[ckaihatsu]

Memberberries Best Moments! South Park

[Patrickov]

You're blaming the underlings while letting Trump off the hook.

I fail to see why that statement of mine could not be applied against Trump.

[ckaihatsu]

You're blaming the underlings while letting Trump off the hook.

I fail to see why that statement of mine could not be applied against Trump.

Well, then it *is* -- see below. Is attempting to overturn a presidential election to be considered a 'crime', or not -- ?

You've just been *defending* Trump's MAGA ideology, which parallels *fascism*.


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MAGA is not a moronic idea by itself.

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After the 2020 United States presidential election, in which Joe Biden prevailed,[5] then-incumbent Donald Trump,[6] as well as his campaign, his proxies, his political allies, and many of his supporters, pursued an aggressive and unprecedented[7] effort to overturn the election.[8][9][10] These efforts culminated in the 2021 United States Capitol attack, which was widely described as an attempted coup d'état.[11][12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_ ... l_election

[Patrickov]

You've just been *defending* Trump's MAGA ideology, which parallels *fascism*.

You are putting words into my mouth.

Unlike the likes of you, I haven't equated MAGA with Trumpism.
After all, I am not Trump, and neither of us have rights to decide how each other should interpret MAGA.
That's what that latter statement of my post #15205444 meant.

I simply think the United States has to be great, otherwise the likes of you will be living under real fascism enacted by Russia and / or China. It's its responsibility, not rights.

Reason? Other democratic states (yes, I mean Western Europe) are to wishy-washy in dealing with rogue Fascist states like Russia and China (and possibly India if the West grooms it to be the next China), at least partly because of their economic and / or geo-political situations. At least the United States is relatively free from this issue.

Of course I do think it's the best if the United States remains democratic and free so as to set an example, but when the wishy-washiness I said above continues, no one should be surprised when other alternatives arise.

I merely see Trumpism being one of them. I do welcome it when it's on (regardless of his true thoughts on Russia, sanctions against Russia did not actually ease off during his term), but as the likes of you (or late / Rancid, etc.) rejected Trumpism in 2020, fair is fair. "Trumpism has to continue" is obviously nonsense to me.

P. S. noemon had discussed what Fascism is.

[ckaihatsu]

You've just been *defending* Trump's MAGA ideology, which parallels *fascism*.

You are putting words into my mouth.

No, I'm not. I'm *describing* my interpretation of your political sentiments, as objectively as possible.

Unlike the likes of you, I haven't equated MAGA with Trumpism.
After all, I am not Trump, and neither of us have rights to decide how each other should interpret MAGA.
That's what that latter statement of my post #15205444 meant.

It's as I said, and you haven't *refuted* any of the points I've made -- which are sound and grounded. Both fascism and Trump have appealed to a mythical national past of 'greatness'.

I simply think the United States has to be great, otherwise the likes of you will be living under real fascism enacted by Russia and / or China. It's its responsibility, not rights.

Reason? Other democratic states (yes, I mean Western Europe) are to wishy-washy in dealing with rogue Fascist states like Russia and China (and possibly India if the West grooms it to be the next China), at least partly because of their economic and / or geo-political situations. At least the United States is relatively free from this issue.

Of course I do think it's the best if the United States remains democratic and free so as to set an example, but when the wishy-washiness I said above continues, no one should be surprised when other alternatives arise.

I merely see Trumpism being one of them. I do welcome it when it's on (regardless of his true thoughts on Russia, sanctions against Russia did not actually ease off during his term), but as the likes of you (or late / Rancid, etc.) rejected Trumpism in 2020, fair is fair. "Trumpism has to continue" is obviously nonsense to me.

P. S. noemon had discussed what Fascism is.

You're *inverting* the politics as they currently are in the world -- it was the *U.S.* (and Sudan, and Myanmar, Mali, Burkina Faso, Venezuela, Tunisia, and others) who had political *coups* in their countries. There's no controversy concerning these historical *events*, in all of these countries listed.

Just name-calling and using 'fascist' as an insult won't get you very far.

[Wellsy]

Unthinking Majorityism will crush Wellsism with propaganda, bombs, and cyber warfare and paint the world pink.

You will fail because your praxis is an untenable crucible for forging the iron will of the masses against all odds!

[Red_Army]

This dipshit is going to be saying socialism failed while being dragged to death by Immortan Joe.

[Patrickov]

It's as I said, and you haven't *refuted* any of the points I've made -- which are sound and grounded. Both fascism and Trump have appealed to a mythical national past of 'greatness'.

But that doesn't mean their approach in doing so is correct.
In fact, many of which have proven failed and / or only incite sentiment in the other direction.

Also, America being great is not the final goal of mine (both American Fascism and Trumpism do)
Instead, I see it as a necessity to protect other democratic states.

They may serve my ideals but ultimately we are by default different.

You're *inverting* the politics as they currently are in the world -- it was the *U.S.* (and Sudan, and Myanmar, Mali, Burkina Faso, Venezuela, Tunisia, and others) who had political *coups* in their countries. There's no controversy concerning these historical *events*, in all of these countries listed.

At least in Myanmar's case the coup-inducing military have no choice but to appeal to China to hold their asses.

As seen in Vietnam and Libya, any coup people relying on the West bound to fail because their systems are ultimately incompatible with each other.

Lukashenko also presented himself as anti-Russia at first.

Technically countries like Russia and China enable these dictators even if they might be incited by the West, and / or presented themselves as anti-Russia or anti-China at first.


EDIT:
Both noemon and you try to claim that "fascist" should be used as a neutral term. Unfortunately, this is simply not the case when we discuss the effect of this ideology on the humanity now.

[ckaihatsu]

Both fascism and Trump have appealed to a mythical national past of 'greatness'.

But that doesn't mean their approach in doing so is correct.
In fact, many of which have proven failed and / or only incite sentiment in the other direction.

Okay, so you're *critical* of Trumpism / fascism.

Also, America being great is not the final goal of mine (both American Fascism and Trumpism do)
Instead, I see it as a necessity to protect other democratic states.

They may serve my ideals but ultimately we are by default different.

Here you're arguing for a U.S. 'supercop' role in the world, but then, subsequently, you say that any countries, like Vietnam and Libya, are 'bound to fail' if their political systems are reliant on the West:

At least in Myanmar's case the coup-inducing military have no choice but to appeal to China to hold their asses.

As seen in Vietnam and Libya, any coup people relying on the West bound to fail because their systems are ultimately incompatible with each other.

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Lukashenko also presented himself as anti-Russia at first.

Technically countries like Russia and China enable these dictators even if they might be incited by the West, and / or presented themselves as anti-Russia or anti-China at first.

EDIT:
Both noemon and you try to claim that "fascist" should be used as a neutral term. Unfortunately, this is simply not the case when we discuss the effect of this ideology on the humanity now.

I don't argue that 'fascist' is 'a neutral term', whatever the hell *that* means. *Here's* what it means:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[ckaihatsu]

Here you're arguing for a U.S. 'supercop' role in the world,

By 1975, Nixon successfully convinced several OPEC countries to trade oil only in USD, and the US would in return, give them regional military support.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza_Accord#Background

Opinion: Trump is turning U.S. foreign policy into a protection racket

By Max Boot
Columnist
March 11, 2019

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... on-racket/

[Godstud]

Vietnam will fail?

It's a success story, despite not having "American Democracy".

The story of Viet Nam's economic miracle

But then something changed. In 1986, the government introduced “Đổi Mới”, a series of economic and political reforms, and steered the country to becoming a “socialist-oriented market economy”.

Today, Viet Nam is one of the stars of the emerging markets universe. Its economic growth of 6-7% rivals China, and it exports are worth as much as the total value of its GDP. Anything from Nike sportswear to Samsung smartphones are manufactured in this ASEAN nation. Such is the success of the country, Sheng Lu, an assistant professor at the University of Delaware told the Financial Times that there are few spare workers or production facilities left.

So how did this growth miracle happen? According to analysts from the World Bank and the think tank Brookings, Viet Nam’s economic rise can be explained by three main factors: “First, it has embraced trade liberalization with gusto. Second, it has complemented external liberalization with domestic reforms through deregulation and lowering the cost of doing business. Finally, Viet Nam has invested heavily in human and physical capital, predominantly through public investments.”
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/ ... c-miracle/


Failure of Socialism? Only if you are blind to the reality.

China's not failing, either.

[Patrickov]

Okay, so you're *critical* of Trumpism / fascism.

One should be critical of whatever system.

I just happen to be less critical of Democracy, Capitalism and / or British Imperialism.

Here you're arguing for a U.S. 'supercop' role in the world, but then, subsequently, you say that any countries, like Vietnam and Libya, are 'bound to fail' if their political systems are reliant on the West

You mix things up again, this time mixing up "regimes" with "political systems".

States or governments who wish to be reliant on the West should have their political systems genuinely replicating the West, or even surpassing the West in certain aspects. If they employ a structure and mindset opposite to the West (i.e. authoritarianism or even totalitarianism), they either get overthrown (either the West would step in like Libya, or they shame the West so much that they collapse in front of challenges like Afghanistan), or inevitably turn to the anti-West camp (as seen in Myanmar and Belarus)

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I don't argue that 'fascist' is 'a neutral term', whatever the hell *that* means. *Here's* what it means:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Then let's see what you said:

Just name-calling and using 'fascist' as an insult won't get you very far.

You apparently criticized me for using it to describe some nations' negative traits which fit the term's definition, and you intended to have the term used purely for academic discussion purposes.

[Patrickov]

@Godstud

Ironically how successful Vietnam is going to be will depend on how much United States trusts or allows Vietnam as a frontline fighter against Chinese aggression. I suspect that at least one of them is gonna fall.

That said, I don't think Vietnam's specific case can be generalized to the main topic like that.

[Godstud]

That said, I don't think Vietnam's specific case can be generalized to the main topic like that.

If ignorant people want to point at Venezuela, or Cuba as some sort of Socialist failure, then it sure as hell CAN be. It suffered during the American War and still came out OK(Although that war fucked them over for decades). Fuck USA, btw.

No one with a lick of sense can tell me that China isn't a success, either, despite maybe not having the same freedoms that we do. I meet a lot of Chinese people who are critical of their government, but not of their quality of life, or other things that allow them to travel and work abroad.

The definitions of Socialism also apply to Denmark, Norway, and some other countries, to a degree, but that won't make the argument either, will it?

[ckaihatsu]

(What GS said.)


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I think what's refreshing about the Matrix franchise is that at least it deals with *power* relationships, which is what *Marxism* addresses, also -- proletariat versus bourgeoisie.

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The Matrix - Why We Can't Unplug – Wisecrack Edition