How will the US pay back its debt? - Page 10 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15204916
Drlee wrote:I have read it many times. I have an autographed copy. I knew Barry Goldwater from childhood. His was the first campaign on which I volunteered. I have been in his home.

You, on the other hand, would have gotten nothing but scorn from Goldwater. You obviously do not understand his flavor of conservatism. You and your fellow big government Trumpists would have gotten nothing but the boot from him.

Play your game somewhere else. Nobody is buying your bullshit. You are not a conservative. You are not a patriot. You are a fascist.


Meh. You get a 3/10 on making stuff up.

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#15204929
In your dreams.

Come out of the closet Bluto. You will feel so much better when you are able to show your true self. We feel sorry for you all that repressed sexuality.
#15204988
BlutoSays wrote:John Adams called it correctly 230 years ago.

- - - - -

CHAPTER 16 | Document 15

John Adams, Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States
1787

Works 6:8--9

Suppose a nation, rich and poor, high and low, ten millions in number, all assembled together; not more than one or two millions will have lands, houses, or any personal property; if we take into the account the women and children, or even if we leave them out of the question, a great majority of every nation is wholly destitute of property, except a small quantity of clothes, and a few trifles of other movables. Would Mr. Nedham be responsible that, if all were to be decided by a vote of the majority, the eight or nine millions who have no property, would not think of usurping over the rights of the one or two millions who have?

Property is surely a right of mankind as really as liberty. Perhaps, at first, prejudice, habit, shame or fear, principle or religion, would restrain the poor from attacking the rich, and the idle from usurping on the industrious; but the time would not be long before courage and enterprise would come, and pretexts be invented by degrees, to countenance the majority in dividing all the property among them, or at least, in sharing it equally with its present possessors. Debts would be abolished first; taxes laid heavy on the rich, and not at all on the others; and at last a downright equal division of every thing be demanded, and voted.

What would be the consequence of this? The idle, the vicious, the intemperate, would rush into the utmost extravagance of debauchery, sell and spend all their share, and then demand a new division of those who purchased from them. The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

John Adams - Second President of the United States

The Founders' Constitution
Volume 1, Chapter 16, Document 15

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... 16s15.html

The University of Chicago Press

The Works of John Adams. Edited by Charles Francis Adams. 10 vols. Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1850--56.

See also: Butterfield; Cappon; Warren-Adams Letters


@BlutoSays,
What does this post have to do with "how will the US pay-OFF its debt"?

Please try to explain how you think this should be done.

I would love to hear it.
#15205023
Drlee wrote:In your dreams.

Come out of the closet Bluto. You will feel so much better when you are able to show your true self. We feel sorry for you all that repressed sexuality.



LOLOL


Drlee wants to know about my sexuality. Strange. :lol:


I'm hetero, big boi.


For all the tolerance espoused by leftist democrats, it's a surprising debate tactic.


Why the interest, Drlee? Do you like my cock???


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#15205026
Steve_American wrote:@BlutoSays,
What does this post have to do with "how will the US pay-OFF its debt"?

Please try to explain how you think this should be done.

I would love to hear it.



Flatten the tax code and make everyone pay an equal percentage of their income to pay it off or at least start to pay it down. Those who pay nothing and vote for freebies must be made to feel the pain. It's important they do. Once they do, they'll be more careful of what they wish (and vote) for. The big problem is too many people do not have a stake in government spending. They just know they want it, because they don't have to pay any taxes (or in many cases, after tax credits, they get a payout by Uncle Sham and never pay taxes).

The alternative is anyone with brains that is going to be heavily taxed (because so much of the country skates) will simply offshore themselves. Then we begin to look like Venezuela, Greece or Cuba as investors and people around the globe lose faith in our currency. Hint: it's already happening.

In short, unlike what all you idiot leftists (redundant) believe, TANFL.
#15205098
BlutoSays wrote:Flatten the tax code and make everyone pay an equal percentage of their income to pay it off or at least start to pay it down. Those who pay nothing and vote for freebies must be made to feel the pain. It's important they do. Once they do, they'll be more careful of what they wish (and vote) for. The big problem is too many people do not have a stake in government spending. They just know they want it, because they don't have to pay any taxes (or in many cases, after tax credits, they get a payout by Uncle Sham and never pay taxes).

The alternative is anyone with brains that is going to be heavily taxed (because so much of the country skates) will simply offshore themselves. Then we begin to look like Venezuela, Greece or Cuba as investors and people around the globe lose faith in our currency. Hint: it's already happening.

In short, unlike what all you idiot leftists (redundant) believe, TANFL.

With all due respect Sir,
This reply has not one word about the debt.

It [the ideas in your reply] only effects the deficit. It would do this by reducing the "handouts". And, maybe increasing tax revenues.

Obviously, the only 2 reasonable ways to pay-OFF the debt are 1] tax more & spend less to have a surplus. OR 2] create $28T out of thin air to pay off the bonds [I don't think you, Bluto, will like this way of doing it].
MMTer's assertion is that, any surplus for a few years WILL CAUSE a recession. And continuing the surplus WILL CONVERT it into a Depression.

So, to reply to this assertion you must talk about the effect of a surplus.
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#15218217
If you'll notice, Steve_American will say anything and everything to tell us that creating dollars out of thin air does not cause inflation and that printing and borrowing just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. That's because Steve, like so many others, are part of the "Free Shit Army". That is, they WANT more spending for all their hopes, dreams and aspirations and they'll deny gravity exists if they believe it strengthens their argument. Say anything to keep the music going and hand out cash to their voting base.

Far be it from me to try to convince the Steves of the world that the laws of physics, mathematics and economics really do exist.

But remember their arguments as we go further in time:

There is NO inflation -> There's only low inflation -> Inflation is transitory -> Inflation is good!!! -> Spending more on BBB and GND will fix inflation -> Inflation is Trump's fault -> Inflation is Putin's fault -> We feel your pain (vote for us again)!


#15218240
BlutoSays wrote:If you'll notice, Steve_American will say anything and everything to tell us that creating dollars out of thin air does not cause inflation and that printing and borrowing just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. That's because Steve, like so many others, are part of the "Free Shit Army". That is, they WANT more spending for all their hopes, dreams and aspirations and they'll deny gravity exists if they believe it strengthens their argument. Say anything to keep the music going and hand out cash to their voting base.

Far be it from me to try to convince the Steves of the world that the laws of physics, mathematics and economics really do exist.

But remember their arguments as we go further in time:

There is NO inflation -> There's only low inflation -> Inflation is transitory -> Inflation is good!!! -> Spending more on BBB and GND will fix inflation -> Inflation is Trump's fault -> Inflation is Putin's fault -> We feel your pain (vote for us again)!


https://www.you=tube.com/watch?v=-wPO1xVAO_Y


Lurkers, again not one word about how the US national debt can ever be paid-off with tax dollars and a surplus. If I'm right, and it can never be so paid-off, then the economists who demand that it will be paid-off are liars. [BTW, Bluto is not an economist, so he is meerly wrong and not a liar.]

MMT agrees that inflation can be a problem. However, the current price increases are being caused mostly by shortages and supply shocks. Also, the Fed, of San Francisco calculated that just 0.3% of the current price increases were caused by the covid spending to support the economy. This is much less than 1%. [In a desire to be truthful I'm not sure if the sources are being sloppy (as is now common) and saying 0.3% when they mean 0.3 percentage points of the over 7% price increases is so caused.]

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#15228116
Which means they will try to suck it out of Latin American markets and African markets. It will cause mass revolutions if they try that. People are sick and tired of getting paid shit salaries here and paying off banks with high interest debts. It is criminal at this point! So it looks like the USA is in financial trouble in the foreseeable future.
#15228118
I already gave all of you the solution.

You don't need to pay off the debt, all you have to do is balance your budget. Inflation + modest economic growth will take care of the debt. The trick is to basically not increase the principle on the debt. That's it...
#15228127
Tainari88 wrote:Which means they will try to suck it out of Latin American markets and African markets. It will cause mass revolutions if they try that. People are sick and tired of getting paid shit salaries here and paying off banks with high interest debts. It is criminal at this point! So it looks like the USA is in financial trouble in the foreseeable future.


China has a firm hold on Africa.

The only thing Latin America is sending us is droves of poor with nothing to their name.

Financially, we're about 18 months away from shitting the bed.
#15228237
Rancid wrote:I already gave all of you the solution.

You don't need to pay off the debt, all you have to do is balance your budget. Inflation + modest economic growth will take care of the debt. The trick is to basically not increase the principle on the debt. That's it...

Also, @wat0n

If the US will never need to raise taxes to pay down its debt, then what is the problem with increasing it?

MMT has shown that =>
1] Banks don't loan savings, they create the deposits that they will need 1 week later to "match" their total loans, by making the loans. The loans increase the total on deposit in all banks less a small amount that is moved overseas and a much smaller amount that stays as cash.
. . . So, savings just sit there in banks and so are not adding to GDP in any way. The more anyone saves the more the GDP is reduced. MMT asserts that the Gov. needs to replace this with deficit spending.
. . . MMTers seem to assume that everyone will understand that all dollars used to buy stuff being imported will be saved outside the US. I think they need to be clear about this. And add the trade deficit or current account balance to the savings (getting the +/- sign right).
2] So, savings temporarily destroy money just like tax payments do. Some savings is used to invest by buying real estate or stocks. Then we have to look the see what the seller has done with the dollars. If she spends it, it returns to the economy. If she saves it it is just saved in a bank, sitting there, just in a different bank.
3] MMTers assert that therefore, the fiscal balance should be used to "balance" the economy, their wording. This means that when the Gov. & economic experts want to grow the GDP (GDP being equal to the total income of all players in the US economy), it is better to have the Gov. deficit spend than relying on the banks to make loans to increase the incomes (bank loans are always soon spent by someone, although those used to buy a home are more like invested, but still count toward to GDP as someone's income). Bank loans must be repaid (unlike deficit spending that is paid free and clear to someone); this means that they will be a drag on the economy in the next downturn, because loan repayments also destroy dollars, as they reduce the principal of the loan, AFAIK). This sucking of dollars as soon as a recession starts (when loans stop being made, but repayments continue) is a main driver for the downward spiral that makes the recession worse. So, letting the people have their incomes grow without the drag of repayments is better for the economy.
. . . Obviously, bankers, bankesters, and economic experts who are paid by them will tell you that the Gov. needs to balance its books, because then the people will need to borrow more to keep their incomes growing in the boom times, thus increasing the bank's profits. Why should you believe them when we have seen how Trump and the Repuds have shown us how easy it is to lie and have no shame about it?

MMT asserts that all loans have 2 POV. From the POV of the borrower they are a liability that must be repaid. However, from the POV of the lender they are an asset, a sort of saving or investment.
. . . In the case of loans to the Gov. made by buying a Gov. bond, the Gov will never repay the principal. It will keep rolling over that bond and the interest forever. The bond holder always gets her money back so she doesn't care. The new bond holder doesn't care because he will always get his money back, too. Etc.
. . . They will always get paid because the US Gov. & the Fed (which is part of the Gov. with a little more independence) issue the currency, the dollars, so it can always make all its required payments by selling bonds to the Fed in a crazy emergency. It is impossible for bond vigilantes to punish the Gov. because the Gov/Fed issues the dollar. The Gov. can always avoid high interest rates on its bonds by selling to the Fed., if it changes the law which it can (just like the debt ceiling was raised a couple of years ago, because the rich were bluffing, so their lackeys in Congress were also bluffing).

Despite what you keep hearing from many economic experts who say the current inflation is being caused by a growth in the money supply; the current inflation has been blamed by the San Francisco Fed on shortages (caused by covid, covid lockdowns, and the war in Ukraine) and by nations and corps using their monopoly pricing power (OPEC, Exxon, Amazon, etc.) to increase their profits, because they can.
. . . If you believe the SF Fed then, all the massive deficit spending that started in 1981 under Pres. Reagan and has continued under every president since (except Clinton) has not yet caused inflation over 2%, yet. So, if 40 years and over $30 trillion of deficit spending has not yet caused inflation, then why think that it will someday? How long must we continue the real world experiment before you are willing to grok that Mainstream Economic Theory and all its experts are part of a scam to make the rich richer and the mass of Americans poorer (this includes all but the upper Middle class; all other Middle class and Lower class people have been squeezed for 40 years as real wages have been flat and all proceeds from productivity increases have gone to the top of the income spectrum.
. . . A few months ago I read about China around 1000AD started issuing paper money and deficit spending secure in the understanding I have provided above. Things went fine for hundreds of years. The Genghis Khan conquered northern China. He didn't understand all the above and over spent. The result was hyper inflation.** The bankesters' experts want you to learn from this history the lesson that sooner or later there will be high inflation. I lesson I learned from this is "Don't let barbarians or others who don't understand the above info get control of your Gov." But, the barbarian part is so obvious it doesn't need saying. For example, I point out the Islamic "Persian" Empire of about 1200AD, which was invaded by the same Mongols. Its ruler had pissed off Genghis Khan so he had his armies take every city and kill every man, woman, child, cat and dog in the city, as well as most in the villages. The lesson is don't let the barbarians conquer your nation, period.

In summary, I ask again, why is it a bad thing for the Gov. to keep providing assets free and clear to the people at a measured rate that doesn't cause inflation over 2%?
. . . This doesn't change the fact that the bond from the POV of the buyer/holder is an asset.
. . . So, why is it bad for the Gov. to keep increasing the net assets of the people at a measured rate that doesn't cause inflation over 2%?


. ** . I keep pointing you to the Cato Institute (a thinktank of the Koch brothers) report about all hyperinflations in history. Strangely, this example is not included in it. It says all 57 (IIRC) happened after 1900. The report found that all 57 were caused by shortages, and not by money printing. This included the Weimar Republic inflation of 1922-23.

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#15228280
Rancid wrote:I already gave all of you the solution.

You don't need to pay off the debt, all you have to do is balance your budget. Inflation + modest economic growth will take care of the debt. The trick is to basically not increase the principle on the debt. That's it...


Do you think they are not going to increase the principal on the debt? All they do is keep borrowing more money Rancid. Addicted to being in debt the US government is getting crazy.
#15228281
BlutoSays wrote:The only thing Latin America is sending us is droves of poor with nothing to their name.


This show how effective elitist propaganda is in the US. That is to say, the wealthy elites and politicians in America have convinced us that we should look down on poor working class people. This effectively means we are giving out power to the elites.

BlutoSays wrote:Financially, we're about 18 months away from shitting the bed.


I remember people saying this in 2008, yet... here we are.

Tainari88 wrote:Do you think they are not going to increase the principal on the debt? All they do is keep borrowing more money Rancid. Addicted to being in debt the US government is getting crazy.


They probably will, but the US has had a balanced budget in the past. It can be done, but the political climate will prevent that of course.
#15228283
BlutoSays wrote:China has a firm hold on Africa.

The only thing Latin America is sending us is droves of poor with nothing to their name.

Financially, we're about 18 months away from shitting the bed.


You created the poor who are going there seeking asylum. You sent that ASSHOLE Keith with United Fruit into Honduras, and the rest of the nations like Guatemala, Nicaragua and others with enormous violence and arms and torture squads against Indian communities who wanted living wages. Study the reason the people in those caravans are almost all from Central America. Mexican immigration is almost zero now. Most of Mexico is sufficiently healthy economically to avoid going to the USA. The reason why many undocumented workers aren't picking the fruits and veggies off the fields and the drug addicts and the prison labor in Alabama ain't doing the job.

You scared off the hotel maids, (shortage of hotel employees now with dirty towels the norm in many chain hotels like Hilton and so on), you scared off most of the landscaping people, and you scared off restaurant workers, now you got NOTHING. Shortages and shit. Because the American legit citizens don't like those bad jobs with zero benefits. So go and find prison labor. See if the ex-drug addicts with a hatred of being exploited do those jobs with dedication? They won't.

The entire immigration system in the USA is based on greedy capitalists used to exploiting Latin American cheap labor for decades and centuries at this point. It is going to be drying up if those nations actually do something to better their economic outlook. Once that happens? Good luck to the American consumer looking for cheap tomatoes and watermelons, and $69.99 a night hotel rooms.

You need to replace them all with robots. But so far a lot of those crops are robot resistant. Lol. Artificial Intelligence might work in fast food. Lol. But all they can get them to do consistently now is flip a burger with one arm. Lol.

The USA needs to rethink its entire economy. And getting capitalist greedy people who refuse to pay Mexicans and Central American labor above $1.00 an hour is the problem. How do get those people to pay a living wage in the nations of Central America and Mexico? They all decide to bribe corrupt Right-Wing asshole drug dealers like the one they backed in Honduras that is now being tried in the USA....the man they BACKED. Now they got to get him out of there because he is a puppet who doesn't care about his people in Tegucigalpa. Do you care about Latin America Bluto or do you just write crap opinions without knowing what you are saying about other nations' problems?

I run across those Hondurans in the Mexican immigration office. They got a special program for them called refugee status. The Mexican government has to cope with it. Which they are doing. But what is the USA going to do about not being responsible for causing civil wars in Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador, and Nicaragua? Because they have caused civil wars in those nations and killed thousands of people over BANANA production. Do you know that BLUTO?





But the USA billed itself as a new society. Just. Equal. Accepting of the Indians, the Blacks and the Latin Americans of mixed race heritage? A great LIBERAL multicultural melting pot. Where your kids go to free public schools, you get work that pays a living wage. You rent a real house with a real toilet. You learn English and you are respected. The Great New Capitalist Liberal Democracy. But? Then the Racist Republicans took over....they don't want the poor huddled masses from Latin America! They want lily white European lower class people from the poverty stricken nations of Ireland, Germany, England and Sweden, like in the past.....but why aren't they coming over on airplanes from those white nations of Europe anymore? Could it be because they got living wages and welfare and shocker? SOCIALISTIC programs that WORK in that society? And the teeming European underclass is staying PUT?

Horror. Progress in Europe! Now? The new ones are from China, India, Cuba, Mexico, Central America, Africa....dark people with poverty. HORROR! We don't want them to stay say the Republicans.....why not? They are the only ones interested in working here for peanut wages. because the white underclass say no to the private health insurance and the high rents and the debt for college degrees. And the drug addict whites and blacks and others don't want to work for prison wages hard in the hot sun knowing they won't be compensated justly. So who you gonna call?

What are you going to do in America (USA)? How are you gonna deal with the dark floods? Are you going to go full-scale SS Gestapo Nazi and throw them in camps and kill off their kids? And them? Or are you gonna open the door and let them in? Who knows? But the old gray-haired white people keep saying "Replacement Theory" and they are brainwashing 18-year-old dumb-ass kids with racist crock theories....do you like that Fox News crock theories Bluto?
#15228298
Rancid wrote:This show how effective elitist propaganda is in the US. That is to say, the wealthy elites and politicians in America have convinced us that we should look down on poor working class people. This effectively means we are giving out power to the elites.



I remember people saying this in 2008, yet... here we are.


You are completely unreasonable by throwing the borders wide open and draining the social safety net in every state to the point where the country is hemorrhaging. Any time you are challenged on the subject, you return to calling people racists, bigots, and "looking down on the working class". You whine about giving everyone a living wage, which is not supported by all products and services offered. You then proceed to import a second class of people who don't play by rules to challenge those who would work for that artificially derived "living wage" on a different landscape. That second class works to undercut above board businesses through an underground black market economy and cash transactions. They work for an even lower wage on a cash basis and use public services and benefits without paying for them. That demographic is not taxable and does not abide by the same rules and fair play as legitimate citizens and businesses (all while you whine about the unfairness of purchasing cheap products from China).

You are setting up two classes that will war with each other. See Bosnia and Herzegovina 1992 forward.

Stop blaming wealthy elites for your flawed views.
Last edited by BlutoSays on 19 May 2022 16:37, edited 1 time in total.
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