Ten Lies that Humanity is addicted to - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15207608
XogGyux wrote:destruction of the library of Alexandria or the countless of events religious fanatics


What destruction of the Alexandrian Library by religious fanatics? I hope you realize that Hollywood movies, science fiction and pulp fiction are not actual history.

Library of Alexandria wrote:
Alexandria came to be regarded as the capital of knowledge and learning, in part because of the Great Library.[11] Many important and influential scholars worked at the Library during the third and second centuries BC, including, among many others: Zenodotus of Ephesus, who worked towards standardizing the texts of the Homeric poems; Callimachus, who wrote the Pinakes, sometimes considered to be the world's first library catalogue; Apollonius of Rhodes, who composed the epic poem the Argonautica; Eratosthenes of Cyrene, who calculated the circumference of the earth within a few hundred kilometers of accuracy; Aristophanes of Byzantium, who invented the system of Greek diacritics and was the first to divide poetic texts into lines; and Aristarchus of Samothrace, who produced the definitive texts of the Homeric poems as well as extensive commentaries on them. During the reign of Ptolemy III Euergetes, a daughter library was established in the Serapeum, a temple to the Greco-Egyptian god Serapis.

Despite the widespread modern belief that the Library of Alexandria was burned once and cataclysmically destroyed, the Library actually declined gradually over the course of several centuries. This decline began with the purging of intellectuals from Alexandria in 145 BC during the reign of Ptolemy VIII Physcon, which resulted in Aristarchus of Samothrace, the head librarian, resigning from his position and exiling himself to Cyprus. Many other scholars, including Dionysius Thrax and Apollodorus of Athens, fled to other cities, where they continued teaching and conducting scholarship. The Library, or part of its collection, was accidentally burned by Julius Caesar during his civil war in 48 BC, but it is unclear how much was actually destroyed and it seems to have either survived or been rebuilt shortly thereafter; the geographer Strabo mentions having visited the Mouseion in around 20 BC and the prodigious scholarly output of Didymus Chalcenterus in Alexandria from this period indicates that he had access to at least some of the Library's resources.

The Library dwindled during the Roman period, from a lack of funding and support. Its membership appears to have ceased by the 260s AD. Between 270 and 275 AD, the city of Alexandria saw a Palmyrene invasion and an imperial counterattack that probably destroyed whatever remained of the Library, if it still existed at that time.

The daughter library of the Serapeum may have survived after the main Library's destruction. The Serapeum was vandalized and demolished in 391 AD under a decree issued by Coptic Christian Pope Theophilus of Alexandria, but it does not seem to have housed books at the time and was mainly used as a gathering place for Neoplatonist philosophers following the teachings of Iamblichus.
#15207609
noemon wrote:What destruction of the Alexandrian Library by religious fanatics? I hope you realize that Hollywood movies, science fiction and pulp fiction are not actual history.

Admin Edit: Rule 2 Violation I said destruction and not burning and you would have realized I said "OR" not "BY". Never said the destruction was done by religious fanatics or any of that sort. When I mentioned religious fanatics I was actually hinting to the crusades, inquisition, etc. There is plenty to choose from when it comes to humans being violent and causing destruction. Which again, is the point.
This is tangential to the greater point and offtopic. Won't discuss it any further as it might risk being considered spamming. I like to follow rules.
#15207613
Industrial societies are not superior to indigenous and sustainable societies,

We (and the OP in particular) romanticize primitive societies. They are rife with murder, war, rape, theft, starvation/famine, malnutrition, disease, abuse, racism, sexism, homophobia, and overall terrible suffering and short life spans.

That doesn't mean the current modern world doesn't have problems, but I don't want to go back to a time of brutality. Without modern technology most of us would be dead, that's a fact. Technology isn't "bad", but it is very powerful and thus needs to be managed properly, which we're not doing a great job at. "With great power comes great responsibility".
#15207616
JohnRawls wrote:You need to understand that Qatz is a primitivist in a sense that he advocates for removal all of technology from society and return to hunter-gatherer way of life which might or might not include crop cultivation because that damages society and climate.

Until just one society, or even a modestly-sized group of people, ignores this and discovers gunpowder and murders Qatz, his family, and much of his society and steals everything they have. Society is a giant arms race. Speak softly and carry a big stick. If the US threw away all of its guns and bombs they'd be invaded in 3 seconds and assimilated by the Chinese or Russians or whomever. The Amish can be Amish because they're protected by US advanced tactical nuclear warheads.

Indigenous people lost everything they had not because they were more "moral" but because they lost the arms race. If Europeans didn't eff them over then Asians or Africans would have eventually. Such is life. Get over it and move on.

Technology is a pandora's box. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and you can't stop human curiosity without destroying human freedom and using violence. So deal with it. Or go through life resentful thinking everything and everyone around you is pure evil and living in fantasy land.

Darwinism is adaptation. We have used technology to adapt to survive, but haven't adapted to much of our technology adequately. Much easier to do that than to put the genie back in the bottle while causing billions of deaths due to disease, famine and whatnot.
#15207618
Unthinking Majority wrote:
Indigenous people lost everything they had not because they were more "moral" but because they lost the arms race. If Europeans didn't eff them over then Asians or Africans would have eventually. Such is life. Get over it and move on.

Agreed. It is not like every single tribe or people that got exterminated was some sort of monk-like spiritual one-with-nature Pocahontas fantasy. Many of these people were violent and merciless of their own right. Now, this is NOT an excuse to annihilate anyone. Just pointing out the disconnect between reality and the imagination of an idealized fantasy world.
Humanity is at the beginning of its road (hopefully) and we have long way to improve ourselves. But we should also realize that we have come long way. Only then, can we collect the strength to continue this path.
#15207619
@QatzelOk The French were great at exploitation and annihilation. Good examples of humanity:

Africa awaits closure of French colonial crimes
29 African nations are still awaiting restitution of the French army’s crimes and return of wealth looted from their lands
posting.php?mode=reply&f=45&t=181487
#15207625
Godstud wrote:@QatzelOk The French were great at exploitation and annihilation. Good examples of humanity:

Africa awaits closure of French colonial crimes
29 African nations are still awaiting restitution of the French army’s crimes and return of wealth looted from their lands
posting.php?mode=reply&f=45&t=181487

They probably shouldn’t hold their breath. We’re still waiting for compensation for the Norman Conquest. 956 years and counting…. >:
#15207633
XogGyux wrote:Agreed. It is not like every single tribe or people that got exterminated was some sort of monk-like spiritual one-with-nature Pocahontas fantasy. Many of these people were violent and merciless of their own right. Now, this is NOT an excuse to annihilate anyone. Just pointing out the disconnect between reality and the imagination of an idealized fantasy world.
Humanity is at the beginning of its road (hopefully) and we have long way to improve ourselves. But we should also realize that we have come long way. Only then, can we collect the strength to continue this path.

I agree. And there were no such thing as international human rights 500 years ago. The world unfortunately was in a state of war against all. If just one European country colonized all of North and South America and the others remained "moral" and stayed out of it, those "moral countries" were risking losing all of those resources/wealth and could have been invaded and annexed by the other powerful country.

That's not to say empires didn't go too far or were never cruel, obviously they were many times, but in general colonization was based on necessity due to the anarchic international system of competing states. Europe was in a constant state of war until 1814 and the "concert of Europe" was implemented...and then 1914 and 1939 happened that it broke down.

Unfortunately the world is still in a system of anarchy (no higher authority to police/punish bad actors), despite the creation of the UN which sought to bring in rules/norms to address this. It's all pretty basic "game theory".
#15207634
Unthinking Majority wrote:Until just one society, or even a modestly-sized group of people, ignores this and discovers gunpowder and murders Qatz, his family, and much of his society and steals everything they have. Society is a giant arms race. Speak softly and carry a big stick. If the US threw away all of its guns and bombs they'd be invaded in 3 seconds and assimilated by the Chinese or Russians or whomever. The Amish can be Amish because they're protected by US advanced tactical nuclear warheads.

Indigenous people lost everything they had not because they were more "moral" but because they lost the arms race. If Europeans didn't eff them over then Asians or Africans would have eventually. Such is life. Get over it and move on.

Technology is a pandora's box. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and you can't stop human curiosity without destroying human freedom and using violence. So deal with it. Or go through life resentful thinking everything and everyone around you is pure evil and living in fantasy land.

Darwinism is adaptation. We have used technology to adapt to survive, but haven't adapted to much of our technology adequately. Much easier to do that than to put the genie back in the bottle while causing billions of deaths due to disease, famine and whatnot.

That was well said, and quite insightful.

I think humans will return to being hunter-gatherers at some point, the few that survive.

It just seems that a catastrophic event is inevitable.

But, I don't necessarily think it is right around the corner, you just never know because shit is so unpredictable.

That's why I am expanding my axe collection ;).
#15207635
wat0n wrote:Also, the idea that indigenous societies were always sustainable is nonsense. The example of the collapse of the Rapa Nui in Easter Island is (or should be) well known, and happened before they had any contact with Europeans.


Indigenous peoples are human just like everyone else, and thus susceptible to greed, jealously, violence and destruction etc like everyone else. They typically didn't destroy their environment because they didn't have the means to do so. Technology is powerful, but again not evil, the evil is what you do with it. It's a case of mismanagement.

In 100-200 years we'll probably have the tech to be able to fix most of the harm we've ever done to the environment.
#15207641
Godstud wrote:@QatzelOk The French were great at exploitation and annihilation. Good examples of humanity:

Africa awaits closure of French colonial crimes
29 African nations are still awaiting restitution of the French army’s crimes and return of wealth looted from their lands
posting.php?mode=reply&f=45&t=181487

Again, this is the same as every society ever since the beginning of time, including Africa.

The difference is we're getting better. Westerners aren't evil, they literally invented human rights and democracy, and civil rights for LGBT/women/racial minorities etc which existed nowhere else. The laws of nature tells us that France doesn't have to give anything back to anyone if it doesn't want to, and nobody does. The times that they do is because they aren't quite the bastards they use to be, which shows progress for humanity. If Africa had invented firearms and large boats first they'd have sailed into Europe and conquered them all. African nations have been at constant war with each other since the dawn of mankind and have enslaved/raped/murdered each other constantly. The US could have used its nukes to annex any country it wanted after 1945, but it didn't. They spearheaded the creation of the UN instead.

Western countries take in loads of impoverished refugees from cultures different from theirs not because it's good for them but because they are trying to be at least someone humane because they care, which again shows some human progress. A country like Saudi Arabia doesn't take in refugees because they are run by a cruel racist sexist homophobic anti-Shia monarchy.

I'm tired of people beating on the West, and tired of all the self-hating Westerners. Fuck these naive fools. The West treats their own people and people in other countries better than any other civilization in the world relatively speaking. The only difference is that the West has all of the power so they do terrible stuff sometimes. They're far from perfect, but they're closer to perfect than any other group of societies since the beginning of time. If China or Syria had the power of the US they'd be savages. If you don't believe me ask any gay couple you might know where they don't feel safe vacationing.
#15207642
Unthinking Majority wrote:Again, this is the same as every society ever since the beginning of time, including Africa.

The difference is we're getting better. Westerners aren't evil, they literally invented human rights and democracy, and civil rights for LGBT/women/racial minorities etc which existed nowhere else. The laws of nature tells us that France doesn't have to give anything back to anyone if it doesn't want to, and nobody does. The times that they do is because they aren't quite the bastards they use to be, which shows progress for humanity. If Africa had invented firearms and large boats first they'd have sailed into Europe and conquered them all. African nations have been at constant war with each other since the dawn of mankind and have enslaved/raped/murdered each other constantly. The US could have used its nukes to annex any country it wanted after 1945, but it didn't. They spearheaded the creation of the UN instead.

Western countries take in loads of impoverished refugees from cultures different from theirs not because it's good for them but because they are trying to be at least someone humane because they care, which again shows some human progress. A country like Saudi Arabia doesn't take in refugees because they are run by a cruel racist sexist homophobic anti-Shia monarchy.

I'm tired of people beating on the West, and tired of all the self-hating Westerners. Fuck these naive fools. The West treats their own people and people in other countries better than any other civilization in the world relatively speaking. The only difference is that the West has all of the power so they do terrible stuff sometimes. They're far from perfect, but they're closer to perfect than any other group of societies since the beginning of time. If China or Syria had the power of the US they'd be savages. If you don't believe me ask any gay couple you might know where they don't feel safe vacationing.

You only lost me right at the end.

There are plenty of gay people in China, and Chinese people don't give a shit.

It might not be really officially sanctioned, in the same sort of way, but Chinese people are pretty down to earth.
#15207643
Unthinking Majority wrote:The West treats their own people and people in other countries better than any other civilization in the world relatively speaking.
This is only because you've never been anywhere where you think they treat people badly, or you'd learn that they do not. This is PERCEPTION. It's similar to when people say crime is high, but in reality it is not.

Everyone who works or lives in China doesn't HATE China like Westerners normally do because they learn it isn't what the propaganda machine says it is.

The lies is that the West is the bastion of human rights and civil rights. Democracy is failing in many Western countries, or is simply Plutocracy in disguise.

Unthinking Majority wrote:If you don't believe me ask any gay couple you might know where they don't feel safe vacationing.
Perception vs Reality.
Is China LGBTQIA+ friendly?
https://www.intrepidtravel.com/en/china ... a-friendly

Unthinking Majority wrote:If China or Syria had the power of the US they'd be savages.
:eh: Nice blatant racism there. The Chinese government isn't hated as much as Western propaganda would indicate, and indeed you'll be hard-pressed to find any country where they like their government.

Syria was doing pretty well before the West-funded terrorism and invasion wrecked their country.

Western colonialism is the epitome of Western savagery, with exploitation, genocide and other things being the norm. Eastern savagery, indeed!
#15207648
Godstud wrote:This is only because you've never been anywhere where you think they treat people badly, or you'd learn that they do not. This is PERCEPTION. It's similar to when people say crime is high, but in reality it is not.

You have no idea where I've traveled LOL.

Everyone who works or lives in China doesn't HATE China like Westerners normally do because they learn it isn't what the propaganda machine says it is.

Tell it to Tank Man and that Chinese tennis girl and the Uyghur. Open your eyes man.

The lies is that the West is the bastion of human rights and civil rights. Democracy is failing in many Western countries, or is simply Plutocracy in disguise.

The West is not a utopia, and it's not perfect, i never said it was. But it's better than a totalitarian dictatorship because that's what ruled western countries before we got rid of the absolute monarchies.

:eh: Nice blatant racism there.

What's racist about what I said? I never mentioned nor inferred race. In fact my argument is that humans are fundamentally all the same, its the cultures that are different.

Syria was doing pretty well before the West-funded terrorism and invasion wrecked their country.

More anti-Western guilt. Yes blame all of Syria's problems on the West lol. No doubt we're to blame for some. But we're not to blame for a savage fundamentalist culture that is horribly misogynist and homophobic, that's 100% on them.

Western colonialism is the epitome of Western savagery, with exploitation, genocide and other things being the norm. Eastern savagery, indeed!

Western colonialism is/was indeed savage. My point is give the same power to most other countries in the non-West and it would be much more savage. Only exceptions might be countries like Japan and South Korea, which have been democratized thanks to the West.
#15207653
Unthinking Majority wrote:THe government isn't.

I guess my retort is that, whilst the Chinese government probably does suck, it probably doesn't suck as bad or in the ways that you think.

Although, it might suck as bad as you think, though probably not in the ways that you think.

All governments seem to suck to me, and that is why I consider myself an anarchist.

The Dutch Government might be pretty good, though.
#15207661
@Unthinking Majority You have never lived in China.

Tank man was never arrested.

Chinese tennis girl? Do you want to discuss claims by a certain woman against Kavanaugh and get back to me?(I know it's a Whataboutism, but it's relevant)

Uygurs:
Fact Check: Lies on Xinjiang-related issues vs. the truth
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-02-06/F ... index.html

Open your eyes. You're gullible and bought the Western propaganda.

Everyone I know who has lived in China(or live there now) has the opposite views as you. Why is that? Is it just that Western propaganda is real, or is it simply people lying about their lives in China... for no reason, whatsoever?
#15207662
Crantag wrote:I guess my retort is that, whilst the Chinese government probably does suck, it probably doesn't suck as bad or in the ways that you think.

Although, it might suck as bad as you think, though probably not in the ways that you think.

My assumption is they are corrupt with no accountability, and when their power is threatened in any way they will do whatever they want to get rid of you as a threat. I don't see how they're different than any other dictatorship ever. Problem with no accountability is abuse of power. So basically George Floyd x 1000.

All governments seem to suck to me, and that is why I consider myself an anarchist.


Problem with anarchy is you're always in fear of people committing violence against you and stealing your stuff etc. So then people form groups to protect themselves from other groups/people. And then they agree on rules for their societies to live by. And now you have a city-state, and eventually a country. And here we are LOL.
#15207663
Godstud wrote:@Unthinking Majority You have never lived in China.
Why on earth would I?


LOL where's he at now? He was never heard from since the protests.


I guess the Uygurs refugee I know is just making shit up and totalitarian governments never abuse their power against minorities.


Ask them why the Dalai Lama, probably the nicest and most peaceful man in the world, has lived in India for the last 60 years and why the CCP says they will be responsible for choosing the next Dalai Lama when he dies instead of Tibetan Buddhists. Ask them why I see Tibetan monk refugees walking down the street downtown in my city.
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