I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 60 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15224808
Potemkin wrote:“Conscience is a Jewish invention.” - A. Hitler


@Potemkin :

I am reminded of how Himmler used to carry a copy of the Bhagavad Gita around, and quote to his SS officers from the dialogue between Arjuna and Krishna about the morality of violence and the role a member of the warrior caste had to play, duty greater than any idea of morality they had inherited from the Christian period of Germany's history.

" Savitri Devi" of course sensed the linkages in her Pagan mind and ran with it, her and a number of WW2 era Indian intellectuals believing that Hitler was an Avatar of Vishnu and forerunner of the avatar Kalki...

Hence my interest in the religious aspects of Fascism and esoteric Hitlerism. What we saw in Europe and the white Western world in general was a turning away from the Judeo Christian heritage because it no longer suited the alleged needs of Faustian civilization.

Genocide begins with such things, with facile dehumanization.
#15225056
@Potemkin , @Verv , and @Political Interest :

Today is St. Thomas Sunday, when the Apostle had to see the Risen Christ to believe that the Miracle had indeed happened, and Christ said that those who could not see but who believed were greater still.

Today in the secular calendar it is May 1st of course, celebrating the workers around the world. Most people work necessarily, or have, or will when trained for it.

There is no overt exoteric connection between the two, except that the powers that be are pretty fed up with Christianity and with uppity working people alike. Our Lord is a Worker, from eternity, and doesn't have much use for the idle Rich, and they know it.

I also know, as the Pagans taught, that leisure is the very basis for civilization, to think "refined" and "elevated" thoughts, even if only a few at the very top can ever fully indulge in such leisure it is touted as aspirational for all, really to relax and to be entertained and to consume. Such is the ideological thinking anyway.

The Risen Christ thinks and teaches otherwise.

I'm reminded also from the tale of Aesop's about the Grasshopper and the Ants, and that Christ only quotes from him among the Hellenes. The Grasshopper exists on both ends of the socio economic spectrum, depending on the Ants for everything. Solomon said that we should consider the Ants ways and be wise.
#15225444
What do modern conservatives conserve when they run ideas and beliefs through the machinery of voting and judgements and political cause and effect familiar to fans and foes of republics?

If beliefs and ideals aren't subject to change, they shouldn't be up for a vote either, else they aren't held very deeply.

But people prefer peace and safety even more than truth and goodness, and so evil slowly wins over time if it happens to have more power. In reality to acquiesce in evil, is as one has done the evil themselves, and that shatters the pretensions of all hearts.
#15225663
@Potemkin , @Verv ,and @Political Interest :

I was reading from the Book of Tobit in Scripture, and I was reminded again of how weak and lowly material things are used by God to confound the Evil.

Asmodeus is a devil, a devil who had oppressed Sarah and killed every bridegroom who ever attempted to marry her. Tobias son of Tobit uses the heart and liver of the fish he caught and placed it on the fire in the wedding chamber (as per the Archangel Raphael's instructions) which smell drove Asmodeus to flee to Upper Egypt where St. Raphael bound him.

Now, among other things I find it interesting that not only does Asmodeus sound like a murderous obsessed stalker of Sarah's, but that a smell from a fish drove him away, that his senses were real and that it offended him enough that he fled from what is now Iran to Egypt to get away.

The physicality of the story interests me greatly. These are not the Angels of later Scholastic theology which nobody could believe in, without occupying space but somehow being with wills and intellects, who the Scholastic thinkers taught only appeared to have bodies, eat, smell, and so forth.

What offends them about matter? Are these thinkers almost Gnostics, Manichaean? Matter isn't sinful, some people are.
#15225860
annatar1914 wrote:@Potemkin , @Verv ,and @Political Interest :

I was reading from the Book of Tobit in Scripture, and I was reminded again of how weak and lowly material things are used by God to confound the Evil.

Asmodeus is a devil, a devil who had oppressed Sarah and killed every bridegroom who ever attempted to marry her. Tobias son of Tobit uses the heart and liver of the fish he caught and placed it on the fire in the wedding chamber (as per the Archangel Raphael's instructions) which smell drove Asmodeus to flee to Upper Egypt where St. Raphael bound him.

Now, among other things I find it interesting that not only does Asmodeus sound like a murderous obsessed stalker of Sarah's, but that a smell from a fish drove him away, that his senses were real and that it offended him enough that he fled from what is now Iran to Egypt to get away.

The physicality of the story interests me greatly. These are not the Angels of later Scholastic theology which nobody could believe in, without occupying space but somehow being with wills and intellects, who the Scholastic thinkers taught only appeared to have bodies, eat, smell, and so forth.

What offends them about matter? Are these thinkers almost Gnostics, Manichaean? Matter isn't sinful, some people are.


Now, some might say that St Raphael the Archangel said in Tobit that:

" all these days I appeared to you I did not eat or drink: but you were seeing a vision..."

May well just mean that he concealed what sort of being he was, by seeming to need food and drink like a regular human being, not that he isn't a being that has some kind of desire if not need for sustenance.

For in Psalm 78 verses 24 and 25 the Holy Spirit says:

"And He rained Manna for them to eat and gave them the bread of Heaven: Man ate the bread of Angels; He sent them food in abundance. "

That is of course no reason to give a grossly fleshy interpretation of any of this, on the other hand.
#15226267
Feast of the Myrrh bearing women.

" Mother's Day " kind of obscures, among other things, the feast day of the women Satan particularly hates: those women more faithful than the Apostles, who became Apostles to the Apostles, preaching that Christ had Risen from the dead.

Worthy of honor, and worthy of emulation.
#15226673
@Potemkin , @Verv , and @Political Interest :

Contra Harry Frankfort and his delightful book of Philosophy: " On Bullshit ", civilization is not built on the truth, whether from liars or honest people, but on Bullshit, the thought of persons who have no concern for the very idea of truth at all but who merely wish to persuade others.

Myths build the City, build the State.

But what modern myths sustain today's City, today's State? No mere myth, but the concept of modern Money, of finance capital. And so, is it a lie, invented by those who know the truth but deny it? Or does this myth rest upon Modernity post truth politics?
#15226674
annatar1914 wrote:@Potemkin , @Verv , and @Political Interest :

Contra Harry Frankfort and his delightful book of Philosophy: " On Bullshit ", civilization is not built on the truth, whether from liars or honest people, but on Bullshit, the thought of persons who have no concern for the very idea of truth at all but who merely wish to persuade others.

Myths build the City, build the State.

But what modern myths sustain today's City, today's State? No mere myth, but the concept of modern Money, of finance capital. And so, is it a lie, invented by those who know the truth but deny it? Or does this myth rest upon Modernity post truth politics?

Money is itself a myth, a “phantasm,” as Marx called it. In fact, he regarded it as a hallmark of capitalist society that it turns real things (and real people) into phantasms, and phantasms into real things. After all, money, which is an abstract concept with no concrete reality, becomes the most important thing in modern society, and countless people are willing to kill other people or destroy their own physical environment in order to obtain more of it. They destroy what is real in pursuit of what is unreal. This is the “founding Myth” of the modern world.
#15227101
Potemkin wrote:Money is itself a myth, a “phantasm,” as Marx called it. In fact, he regarded it as a hallmark of capitalist society that it turns real things (and real people) into phantasms, and phantasms into real things. After all, money, which is an abstract concept with no concrete reality, becomes the most important thing in modern society, and countless people are willing to kill other people or destroy their own physical environment in order to obtain more of it. They destroy what is real in pursuit of what is unreal. This is the “founding Myth” of the modern world.


@Potemkin , but also @Verv , and @Political Interest , and others:

I have commented before my agreement with you on this, that also Money is the reified Blood and Body of the Poor Man, Christ Himself through His brethren.

But, I think Money, or the " Mammon of Unrighteousness " that Our Lord wants us to pay particular attention to, has another aspect which has gone unnoticed perhaps by myself. I have to look at the most famous holder of Money in the New Testament, the Rich Man in Christ's parable of Lazerus, for an answer somewhat.

Read the Parable. Everyone gets a measure of joy and heavenly bliss, either now in finite time and space or forever in eternity, at a higher level. Use it up selfishly and there's not much later. Money is the token of and for present happiness, undeferred gratification.

Look at the other famous holder of money in the New Testament, Judas Iscariot. Scripture says he was a devil, the son of perdition who stole from the common purse he held for Christ and His other disciples, and who betrayed Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

Judas saw everything Christ did and heard everything He said, and rejected Him for money and its transitory good and more permanent evils.

So this could in these two perspectives on money's " avatars " represent what before, was just " in potentia" before the Incarnation: the rejection of God by man, collectively speaking. The sacrament of despiritualization. The Mark of the Beast, the number corresponding to the 666 talents of Gold King Solomon possessed, the greatest monarch of all time.

While being Nothing (for Christ created a sum of money inside a fish for st Peter to catch, the Temple Tax He willed them to pay), Money stands for something. I suspect it was the Pagans " Ring of Gyges" which conferred invisibility and thus, impunity, for that is also what Money can do for its bearers. The Ring of Power, the cursed gold of the Niebelungs.

But what happened to Money, shortly after the Incarnation and in response to it? It began to lose even the illusion of being a real metallic object and became paper or a notation in records. All the same in the Modern Age Money entered into its fullest and most ethereal development, it's near complete control over the mind of men. We can no more imagine our world without Money than a world without a State. And as we know, the two are intimately connected...

The Barbarian and the Saints know that neither exists.
#15227118
annatar1914 wrote:@Potemkin , but also @Verv , and @Political Interest , and others:

I have commented before my agreement with you on this, that also Money is the reified Blood and Body of the Poor Man, Christ Himself through His brethren.

But, I think Money, or the " Mammon of Unrighteousness " that Our Lord wants us to pay particular attention to, has another aspect which has gone unnoticed perhaps by myself. I have to look at the most famous holder of Money in the New Testament, the Rich Man in Christ's parable of Lazerus, for an answer somewhat.

Read the Parable. Everyone gets a measure of joy and heavenly bliss, either now in finite time and space or forever in eternity, at a higher level. Use it up selfishly and there's not much later. Money is the token of and for present happiness, undeferred gratification.

Ironically, under capitalism, the accumulation of capital itself requires deferred gratification, the rejection of immediate consumption in favour of long-term investment. And I believe Christ used this as a metaphor for the spiritual life in one of his parables (the bad servant who buried his master’s gold vs the good servant who invested it wisely). Yet it also involves rejecting the greatest deferred gratification of all, in favour of living the “good life” in this world - the “good life” being understood in the modern world to be a life given over to conspicuous consumption and hedonistic pleasure. As Christ put it, “They already have their reward.”

Look at the other famous holder of money in the New Testament, Judas Iscariot. Scripture says he was a devil, the son of perdition who stole from the common purse he held for Christ and His other disciples, and who betrayed Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

Judas saw everything Christ did and heard everything He said, and rejected Him for money and its transitory good and more permanent evils.

So this could in these two perspectives on money's " avatars " represent what before, was just " in potentia" before the Incarnation: the rejection of God by man, collectively speaking. The sacrament of despiritualization. The Mark of the Beast, the number corresponding to the 666 talents of Gold King Solomon possessed, the greatest monarch of all time.

While being Nothing (for Christ created a sum of money inside a fish for st Peter to catch, the Temple Tax He willed them to pay), Money stands for something. I suspect it was the Pagans " Ring of Gyges" which conferred invisibility and thus, impunity, for that is also what Money can do for its bearers. The Ring of Power, the cursed gold of the Niebelungs.

But what happened to Money, shortly after the Incarnation and in response to it? It began to lose even the illusion of being a real metallic object and became paper or a notation in records. All the same in the Modern Age Money entered into its fullest and most ethereal development, it's near complete control over the mind of men. We can no more imagine our world without Money than a world without a State. And as we know, the two are intimately connected...

The Barbarian and the Saints know that neither exists.

Money, in this sense, symbolises the rejection of transcendence, the rejection of the next world or the judgement of God as a phantasm, as unreal, and the embrace of this world as the only reality; the rejection of human love and fellow-feeling as unreal and valueless, and the embrace of our personal appetites and desires as the only things worthy of being valued. Yet it is this world, this present moment which eludes our grasp and passes away, which is ultimately unreal, and our passing whims and appetites which are unworthy and valueless. We reject what is real and valuable and try to grasp worthless phantoms and shadows….
#15227631
Potemkin wrote:Ironically, under capitalism, the accumulation of capital itself requires deferred gratification, the rejection of immediate consumption in favour of long-term investment. And I believe Christ used this as a metaphor for the spiritual life in one of his parables (the bad servant who buried his master’s gold vs the good servant who invested it wisely). Yet it also involves rejecting the greatest deferred gratification of all, in favour of living the “good life” in this world - the “good life” being understood in the modern world to be a life given over to conspicuous consumption and hedonistic pleasure. As Christ put it, “They already have their reward.”


Money, in this sense, symbolises the rejection of transcendence, the rejection of the next world or the judgement of God as a phantasm, as unreal, and the embrace of this world as the only reality; the rejection of human love and fellow-feeling as unreal and valueless, and the embrace of our personal appetites and desires as the only things worthy of being valued. Yet it is this world, this present moment which eludes our grasp and passes away, which is ultimately unreal, and our passing whims and appetites which are unworthy and valueless. We reject what is real and valuable and try to grasp worthless phantoms and shadows….


@Potemkin , well said my friend!

I delayed my response to this post, because I had recently read something by way of a counter point: not about money, but one bemoaning the loss of the sense of the Sacred as understood by the civilized Pagans in the world....

Well, how does this relate to your post?

" phantoms and shadows "

Having earlier covering those themes of the Sacred and Sacred Spaces in relation to Civilization, I won't retread that ground. But my understanding is that things are only Sacred in the context of their relationship with the Creator of them all. Money is just a remnant of a numinous fetishism that survived the Christian era, because of its condemnation (in certain aspects) in that Christian era.

Does this in some way contradict my previous thinking on being fully informed personally by a pre modern sensibility and numinous nature of reality, that everything is alive and as such is a reflection of the energies of God, His work in Creation? Far from it. Concepts can unfortunately come just out of the human mind and have no participation in real world. Money is one such concept. The State is another. And so too is Private Property. What really exists are persons, having personal interactions and reactions.

The world really is a magical and mysterious place, and part of its mystery and magick are the obvious tell tale signs of illusions and spells, cast by magicians. Take Law for example. A Barbarian like me with one foot in Fairie to begin with had a hard time understanding Law until I realized that it is all a kind of civilized sorcery that employs a semantic magick, with power shaped by words and even down to the placement of commas and the like (no, im not a Sovereign Citizen type, that's another discussion) having a result in civilized reality. It is much the same with economics, real estate, and financial systems. Even military philosophy of war does not escape this worldview. The West thinks it shapes reality by merely speaking it into existence, and for much of the modern age it pretty much could as long as the military and political philosophies could back it up.

But reality cannot be denied indefinitely.
#15228379
@Potemkin , @Verv , and @Political Interest :

I had intended to balance out my critique and examination of the Western and Faustian civilization with the Magian and Monotheistic one, and so it seems appropriate on the feast day of St Job the long suffering (who lived in Uz in the land of Arabia) to do exactly that in the next post or so, contrasting Babylon with the Wilderness.

And Job is a good place as any to start, because his friends who subject him and God to a human standard of ethics and reason and who are in the end confounded.

And yet, carry even that Truth too far to the exclusion of other parts of the Truth, and that becomes the source of other delusions and errors.

So... One cannot ignore Islam concerning Magian cultural beliefs for the same reason that I suggested " Mormonism " as the future religion of the West: without a spiritual foundation, all one has are these systems of formal religion which however manage to " explain " reality in a deceptively simple and logically airtight manner, within the context of the civilization.
#15228677
annatar1914 wrote:@Potemkin , @Verv , and @Political Interest :

I had intended to balance out my critique and examination of the Western and Faustian civilization with the Magian and Monotheistic one, and so it seems appropriate on the feast day of St Job the long suffering (who lived in Uz in the land of Arabia) to do exactly that in the next post or so, contrasting Babylon with the Wilderness.

And Job is a good place as any to start, because his friends who subject him and God to a human standard of ethics and reason and who are in the end confounded.

And yet, carry even that Truth too far to the exclusion of other parts of the Truth, and that becomes the source of other delusions and errors.

So... One cannot ignore Islam concerning Magian cultural beliefs for the same reason that I suggested " Mormonism " as the future religion of the West: without a spiritual foundation, all one has are these systems of formal religion which however manage to " explain " reality in a deceptively simple and logically airtight manner, within the context of the civilization.


@Potemkin , @Verv , and @Political Interest :

Islam is the dialectic counter pole to Faustian civilization, the Other which helps the Western elites make the decisions that they do in conscious or unconscious reaction to the movement or lack of movement within the Islamic segment of Magian cultural cluster.

More specifically in modern present era, the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 seemed to push the West even further into Secularism and Anti Christian movements while forming alliances in containment of that Islamic Revolution.

Christianity in the West is not feared in the West because Christianity strictly speaking does not exist in the West, independent and as a model for an entire way of life. If Christianity revived in the West, its opponents would still use Islam as the rhetorical narrative frame into which any such revival would be placed. Islam is seen only as a stand in for the Monotheism to be opposed, attacked, and undermined, openly such discussions are made. Bear in mind that to such Moderns, there is little to any understanding of the numerous theological differences between Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Likewise, Muslims on their part are at a loss to understand the deep Anti Christian roots of Western thinking which effect them so profoundly.

As an aside If this seems like a complete dismissal of all Western sects and their influence in the world, it is. The story of the West is truly defined around two clusters of events: the Crusades and the " Renaissance ", that is the wars against the Other and the war within to restore Paganism and eliminate Christianity. Thus, modern movements like the Azov in the Ukraine: anti Islamic, anti semitic, anti Orthodox Christian, Pagan and explicitly white supremacist, are at the material tip of the spear of the Western trend. This trend will shortly be universal in the West, open and only weakly opposed. Movements like Azov are the future of the West, just starting, not ending.

Islam then is the caricature, the strawman, the parody of Magian culture which Faustian civilization moves against when it further divests itself of any Monotheistic heritage. That's all it is regardless of actual content or natural living reality to its adherents.
#15228680
late wrote:60 pages of holy crap?


You almost prove my point just by yourself. In any case, you are once again violating the whole reason for this sub forum, the " Spirituality " section.
#15228683
annatar1914 wrote:
You almost prove my point just by yourself. In any case, you are once again violating the whole reason for this sub forum, the " Spirituality " section.



"Thus, modern movements like the Azov in the Ukraine: anti Islamic, anti semitic, anti Orthodox Christian, Pagan and explicitly white supremacist, are at the material tip of the spear of the Western trend. This trend will shortly be universal in the West, open and only weakly opposed. Movements like Azov are the future of the West, just starting, not ending. "

Politics in robes, and still crap.

The West is secular, and for good reasons. While movements arise, they don't last.
#15228686
late wrote:"Thus, modern movements like the Azov in the Ukraine: anti Islamic, anti semitic, anti Orthodox Christian, Pagan and explicitly white supremacist, are at the material tip of the spear of the Western trend. This trend will shortly be universal in the West, open and only weakly opposed. Movements like Azov are the future of the West, just starting, not ending. "

Politics in robes, and still crap.

The West is secular, and for good reasons. While movements arise, they don't last.


Again, you rather make my point about the West. That what I speak of exists and is no phantom. You may be disgusted with the results at times and most emphatically deny paternity, but there it is.
#15228688
annatar1914 wrote:
Again, you rather make my point about the West. That what I speak of exists and is no phantom. You may be disgusted with the results at times and most emphatically deny paternity, but there it is.



"This trend will shortly be universal in the West"

First, Genghis Khan wasn't big on ideology, he was into power.

Second, movements come and go.

Third the West is secular, and it's bone deep. We just fought off a big wave of that sort of nonsense. And we're helping Ukraine fight off that sort of nonsense.

Fourth, that sort of ideology is propaganda, an excuse to seize power. Some may believe, but it is what it is.
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