work they want to bone.

On the other hand, i've worked with men who are just pigs.


Yeah If it weren't for all those men wearing suits, people could be hired by merit. We need to stop men dressing sexy at work and abusing their looks to get jobs they are not remotely qualified for,
#15200910
@Unthinking Majority

Unthinking Majority wrote:Hey maybe if women wanted to be treated more equitably by men they'd stop wearing lipstick, high heels, and skirts to work. If women dressed and looked like crap I guarantee most would be treated just like a man. But they won't because they want to look hot in case they meet some guy at work they want to bone.


Yeah, women dress hot and have the sexual power and know it. But they also want the power of money and status too. They want their cake and ice cream both. But it seems it has been very difficult for them to get both their cake and ice cream. The guys they don't want to bang at work its "sexual harassment!" But if they meet like a tall dude with 6 pack abs and a ton of money, then all of a sudden it's not "sexual harassment" it's let's bang each other in the workplace secretly!

I remember one workplace I worked at where this happened and the guy was fired for banging a hot chick at work. It was consensual sex though. Even if a guy gets some consensual sex he still can't win it seems. At least not in this guy's case since he got fired from his job banging the hot chick on the job. I think he got fired from the job because he was in a position of power and I think she got transferred to a different branch location. It was consensual sex though from what I understand. It was a mess.
#15200913
It may play a part but while there may be some anxiety it seems like a bit of a cop out on the part of those men.
But think there are bigger issues than women reaching senior positions like the structural relations around caring for dependents such as children. That has long been on of the biggest obstacles for women and they’re framed as dependents themselves when they take up the responsibility of raising a kid where men are improving in stepping in but still not dramatically enough.
#15200919
This research rings true with me.

I have friends that are directors and even a VP. Have told me they do have a fear of being falsely accused. A good friend of mine always leaves his office door wide open when having a meeting with a woman. He also goes out of his way to speak louder and so people outside can hear what they are talking about. I can certainly see how this fear would lead to their interactions with women being more limited, and thus could limit a woman's career prospects.

Personally, I avoid ever having lunch alone with a woman at work. Though, my reasons for that is that I don't want false rumors started about me. I've seen such rumors start in the office place when nothing was going on between the man and woman.

Yes, it is obvious, many men are fearful of being falsely accused of something, or have some off hand comment interpreted horribly.

Frankly, I don't blame men for feeling this way.
#15200922
I remember one workplace I worked at where this happened and the guy was fired for banging a hot chick at work. It was consensual sex though. Even if a guy gets some consensual sex he still can't win it seems. At least not in this guy's case since he got fired from his job banging the hot chick on the job. I think he got fired from the job because he was in a position of power and I think she got transferred to a different branch location. It was consensual sex though from what I understand. It was a mess.


It's good to have boundaries. I cannot understand anyone who wants to mix business with pleasure.

I remember Mala saying to me, "What you do at work, should stay at work. You keep your work and home life separate." Some people hang out after work, I refuse to do that. Once I'm off work, I get to be the true me, the relaxed me and I just want to lighten up and not think about work. And I wouldn't want anyone from work talking about my home stuff while we're at work. I need my privacy.

I have had to work closely with men and we both understand that we can be friends but with precautions. I learned how to create a chummy atmosphere like we are classmates or teammates. The men treat me respectfully and I act professional and cool. I refuse to flirt with anyone or dress sexy at the office. I just dress professional and not show skin. I refuse to wear skirts and panty hose. It is pant suits for me all the time. I can wear hoodies at work so that's a plus.

If a woman uses her feminine wiles to attract men and power, then men will be wary and uncomfortable. If you're like me and you prefer to treat everyone like a classmate or a team player, then everyone can see that that's what it is. I can chat like a college kid. I don't talk sophisticated or flirtatious. I'm a tomboy and I just get focused on my work. I don't manipulate or try to use tricks to get what I want. I work hard to earn promotions and raises. If my effort is not good enough, I need to start looking for another job.
#15200925
tomskunk wrote:@Wellsy

But this book that the article discusses is written by an accomplished academic who is a feminist herself. Is she wrong?


But what actual research was done to support this claim? She interviewed just some 21 man and most of them personal contacts. It's not a great methodology
#15200926
tomskunk wrote:@pugsville

Ohh so you are just trying to downplay and discredit any sort of gender partition in the workplace even existing. If that is the case, then why are women still paid less than men?


Because men put out more often and get all the money though their sexual wiles.
#15200928
tomskunk wrote:@Wellsy

But this book that the article discusses is written by an accomplished academic who is a feminist herself. Is she wrong?

Yeah thats part of my knee jerk distaste in that she isn’t entirely wrong that there anxieties of mixing but her focus is that of a very liberal feminist in her focus on women being in seniority. Which is fine.
Just not my preferred kind of feminist politics or focus.

Although a lot of cross sex interactions and such is amplified in part because of the distance and anxiety that is in part produced by rumours let alone claims of sexual harassment. I have distanced myself from friends because of too many sex jokes from friends. It made it a problem.
#15200941
@MistyTiger

MistyTiger wrote:It's good to have boundaries. I cannot understand anyone who wants to mix business with pleasure.

I remember Mala saying to me, "What you do at work, should stay at work. You keep your work and home life separate." Some people hang out after work, I refuse to do that. Once I'm off work, I get to be the true me, the relaxed me and I just want to lighten up and not think about work. And I wouldn't want anyone from work talking about my home stuff while we're at work. I need my privacy.

I have had to work closely with men and we both understand that we can be friends but with precautions. I learned how to create a chummy atmosphere like we are classmates or teammates. The men treat me respectfully and I act professional and cool. I refuse to flirt with anyone or dress sexy at the office. I just dress professional and not show skin. I refuse to wear skirts and panty hose. It is pant suits for me all the time. I can wear hoodies at work so that's a plus.

If a woman uses her feminine wiles to attract men and power, then men will be wary and uncomfortable. If you're like me and you prefer to treat everyone like a classmate or a team player, then everyone can see that that's what it is. I can chat like a college kid. I don't talk sophisticated or flirtatious. I'm a tomboy and I just get focused on my work. I don't manipulate or try to use tricks to get what I want. I work hard to earn promotions and raises. If my effort is not good enough, I need to start looking for another job.


I wish we had more women like you in the workplace. I would get along really well and easily with you as a co-worker. There are times where it's really hard to have women in the workplace because some act wishy-washy, funny, weird and just create a lot of problems and break apart the teamwork and cohesion in the workplace. You know you can't have that to run a successful business, you know? I think a woman like you should be promoted into a position of power and trust. Because you seem to have a better understanding how the risks that men face when dealing with other women that just simply refuse to see the other side of the equation. I imagine the guys at your work feel like they can actually communicate with you without worry or fear. Women are becoming more feared in the workplace and so guys are deciding to keep more of a distance from them to protect themselves.

I don't mind seeing women in charge or being in positions of power. I just want to not have to fear them or wonder if what I said was taken the wrong way when nothing was intended. So, you know, the default mode is trying to avoid contact or conversation with women in the workplace just to be absolutely safe so you can protect your career and livelihood. That way it's impossible to be successfully accused of sexual harassment. Such accusations are not a game for those on the receiving end and it could create a reaction among men to bunker down to protect themselves but that in turn can harm women's ability to move up on the corporate ladder because it makes networking hard for them.
#15200944
@MistyTiger

I absolutely agree with you too. Work is work and people don't need to date anybody they work with. That just introduces all kinds of potential problems. I like to keep my work life completely separate from my private life. At work, we are just professionals and team members. Nothing else. It's business. That's how it should be. You are there to make money and help the company make money.
#15201104
Personally I don’t get the anxiety about working with women in the work place. I worked at a prison primarily with women in my department and currently teach third grade as the only male teacher.
I don’t have worries about the women.
In fact I work somewhat closely with one woman in particular who is my mentor for my first year teaching.

Also note that either sex is more prone to infidelity the more power they have.
https://leeds-faculty.colorado.edu/mcgrawp/PDF/Lammers.Stoker.Jordan.Pollmann.Stapel.2011.pdf
To which I am not always sympathetic to somehow sequences for someones professionalism and sometimes questionable conduct when they have more power in the situation.

The anxiety over accusations of harassment and rape never present themselves for me as I don't see them as a probable problem for me. If Inwere to suspect as much it would be primarily with creepy women with boundary issues, same as with weirdo creeper men actually being likely to harass.
False accusations happen but not nearly as much as actual harassment for me to be anxious about it.
It seems to have more traction in particular areas of life among men perhaps but it's an alien experience.
#15201108
Wellsy wrote:Personally I don’t get the anxiety about working with women in the work place. I worked at a prison primarily with women in my department and currently teach third grade as the only male teacher.
I don’t have worries about the women.
In fact I work somewhat closely with one woman in particular who is my mentor for my first year teaching.

Also note that either sex is more prone to infidelity the more power they have.
https://leeds-faculty.colorado.edu/mcgrawp/PDF/Lammers.Stoker.Jordan.Pollmann.Stapel.2011.pdf
To which I am not always sympathetic to somehow sequences for someones professionalism and sometimes questionable conduct when they have more power in the situation.

The anxiety over accusations of harassment and rape never present themselves for me as I don't see them as a probable problem for me. If Inwere to suspect as much it would be primarily with creepy women with boundary issues, same as with weirdo creeper men actually being likely to harass.
False accusations happen but not nearly as much as actual harassment for me to be anxious about it.
It seems to have more traction in particular areas of life among men perhaps but it's an alien experience.


Good to hear. That said, seems like those in fear are those who have more to lose (i.e. people higher up in the company). Maybe these are guilty consciousnesses speaking. :eek:

Sidenote, I suggest you call all the women you work with "bitches".
#15201110
@Rancid @Wellsy

But again, these are finding by an academic who studies these sorts of issues. Personally, even if I am not a boss, I do feel like I have something to lose. First and foremost, my reputation as a good person. That matters to me. Secondly, my job, especially if I like the job I am working in, even if I am somebody who is not a position of power. I value my reputation and my job, in particularly, a job I enjoy.

Given that is the case, sometimes you can be friendly towards a woman just to be only friends and nothing more and she could read too much into that and think you are trying to flirt or hit on her when you are not. Then, that's where the accusations could potentially fly and you're doomed. However, if you only interact with women in the workplace at the bare minimum level to where only when you absolutely have to and keep witnesses around, it makes it near impossible for her to level those accusations because there is always somebody else around to witness the interaction and if she were to try to say you were hitting on her, that other person can step in and say "I don't think that was his intent based on what I saw." You see what I mean, right?

And I am sure, there have been times where a guy has just trying to be friendly and not hit on a woman and she read too much into that and accused him and he was doomed. Especially if he didn't have any witnesses around. And if he does have witnesses around he could sue for defamation of character and subpoena those witnesses at the civil trial. This also why for single guys out there, I suggest a cup of coffee only for the first few dates with women. Because you might not really know that woman and if you have just a cup of coffee for the first few dates in a public place coffee shop, it would be hard for anybody to argue that a guy was buying a meal to get something out of a woman she might not want to give or that he harassed her because everybody was there witnessing the whole interaction themselves. You know what I am saying?

http://timeline.sakura.ne.jp/02/n/1/9/6/3/n1963.ht[…]

It's Germany's call, and Germany wants is because […]

Why is Russia so poor?

Rancid said corruption, I will say mindset. Ac[…]

That is what I have never understood. U.S. citize[…]