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By Kon
#1079389
This is dated, but it comes straight from the source.

It is often believed that Christians believe that Zionism is positive no matter what denomination they belong to. Obviously this is incorrect because as we all know Benedict himself recieved an honourary anti apartheid wall passport from Abbas himself.

It is also interesting to note that you have reverends and church leaders in the USA supporting Zionism while people like Cardinal Michel Sabbah and his counterparts in other sects of Christianity in Palestine see things first hand are strongly opposed to Zionism/ support things such as the right of return.

Strange how you can have supposed Christians support a violent ethnic nationalist based ideology such as zionism, what is the opinion of others on the relation of Christianity and Jewish nationalism?
Last edited by Kon on 21 Dec 2006 01:19, edited 2 times in total.
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By Dan
#1079401
Strange how you can have supposed Christians support a violent ethnic nationalist based ideology such as Palestinian liberation. :hmm:

what is the opinion of others on e relation of Christianity and Jewish nationalism?

I think that for the most part it is based on incorrect eschatology.

Here's an interesting article on the issue:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html

That being said the Jews are God's chosen people, and those that bless them will be blessed and those that curse them will be cursed.

I support Zionism for political reasons; Israel is a bastion of freedom and prosperity in a sea of corrupt despotisms and butcherous Islamic theocracies.
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By Cost
#1079516
Strange how you can have supposed Christians support a violent ethnic nationalist based ideology such as Palestinian liberation.

The goal of liberating a people or country is not inherently violent - just look at the Free Tibet campaign, for example. Although much of the Palestinian campaign currently is violent, I don't suppose many Christians who oppose Israeli militarism support Palestinian militarism. To be anti-Zionist is also not to be an ethnic nationalist. While some Christians oppose Israeli Zionism, I am sure they would also like to see Jews and Palestinians living peacefully side by side, something which Zionism certainly seems to dispose altogether.
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By QatzelOk
#1079657
...the Jews are God's chosen people, and those that bless them will be blessed and those that curse them will be cursed.

Spiderman, Spiderman,
Does whatever a spider can
Spins a web, any size,
Catches thieves just like flies
Look Out!
Here comes the Spiderman.


I'm equally impressed with Judaism's spidey powers.
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By Dan
#1079829
I am sure they would also like to see Jews and Palestinians living peacefully side by side, something which Zionism certainly seems to dispose altogether.

I would like to see that, but the Palestinians seem to be working against that goal.

I support Israel's freedom of self-defence.
By Downside
#1079835
Christians who hate the Jews

http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=21

A doctrine going back to the early church fathers, suppressed after the Holocaust, had been revived under the influence of the middle east conflict. This doctrine is called replacement theology. In essence, this says the Jews have been replaced by the Christians in God’s favour and so all God’s promises to the Jews, including the land of Israel, have been inherited by Christianity.

Some evangelicals, by contrast, are ‘Christian Zionists’ who passionately support the State of Israel as the fulfilment of God’s Biblical promise to the Jews. But to the majority who have absorbed replacement theology, Zionism is racism and the Jewish state is illegitimate.

Church newspaper editors say they are intimidated by the overwhelming hostility to Israel and to the Jews from influential Christian figures, which makes balanced coverage of the middle east impossible. Clerics and lay people alike are saying openly that Israel should never have been founded at all. One church source said what he was hearing was a ‘throwback to the visceral anti-Judaism of the middle ages’.

At this juncture, a distinction is crucial. Criticism of Israel’s behaviour is perfectly legitimate. But a number of prominent Christians agree that a line is being crossed into anti-Jewish hatred. This is manifested by ascribing to every Israeli action malevolent motives while dismissing Palestinian terrorism and anti-Jewish diatribes; the belief that Jews should be denied the right to self-determination and their state dismantled; the conflation of Zionism and a ‘Jewish conspiracy’ of vested interests; and the disproportionate venom of the attacks.

‘When I hear ?the Jews? used as a term, my blood runs cold - and I’ve been hearing this far too often’, says Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Wales and a contender for the see of Canterbury. ‘Whenever I print anything sympathetic to Israel, I get deluged with complaints that I am Zionist and racist’, says Colin Blakely, editor of the Church of England Newspaper.

The reason is that Palestinian Christian revisionism has revived replacement theology. The catalyst for its re-emergence has been the attempt by Arab Christians to reinterpret Scripture in order to de-legitimise the Jews’ claim to the land of Israel. This has had a powerful effect upon the churches which, through humanitarian work among the Palestinians by agencies like Christian Aid, have been profoundly influenced by two clerics in particular.

The first is the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, Riah Abu El-Assal, a Palestinian who is intemperate in his attacks on Israel. ‘We interviewed Bishop Riah after some terrorist outrage in Israel’, says Colin Blakely, ‘and his line was that it was all the fault of the Jews. I was astounded.’

The bishop also has an astounding interpretation of the Old Testament. Last December, he claimed of Palestinian Christians: ‘We are the true Israel? no-one can deny me the right to inherit the promises, and after all the promises were first given to Abraham and Abraham is never spoken of in the Bible as a Jew?He is the father of the faithful.’

This view had now influenced not only whole denominations but the majority of Christian pilgrimage companies and many of the major mission and Christian aid organisations. One such outfit, he said, had sent every UK bishop a significant document outlining Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians, accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing and of systematically ‘Judaising’ Jerusalem.

David Ison, the canon of Exeter cathedral, took a party of pilgrims to the Holy Land in 2000 at the start of the current intifada. They had a Palestinian guide, visited only Christian sites in Arab east Jerusalem and the West Bank, and talked to virtually no Jews. ‘The Old Testament is a horrifying picture of genocide committed in God’s name’, he avers. ‘And genocide is now being waged in a long, slow way by Zionists against the Palestinians’.

The Bishop of Guildford, who is consistently hostile to Israel, shares the view that the Jews have no particular claim to the promised land. Christianity and Islam, he says, can lay equal claim. And although he says Israel’s existence is a reality that must be accepted, his ideal is very different. A separate Palestinian state would be merely a ‘first step’.

Stephen Sizer, vicar of Christ Church, Virginia Water is a leading crusader against Christian Zionism. He believes that God’s promises to the Jews have been inherited by Christianity, including the land of Israel.

He acknowledges that Israel has the right to exist since it was established by a United Nations resolution. But he also says it is ‘fundamentally an apartheid state because it is based on race,’ and ‘even worse than south Africa’.

Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity, has been addressing Christian groups up and down the country on the implications of 11 September. When he suggests there is a problem with aspects of Islam, he provokes uproar. His audiences blame Israel for Muslim anger; they want to abandon the Jewish state as a ‘dead’ part of Scripture and support ‘justice’ for the Palestinians instead. ‘What disturbs me at the moment is the very deeply-rooted anti-semitism latent in Britain and the west’, he says. ‘I simply hadn’t realised how deep within the English psyche is this fear of the power and influence of the Jews’.

Virtually to a man (and woman) the CofE’s hierarchy have completely swallowed the lies and libels of Palestinian propaganda. The visceral hatred of Israel felt by these churchmen is matched only by their stupendous ignorance of Israel’s history and present circumstances and the very close friendship between many in the CofE hierarchy and radical Palestinian Christian clerics such as Bishop Riah of Jerusalem, who have spent years attempting to provide a theological justification for writing Jews out of Israel’s historical script altogether.

In the debate Mr Maclouronne said that the Bishop of Jerusalem, the Right Rev Riah Hanna Abu El-Assal, had written to him urging the disinvestment cause.


Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, Riah Abu El-Assal,

August 25, 2006. 11:52:7

"THE JERUSALEM DECLARATION ON CHRISTIAN ZIONISM" - Statement by the Patriarch and Local Heads of Churches In Jerusalem
"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God." (Matthew 5:9)

Christian Zionism is a modern theological and political movement that embraces the most extreme ideological positions of Zionism, thereby becoming detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Israel. The Christian Zionist programme provides a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism. In its extreme form, it laces an emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today.

more

http://www.j-diocese.com/DiocesanNews/v ... 38#slbl238
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By Nattering Nabob
#1079976
My pastor (and many people in my "neck of the woods") believe that the end of the world is at hand (soon, soon, they say...) and that events in the M.E. are the fulfilment of biblical prophecy and that anybody who isn't supporting Israel is instead supporting the anti-Christ...who, by the way can be identified because he is the person who will bring peace to the M.E. and so gain the confidence of the world...no, SERIOUSLY...and this is also being broadcast via radio to the surrounding areas...and I belong to one of the largest religious denominations in America...the Southern Baptists...this is not an isolated nutcase...
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By Kylie
#1080143
I was just watching Anderson Cooper on CNN tonight, and it talked about Christian Zionism. It touched upon the very points made in this post so far. Christians are also encouraged to travel to Isreal so they can see and fully experience the same things and places that Jesus got to experience during his life on Earth. It may be strange, but Christians believe the Jews are the blessed people, and fighting for their sacred holy land is all a part of defending what they claim is rightfully theirs.

As far as my opinion goes, violence breeds violence and extremism only breeds more extremism. This will only lead to a complete polarization, where the middle ground cannot be seen and the real solutions to the problems are no longer even considered.
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By QatzelOk
#1080498
..and I belong to one of the largest religious denominations in America...the Southern Baptists...this is not an isolated nutcase...

Saudi America.
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By Odiseizam
#15199750
Downside wrote:Christian Zionism is a modern theological and political movement that embraces the most extreme ideological positions of Zionism, thereby becoming detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Israel. The Christian Zionist programme provides a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism. In its extreme form, it laces an emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today.

http://www.j-diocese.com/DiocesanNews/view.asp?selected=238#slbl238


from all zionist threads on pofo this is extra interesting topic from many aspects ... just seen from christian perspective any nationalism is wrong, if we know for granted that the concept nation is enlightenment ideal thus freemasonic stew, so seen as ethnophiletism we cant say those christians are prone to Peace even less Christocentrism, the paradox to be more greater to stand for other religious group such christians have problem with their ideals, obviously making just excuses for their choices position and persuasion, in this case particular nationalism, which altho secular defacto is tied to judaism particularly kabbalism which through its sefirot obviously points to judaic archnationalism (see the next docu from 22 min onward [1][1]) and alone this is enough ridiculous for everyone that claim he could be christian'zionist!

one such example is JoeB that has confirmed this in his 2007 statement for schalom tv "I'm a zionist. you don't have to be jew to be zionist" [2][2][2] what is maybe result coz his maritial ties [3] but to be long term public fundraiser for aipac that points to devoted stance not just familiar one! yet JoeB is declarative traditional christian, so maybe its not ideal example for christian zionist, more pure zionist, I mean could abortionist say I am Christian!?
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By Odiseizam
#15199796
if one reads carefully what is chi'zio [1][1] its not hard to grasp that is word for dominionism [2][2][2] hm, I'll ask them isnt hilarious christians to think in terms of spurring determinism i.e. helping the idea for nwo and antichrist throne in jerusalem so they would provoke Our Almighty Lord for Second Coming (Parousia) is this not wrong christians to brake others Free Will to set up own benefit, even more ultimate one, so its word for fake doctrine by all means, which as I am aware is result of the freemasonic infiltration in the charismatic circle from usA in the beginning of the past century! sadly but we can see now there are not just chi'zio's but also converts like JoeB, the question is who are more dangerous for provoking ww3!?
#15201177
This is simply my personal impression , as someone who has been from an evangelical Christian background , here in the U.S.A. , so take it as you will , for what it's worth . I feel that a key reason has to do with white American evangelicals not even recognizing Palestinian Christians , and Middle Eastern Christians more generally as being their brethren in the faith to begin with . I remember this one Christmas season when outside of a Wal-Mart there were these priests from the Antioch Orthodox Church , taking up donations for their shelter for homeless men . My mother and sister wondered what religion they were . I tried to tell them that they were Christians , but they wouldn't believe me , as the priests didn't have the " sanctified appearance " , which they expected Christians to have , but rather looked " foreign " , like this for example . Image I expect that as Ashkenazi Jews in particular look western , they would be more relatable to American Christian right conservatives than bearded robed Christian clerics , whom ironically enough actually resemble in appearance Jesus and the early apostles . Also , I suspect that the emergence of so called Messianic Judaism might play a role . https://religiondispatches.org/conservatives-messianic-jews-and-the-jews/ Lastly , I concur with the points made by Thomas R. Getman , in this lecture . https://www.wrmea.org/018-may/when-and-how-did-evangelicals-become-zionists.html
#15201279
Deutschmania wrote:I feel that a key reason has to do with white American evangelicals not even recognizing Palestinian Christians , and Middle Eastern Christians more generally as being their brethren in the faith to begin with...

I worked one New Years eve, at a party at a Lebanese Maronite party in a church basement.

The priest spoke Arabic, and kept referring to Allah.

For most people, he and the gang of partiers that night would have looked Muslim, because most American Christians are race-stratified more than faith-stratified.

It's the same with Jews in Israel - many feel more comfortable around German and Polish non-Jews than they do around Moroccan or Palestinian Jews.

In the end, it comes down to money. People with it feel more comfortable around others who look like they have the same amount. The "religions" are there mostly to help people coagulate into exclusive pecuniary hunting partiesTM.
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By Odiseizam
#15201382
@Deutschmania interesting articles but there the prime role of christian zionism is offered as british know how, but actually is word for dispensionalism which later evolved in dominionism [1][1] and altho per'se englishmen brought that doctrine in usA defacto the same flourished there instead uK [2][[u]2][2] and more accurately said evolved in usA [3][3] tho who can say for certainty who influenced who [4][4] so later when zionists through rotschield bought Palestine it could be said it was issue resting on usA back [5] in which think also went along freemasons too so they would easily secure their solomon temple through christian'zionists support!

regarding your race point think any acceptance and recognition of Christians in Palestine could not suppress the wide zionist grip on usA system [6] and how the same is pushing the zionist narrative on all levels, simply now the zionist lobby is so huge that even if someone wants to give open support to palestinians he is labeled instantly as evil, in a way selfcensuring is now in place not just in usA but in whole western realm, and only opposition is intestinally pushed in false flags like neonazi and ultranationalist camps thus the public is easily swayed even when some bloody tv coverage has popped up, what is more problematic later the same pattern by the mainstream media was replicated on the meadle east usaf and nato interventions (read occupations) with excuse that the same were from national interests regarding global terorism, even mass death toll of Children as war collateral!

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