Rich wrote:Russia paid their money and made their choice or at least their government did on Russian's behalf. Russia could have used its influence to establish an autonomous Russian area of the country containing the whole of the south and the east. Given time they could very possibly have split Ukraine apart and reunited with south eastern part of the country. But oh no that wasn't good enough for Russia they demanded dominance over the whole of Ukraine and Moldova to boot
This is not correct. Russia basically was going in the direction you write. Minsk agreements were allowing some autonomy of these regions (subject to negotiations), but the firm point was Donbass stays in Ukraine.
Referendums by DPR and LPR in 2014 did not have Russia's approval, and they were caused by violence inflicted by Kiev on the citizens in the East.
When you demand everything you can end up with nothing, or at least a very reduced share of the pie. Germany could be much bigger, much greater than it is currently. From 1871 to 1914 they underplayed their hand and then compounded this by massively over playing their hand in World War I and World War II. Serbia made the same mistake of demanding everything than complaining when they ended up the losers. If Serbia had just peacefully allowed the whole of Slovenia and Croatia and Kosovo minus their majority Serb areas to peacefully become independent, they would have been in a strong position to create a a greater Serbia. But no they demanded everything and ended up losers.
This for Serbia is not correct neither. Exactly that was on the table - peaceful dissolution of Yugoslavia with the right of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina to stay in what would be Yugoslavia. Croats and Muslims did not want that, they wanted right to secede for themselves, barring that right to Serbs.
That's exactly why the war broke out in Yugoslavia.
Croats in Croatia did not want to peacefully allow Serbs from Srpska Krajina (which is basically the whole eastern borders (some 15%-20% of population and territory) of today's Croatia stay in Yugoslavia. The same happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Muslims+Croats started killing Serbs because Serbs (and Serb municipalities and population) conducted plebiscite to stay in Yugoslavia.
So, all in all, you are completely wrong and unaware of what happened.
The West has completely hypocritical approach to these various situations.
In Yugoslavia they supported separatists Croats and Muslims, but bombed Serbs who wanted to stay in the integral state. Then they supported integralists in Croatia and BiH and bombed Serbs who wanted to secede from these imposed administrations.
In Kosovo they firstly supported separatist Albanians and they bombed integralists in Belgrade, then they prevented Serb parts of Kosovo to join Serbia, because suddenly the West supports integralists
Unlike in case of Yugoslavia, the West is again against separatists in Donbass and pro-Ukrainian integralists. With the short field trip in supporting Chechen separatists in Russia, against Russian integralists.
So, please, do not go in that field.
Far right parties only got a small percentage in the last elections in Ukraine, but even if they had got a majority so what? As i referenced in anther thread, Jews had to know their place in pre war Nazi Germany. This was not ideal, but it was not exceptional. In the nineteen thirties, the majority of people in the world had to know their place, untouchables in India to just give one example. In the nineteen thirties the majority of the world's population lacked what we now consider basic human rights.
The correct justification for going to war with Nazi Germany was not to stop Hitler ruling Germany or Austria, it was to stop him ruling, Czech, Slovakia, Poland, France, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc. We don't live in an ideal world. We can't go invading and taking over every country to protect minority rights. And we certainly can't allow this as an excuse for imperialist domination. A Nazi style ethnic Ukrainian nationalist government in Kiev, is not something the world should need to make a major concern. The chances of Ukraine going on some major continental conquest like Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France did are zero.
If some people who identify as Russians lose some rights in Ukraine, so what? That doesn't justify Russian imperialistic domination of Ukraine which is what Russia demanded.
I do not agree. Russia did not demand such things. The crucial point is rights of Russians in the east. What was going on in the east was not an isolated event, it was 8 years long harassment, accompanied with Nazi narrative (which is a red flag in front of bull's eyes when it comes to Russia) and flirting with the aggressive NATO pact.
You can not abolish rights of people who identified as Russians in Ukraine. Why would you do that anywhere in the world, no one likes that, no one peacefully agrees to it, especially not Russians in Ukraine. It was so dumb.
BTW, it is completely against basically the founding act of Ukraine when USSR was dissolving. (Belovezh Accords). These republics (Belarus, Ukraine, Russia) obliged themselves to preserve rights of "minorities" that would stay in other Republics, exactly because of the geniuses like the ones in Ukraine that would some day might say:"Ah, phuck those minorities, let's kick their asses a bit...we have NATO on our door...they will help us..."
Consequences of the greed and hegemony are here now.
"The Aggressor is the one who attacks before the USA does", Milos Zeman, the Czech President