[ckaihatsu]

Why is or isn't a fetus a person?

(I think this has already been covered earlier in the thread.)

[Pants-of-dog]

And yet you don't care at all about the rights of the child. This is a conflict of rights.

No. This is incorrect. I care just as much as if the child were born. This is why I think the unborn should have the same rights as the born.

But you seem to want to disregard the rights of the pregnant person.

Why should pregnant people not have the same rights as the rest of us?

[ckaihatsu]

You gonna *name* it, for propaganda purposes -- ?

The whole anti-abortion *industry* is made entirely out of *political hay*. It's the cult of the fetus.

[ckaihatsu]

Jesus that was fun. So what's everyone doing this weekend?


= D

[ckaihatsu]

It's the cult of the fetus.

Look out, Stars and Stripes -- !

[XogGyux]

An adult in a coma hooked up to machines to survive that has a great chance to come out of that coma is still considered a human. A fetus is not a kidney, it's a stupid argument. At 12 weeks all vital organs are in place and it's had a heartbeat for weeks.

But that machine is another woman being in this case. A human, a woman. If I connected someone with weak heart to your aorta so your heart kept the other guy alive, how much would you fancy that you didn't have a say on when to stop...
Heartbeat is not a measurement of whether it is a baby or not. And we know this because if we take out that 12 week out collection of tissue incapable of sustaining life on its own. How can you call a collection of tissue a heart when it cannot keep the person alive? How can you call a collection of tissue a lung when it is incapable of breathing? How can you call something a brain when it does not have appropriate nerve tracks?
It might have the potential to eventually become a baby... so does a single sperm, I guess every time you masturbate you are literally aborting billions of babies.

An adult dying naturally is different than someone killing that person unnaturally. What's your point? Hey crib death happens sometimes so its ok to kill your 2 month old baby sitting in the crib?

LOL what sort of standard is that. It is less painful, less important, less significant, if it is natural vs assisted?
I guess if you come to my hospital and drop dead, I should not do CPR on you because "it was a natural death"? How should I dare revive you from your natural death? Why would I give you an "unnatural" aspirin to prevent a "natural" stroke? or heart attack? Why take an "unnatural" COVID vaccine, to protect you from the natural COVID?

Those things are child abuse and should be illegal.

What? Drinking alcohol during pregnancy?
Where would you stop the line? Alcohol is teratogenic, it can cause harm to the unborn child. So lets criminalize a mother from drinking alcohol right? How about medications? We can criminalize those as well? Mother has seizure? Too bad, anti-seizure medications can cause harm to the fetus, I guess that incubator mother must suffer some extra seizures and some extra brain damage to protect the fetus.
But why stop at medications? We should ensure the optimal health status of the mother, so we must forcefeed that mother the best quality food. If the mother is a picky eater and does not like vegetables? TOO FUCKING BAD, we will put a tube on her stomach and feed her some green shit. And if the mother is vegan? Cannot afford to be b12 and iron deficient, must force-feed some cow meat to that mother....
We must also ensure the mother is doing the right amount of exercise, we will force the mother to exercise 30mins a day, but we will also prohibit that she does anything risky, so the moment she is diagnosed with a pregnancy, she should put her life in hold, no more hiking, no more jumping around, etc.

Whattaboutism.

Sure, perhaps it is whataboutism. But it does not make it any less real. How much is spent in this country for this abortion nonsense? Billions, thats the answer. You know how many people you can feed or cure of mundane, deadly diseases (and/or prevent them) with such resources? I am sorry but I don't buy for a second that you care about human life. A 5-year-old parasite-stricken boy is an actual human being, a 12-week fetus is a far less certain case.

Why is or isn't a fetus a person?

This is an irrelevant question. Let's say it is. Should you be forced to keep me alive by connecting your arteries and veins to mines? If my rights to live (and I think it is indisputable that i am "a person") cannot override your rights of body autonomy. Why do you think a fetus, not even born, has MORE rights than I do?

[wat0n]

This is an irrelevant question. Let's say it is. Should you be forced to keep me alive by connecting your arteries and veins to mines? If my rights to live (and I think it is indisputable that i am "a person") cannot override your rights of body autonomy. Why do you think a fetus, not even born, has MORE rights than I do?

So it's OK to you if those who don't want to vaccinate for whatever reason, don't? I mean, their bodily autonomy is also affected here, after all...

[XogGyux]

So it's OK to you if those who don't want to vaccinate for whatever reason, don't? I mean, their bodily autonomy is also affected here, after all...

Have you seen me ever claim that people that don't get vaccinated should go to jail or something?
I think they got the right to be stupid. And I have the right to make fun of them for being stupid.

[Unthinking Majority]

Why is or isn't a fetus a person?

A fetus is or isn't a person whenever it's convenient.

[XogGyux]

A fetus is or isn't a person whenever it's convenient.

It is not a person. But even if it was, it wouldn't make an ounce of difference. I cannot get your kidney without your permission and approval. My right to live does not supersede your right to your own body. End of discussion.

[ckaihatsu]

Why do you think a fetus, not even born, has MORE rights than I do?

Because of 1776, braw.


x D

[wat0n]

Have you seen me ever claim that people that don't get vaccinated should go to jail or something?
I think they got the right to be stupid. And I have the right to make fun of them for being stupid.

Fair, but should they be incentivized to vaccinate? And by this I mean facing consequences if they don't, maybe like Germany and Austria are doing.

[XogGyux]

Fair, but should they be incentivized to vaccinate? And by this I mean facing consequences if they don't, maybe like Germany and Austria are doing.

Sure, why not? What is wrong with incentivizing something for the common good?

[wat0n]

Sure, why not? What is wrong with incentivizing something for the common good?

So why not incentivize people to accept limits on their bodily autonomy to save other persons like the ones you mentioned or... Well, if the fetus is indeed a person, carrying a pregnancy to term?

Personally, as I said, I don't think it's an easy call. Of course if the fetus isn't a person then you can do whatever you want with it, such as aborting it and then having a BBQ with whatever remains after. Or turning that into dog food. Or experimenting with it, without asking for anyone's consent.

But if it is... Hmmmm

[ckaihatsu]

if the fetus is indeed a person,

Our best scientists are working on this one.


= D

[wat0n]

That seems like an ethical, not a technical question.

[Unthinking Majority]

Sure, perhaps it is whataboutism. But it does not make it any less real. How much is spent in this country for this abortion nonsense? Billions, thats the answer. You know how many people you can feed or cure of mundane, deadly diseases (and/or prevent them) with such resources? I am sorry but I don't buy for a second that you care about human life. A 5-year-old parasite-stricken boy is an actual human being, a 12-week fetus is a far less certain case.

Why would you assume I don't care about human beings? Go fuck yourself then, you don't know anything about me. You have no idea what i've done in my life to help other people.

[ckaihatsu]

That seems like an ethical, not a technical question.

*Or*:

Heartbeat is not a measurement of whether it is a baby or not. And we know this because if we take out that 12 week out collection of tissue incapable of sustaining life on its own. How can you call a collection of tissue a heart when it cannot keep the person alive? How can you call a collection of tissue a lung when it is incapable of breathing? How can you call something a brain when it does not have appropriate nerve tracks?

viewtopic.php?p=15201144#p15201144

[Unthinking Majority]

It is not a person. But even if it was, it wouldn't make an ounce of difference. I cannot get your kidney without your permission and approval. My right to live does not supersede your right to your own body. End of discussion.

Go find me a doctor that would separate siamese twins if one of them depended on the other to live and thus would die if separated.

[wat0n]

How about a 24 weeks fetus. Is that a person? How about going full Rothbardian and being OK with neglecting a born baby? He would say parents have no obligation to care for a newborn, and had a right to refuse to feed the baby even if it would die as a result. That doesn't sound like "self-sustaining life" to me. Is that newborn a person? You will find those who will claim it's not.

What's the cutoff here?