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#15209144
The Guardian wrote:Soviets tried to join Nato in 1954

Ian Traynor

Sun 17 Jun 2001 02.27 BST


A year after Stalin died in 1953 and a year before the Warsaw Pact was established in 1955, the Kremlin asked to join Nato, according to a secret file which President Vladimir Putin unveiled last night, writes Ian Traynor.

In a coup de thétre which will have Cold War historians breaking out in a sweat, Putin brandished what he described as a recently declassified 'note' from the Soviet government to western leaders from 1954.

It stated that Moscow was 'holding to its intention of entering negotiations on joining' Nato, formed five years earlier.

Putin used the ploy to answer a question on Russian reaction to possible Nato expansion into parts of the former USSR following George Bush's robust advocacy of potential Nato membership for all countries 'from the Baltic to the Black Sea'.

He then revealed that the 1954 response from the West was that 'the unrealistic nature of the proposal does not warrant discussion'.

A mischievous Putin pointed out that he suggested Russian membership of Nato a year ago but was rebuffed by Madeleine Albright, then the US Secretary of State.

And while it was stressed that Russia and America could be 'allies', Colin Powell, Albright's successor, made clear that that was 'allies with a small "a"'.

Wow. :lol:
#15209146
Beren wrote:Wow.


It's an issue of compatibility. In other words, if Russia's system wasn't as corrupt/backwards as it is, NATO would be more willing to accept. The only way Russia could ever join NATO is basically for Putinism to crumble.

What happened there should not be interpreted as NATO saying "Russia can never join". Which is what you are insinuating. In the world of geopolitics, nothing is absolute, and enemies are not eternal. Maybe you have a hard time understanding things this simple.
Last edited by Rancid on 27 Jan 2022 23:06, edited 1 time in total.
#15209147
Rancid wrote:The only way Russia could ever join NATO is basically for Putinism to crumble.

It seems like Putin suggested Russian NATO membership as soon as he became president.

Rancid wrote:What happened there should not be interpreted as NATO saying "Russia can never join". Which is what you are insinuating.

I'm just shooting torpedoes of truth, my dear. ;)
#15209148
Beren wrote:I'm just shooting torpedoes of truth, my dear. ;)


Throughout the history of humanity, numerous nations/tribes/civilization were once enemies and now strong allies. Shit can always shift and change. You are foolish to believe the world is as static as you are implying.

Perhaps it is you that want a constant state of conflict around the globe.
Last edited by Rancid on 27 Jan 2022 23:10, edited 1 time in total.
#15209158
Rugoz wrote:You're delusional if you take Putin's words at face value, especially something as laughable as joining NATO. He's ex-KGB.

He wanted to be friends with the West and the US anyway, he offered them alliance after 9/11. But you're right, Dubya and Cheney must have been better people than him and must have seen through him (Dubya even saw the man's soul), so they had to refuse him. :lol:
#15209161
Rugoz wrote:You're delusional if you take Putin's words at face value, especially something as laughable as joining NATO. He's ex-KGB.


Well, it's not really that entirely. This guy thinks Putin should be allowed in just because he asked. When you join any group/club whatever, the idea is, you all share common principles (mostly). This is what precludes the current Putinist regime from joining. It's not that NATO has decided to eternally say no to Russia just because. Basically, the condition that would make Russia joining NATO (or at least being friendly with NATO) a possibility is for Putin's shit regime to collapse and be replaced with something that's actually more democratic, or rather, more in principle/value & practice as what you see in the rest of western Europe. The laws of the universe do not state that this is impossible for Russia to do. However, it is impossible so long as you have a Putinist style regime there.

So he can cry "but but but putin asked..." all he wants, but he doesn't understand how this really works. A NATO with a Putinist Russia would basically invalidate the alliance, hence why Putin the fuck face would bother to ask, it's a nice propaganda political tool to get people like Beren.

Again, all this guy does is bad faith.
Last edited by Rancid on 28 Jan 2022 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
#15209162
Beren wrote:He wanted to be friends with the West and the US anyway, he offered them alliance after 9/11. But you're right, Dubya and Cheney must have been better people than him and must have seen through him (Dubya even saw the man's soul), so they had to refuse him. :lol:

Yeah and we moved closer and closer until he went bonkers and wanted to rule forever. That is the hidden part that most Putin lovers and story tellers forget to mention.

It wasn't the US that repulsed Putin but Putin actions that repulsed the West that started to be evident around 2008 when the economy crashed and there was no way to fix it anymore without real reforms. So he went batshit to keep power. There were people like Nemtsov who warned us about this even in like 2002/3 but we were stupid not to listen.

A Marshall plan could have helped in the 90s but it never happened nor was it realistic because of the overwhelming opinion that liberal democracy has won and you don't need to help or fight for it.
#15209167
Rancid wrote:Again, all this guy does is bad faith.

All you do is projecting and talking shit because otherwise you should admit you know nothing and will never know anything because you're totally incapable of understanding the world around you while conforming to authorities.

JohnRawls wrote:Yeah and we moved closer and closer until he went bonkers and wanted to rule forever. That is the hidden part that most Putin lovers and story tellers forget to mention.

Sure, one must be a Putin lover to see if how fucked-up US politics is, because it must be just Putin having gone bonkers. :lol:
#15209169
Beren wrote:All you do is projecting and talking shit because otherwise you should admit you know nothing and will never know anything because you're totally incapable of understanding the world around you while conforming to authorities.


Sure, one must be a Putin lover to see if how fucked-up US politics is, because it must be just Putin having gone bonkers. :lol:

What did the US do to agrevate Putin?
#15209209
JohnRawls wrote:What did the US do to agrevate Putin?

They didn't keep out of what he considers Russia's backyard, although I'm sure it's Russia and Putin rather than US stupidity, arrogance, and shortsightedness that should be blamed for the recent miserable state of the world. :lol:

Even now, however, after they got Trumped and their Capitol got stormed, and when China seems unstoppably rising, they still prefer overstretching and confronting with Putin and pushing him towards China to reconciling with him or even allying with him against their real archenemy. What stupid shit is that? Unite them and lose instead of divide and conquer? :?:
#15209211
Beren wrote:Even now, however, after they got Trumped and their Capitol got stormed, and when China seems unstoppably rising, they still prefer overstretching and confronting with Putin and pushing him towards China to reconciling with him or even allying with him against their real archenemy. What stupid shit is that? Unite them and lose instead of divide and conquer? :?:


Nixon tried it with befriending China to bring down USSR. That didn't go well.
#15209212
Beren wrote:He wanted to be friends with the West and the US anyway, he offered them alliance after 9/11.


I simply don't believe Putin or in fact the Russian military was ready to join NATO with everything that implies.

Here's what Putin actually said:

The Russian president — who in two days attends the G-8 summit in Italy gathering the leaders of the world's top economic nations — said the U.S.-led NATO alliance has outlived its usefulness, having been created during the Cold War to oppose the Soviet bloc.

"There is no more Warsaw Pact, no more Soviet Union, but NATO continues to exist and develop," he said.

"We do not see it as an enemy," he said. "We do not see a tragedy in its existence, but we also see no need for it."

NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe creates "different levels of security on the continent ... which does not correspond to today's realities and is not caused by any political or military necessity."

He called instead for the creation of a "single security and defense space in Europe," which he said could be achieved either by disbanding NATO, or by Russia joining it, or by the creation of a new body in which Russia could become an equal partner.


So the goal was rather to disband NATO and replace it with something where Russia would be an equal.

Beren wrote:They didn't keep out of what he considers Russia's backyard


Eastern European countries aren't "Russia's backyard". There's no reason for the West to buy into that narrative.
#15209214
Rugoz wrote:

Eastern European countries aren't "Russia's backyard". There's no reason for the West to buy into that narrative.




I visited Hungary when the Russian boot was on their neck. The Hungarians I talked to hated it. They also put themselves in some danger just by talking to me.

The idea that people have no rights, no freedoms, no self determination, just because they'd been conquered by Russia in the past; is fu**ing insane.
#15209216
Rancid wrote:Well, it's not really that entirely. This guy thinks Putin should be allowed in just because he asked. When you join any group/club whatever, the idea is, you all share common principles (mostly). This is what precludes the current Putinist regime from joining. It's not that NATO has decided to eternally say no to Russia just because. Basically, the condition that would make Russia joining NATO (or at least being friendly with NATO) a possibility is for Putin's shit regime to collapse and be replaced with something that's actually more democratic, or rather, more in principle/value & practice as what you see in the rest of western Europe. The laws of the universe do not state that this is impossible for Russia to do. However, it is impossible so long as you have a Putinist style regime there.

So he can cry "but but but putin asked..." all he wants, but he doesn't understand how this really works. A NATO with a Putinist Russia would basically invalidate the alliance, hence why Putin the fuck face would bother to ask, it's a nice propaganda political tool to get people like Beren.

Again, all this guy does is bad faith.


Indeed, it is quite cringeworthy.
#15209224
Beren wrote:They didn't keep out of what he considers Russia's backyard, although I'm sure it's Russia and Putin rather than US stupidity, arrogance, and shortsightedness that should be blamed for the recent miserable state of the world. :lol:

Even now, however, after they got Trumped and their Capitol got stormed, and when China seems unstoppably rising, they still prefer overstretching and confronting with Putin and pushing him towards China to reconciling with him or even allying with him against their real archenemy. What stupid shit is that? Unite them and lose instead of divide and conquer? :?:


What are you on about, you are just spouting propaganda.

US and NATO didn't go in to Russias backyard. Nobody forced Poland, Estonia and so on to join NATO this was those countries own free will. Estonia, for example, joined exactly for the reason what is happening now. As our President said even back in 2000s, when the bear gets stronger then he will start attacking his neighbours again because there are 2 neighbours for Russia either its puppets or enemies. With Putin this saying seems to be correct hence the reason for joining NATO. Estonia would be happy if our previous president Ilves was wrong but he wasn't.

So stop with your condescending bullshit and propaganda. Countries are independent actors and have free will to choose where they want to be and what alliances they want to join irrelevant to what Russia thinks. Russia has no right to dictate others what to do and why that is simple as that.

Realpolitik thinking is a fossil of the cold war and is not accepted by Liberal Democratic people and our elite. It is perhaps acceptable under conditions of peer opponents but there is none right now, not even close. Realpolitik in general is alien to liberal democracies.

So when Russian or Chinese propaganda starts spouting realpolitik then only thing that I can say to that is get on with the times fossils. The age of zones of influence, concert of Europe and so on is long over unless you can prove otherwise. In general, this is the beauty of liberal democarcy that we can just sit and wait while the people in those shithole countries eventually understand that we have 4x their standard of living and will do all the work to get rid of their shithole regimes themselves eventually. Yes they can repress them for a long time but they can't repress them forever.
#15209227
@JohnRawls

I agree with you John. Russia wants it's empire back. Once it got stronger after the Soviet collapse, it wanted to reoccupy all it's former Soviet republics. But, some of the former Soviet republics were smart enough to get into NATO before it was too late. And it seems these Soviet republics are doing much better economically. You would think that the Russians would want to build a strong economy like the former Soviet republics. What's with the Russians on this? Aren't they smart enough to want the same thing and build a strong economy? Or they just interested in military conquest even if means having a shitty economy?
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