If Germany won’t stop buying Russian gas, it should face sanctions too - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15224832
Rancid wrote:
Agree 100%. That said, the sanctions are actually have some effect. The bigger issue for Russia, is the blocking of parts/tech for them. However, this is really a long term problem, and probably doesn't affect the battlefield much.

We should be at war with Russia. No question.



NATO should be 'at war' with Russia while also being Russia's *best customer* -- ? -- !


Europe has bought $46 billion worth of Russian energy since the Ukraine war began

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/28/business ... index.html


Despite Sanctions, Russia Has Sold Over $66B in Fossil Fuels Since Invasion

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-sold-ov ... ns-1701888
#15224837
ckaihatsu wrote:

NATO should be 'at war' with Russia while also being Russia's *best customer* -- ? -- !


Europe has bought $46 billion worth of Russian energy since the Ukraine war began

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/28/business ... index.html


Despite Sanctions, Russia Has Sold Over $66B in Fossil Fuels Since Invasion

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-sold-ov ... ns-1701888


It's time to stop being a customer of Russia. Same with China.
#15224842
Rancid wrote:It's time to stop being a customer of Russia. Same with China.

Someone once said that if goods don't cross borders, then soldiers will. This may be the first occasion in human history when both will happen simultaneously. :lol:
Last edited by Potemkin on 30 Apr 2022 16:45, edited 1 time in total.
#15224845

Why is the war in 1984 never ending?

In 1984, the endless war enables the ruling class to remain in power while the lower classes remain powerless. In Goldstein’s manifesto, he observes that a country that is productive will eventually become prosperous, unless something is done to destroy the fruits of that productivity. War is the ultimate solution to this problem. War forces the population to be more and more productive, but all those products are destroyed by the war, so the people never benefit from their work. The ruling class gains power while the lower classes never benefit from their labor and can be branded as unpatriotic if they try to resist exploitation. Further, a state of constant war keeps the population fearful and eager to give up their freedoms for security. Meaningless victories can be claimed by the Party from time to time in order to stir up patriotism and encourage citizens that their hard lives are having a positive effect on the war effort.



https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/1984/key ... d-answers/
#15224927
a text ckaihatsu cited wrote:War forces the population to be more and more productive, but all those products are destroyed by the war, so the people never benefit from their work. The ruling class gains power while the lower classes never benefit from their labor and can be branded as unpatriotic if they try to resist exploitation.

Likewise, Germany has been forced to be "extremely productive" by a giant colonial power a few times in its modern history.

After WW1, it was France and the UK that forced Germans to work for free.

And now, it's the USA that wants Germans to watch the Euro become devalued, and then buy expensive (often stolen) gasoline from the USA.

As Germans, they must work hard and buy over-priced crap from their masters. How long will Europe remain in NATO and under the rusted-embrace of Team America?
#15224934
ckaihatsu wrote:In using the first-person plural to describe both the United States and Ukraine as engaged in a “fight” against Russia, Austin effectively admitted—for the first time by a US official—that the United States is a combatant in the war.

This statement is especially striking given the declaration by Biden in March that “Direct confrontation between NATO and Russia is World War III, something we must strive to prevent.”



Lavrov concluded, “NATO, in essence, is engaged in a war with Russia through a proxy and is arming that proxy. War means war.”



On Sunday, Blinken and Austin announced over $322 million in new weapons financing for Ukraine, bringing the total US weapons shipments to $3.7 billion since the start of the war, Reuters reported. US weapons deliveries include Javelin missiles, artillery, ammunition and drones.



Today, the US will host a meeting of dozens of countries centering on arming Ukraine.

Now, two months since the outbreak of the war, US officials are stating publicly what they previously admitted only in secret: The United States is the driving force in a war aimed at crippling and subjugating Russia and overthrowing its government.

Austin’s de facto admission that the two countries with the world’s largest nuclear arsenals are both parties to the military conflict in Ukraine must be treated as a stark warning by workers all over the world. The present crisis poses immense dangers and raises the urgent need to mobilize the international working class in opposition to war.

The article you posted here reminds me of a song, called "99 Luftballons" , coincidentally the song is German. By the way, from what I have heard, and read, I am of the opinion that sanctions itself should be considered to be a war crime. But what exactly constitutes a violation of international law seems now of days to be subjective to whatever the G 7 say it is. https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/01/22/its-time-to-call-economic-sanctions-what-they-are-war-crimes/ , https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/06/27/sanctions-are-crimes-not-law-enforcement/
#15224945
Deutschmania wrote:
The article you posted here reminds me of a song, called "99 Luftballons" , coincidentally the song is German. By the way, from what I have heard, and read, I am of the opinion that sanctions itself should be considered to be a war crime. But what exactly constitutes a violation of international law seems now of days to be subjective to whatever the G 7 say it is. https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/01/22/its-time-to-call-economic-sanctions-what-they-are-war-crimes/ , https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/06/27/sanctions-are-crimes-not-law-enforcement/



Yeah, I'm Gen-X, so I *lived* with 99 Red Balloons while I was growing up. Unsettling and amazing, simultaneously, and that goes for *all* of the '80s.

100% on the content.
#15225009
Drlee wrote:The idea that we are sanctioning Russia in some of the most severe sanctions in history and propping up their economy at the same time is utterly absurd. It is, however, consistent with the decadent ideas we in the west have about doing what is right. We are all for doing what is right and riding heroically to the rescue of Ukraine as long as the price of Bratwurst does not go up.

We should be blockading Russia entirely, if not defeating them on the battlefield.

When did this decadence set in? Remember the United States didn't go to war against either Nazi Germany or Imperial japan. They waited to be attacked. The US essentially did nothing to stop the survival of an independent Poland and Czechoslovakia. Why did the US do nothing? We've seen nothing comparable from Putin's Russia to Kristallnacht. Why did the US essentially do nothing in response to the blatant racism of Kristallnacht.

Perhaps it had something to with the fact that in 1930s America this was still going on.

#15225012
The thing about civilisation is that it is always decadent and always barbaric, at the same time. These are not different stages of the ‘progress’ of civilisation, they are different aspects of civilisation, and are always present.
#15225019
@Drlee

Why should Germany face sanctions for buying Russian gas?

Russian gas is not sanctioned. And if you say it's because Germany is breaking the financial rules - After all, the gas is being paid for with roubles - that doesn't work because, technically, it isn't.

The gas is paid for in dollars, and it is dollars that are deposited into a Russian bank account in Switzerland.

It is the Swiss bank, at Russia's request, that changes them to roubles.


:)
#15225394
ckaihatsu wrote:Iceland, because of its geothermal.

Yup, energy solutions *exist*, but it's not about that -- it's about class hegemony.

It's also about selling cars.

The USA, Germany, Canada, France, and many other countries... have governments that promote automobiles and other products. This has lead to these same countries being addicted to car-oriented resources like oil.

The people of these countries have different cultures and values, but CAR SALES always create an entrepreneur subset, and this entrepreneur subset has ruined our uniqueness and national sovereignty in many ways.
#15228263
Negotiator wrote:Sure, lets start the nuclear world war. And here I thought the starter posting of this thread was already beyond retarded.

So Einstein ist proven right again, there is no limit to stupidity.

So I proposed moving troops into Ukraine when I was concerned, going on western defence experts predictions that Ukraine's defence might collapse. The disadvantage of occupying parts of Ukraine would be that attacks could not be launched from those areas. I wasn't suggesting that we should seek engagement with Russian forces, just put an absolute limit on their advances.

As things currently stand I don't think we should overtly move forces into Ukraine. However if Moldova renounced its claim to Transnistra, it would be good if Romania annexed Moldova and NATO forces were moved in.
#15228288
Rich wrote:
So I proposed moving troops into Ukraine when I was concerned, going on western defence experts predictions that Ukraine's defence might collapse. The disadvantage of occupying parts of Ukraine would be that attacks could not be launched from those areas. I wasn't suggesting that we should seek engagement with Russian forces, just put an absolute limit on their advances.

As things currently stand I don't think we should overtly move forces into Ukraine. However if Moldova renounced its claim to Transnistra, it would be good if Romania annexed Moldova and NATO forces were moved in.



This isn't some retro-WWII battlefield dynamic, Rich -- it's international imperialist financial *predation*, just as before, with *other* countries before Ukraine:



According to World Bank data, the country owes external lenders $129 billion in prewar debt, the equivalent of 78.8 percent of its GDP. Kiev expects to repay $16 billion this year. In addition to outstanding loans and accumulated interest, Ukraine is also coping with various penalties and fees for failing to meet criteria set by international lenders. In 2022, Ukraine is supposed to fork over $178 million in loan surcharges to the IMF.

In an April 20 article in Deutsche Welle, Ukrainian economist Oleksandr Kravchuk objected to the fact that the “sums [from international lenders] are clearly not enough for financial stability,” noting that “the country's debt dependence and debt burden will only grow,” even if interest rates are low. He called for, as have some other political figures and commentators in the West, the cancellation of Ukraine’s debts. No such measure has been forthcoming.



The International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and other major lenders all see the war as a means to dramatically extend their control over the resources of Ukraine and force the country to further cut social spending and open up its economy to outside investors. Ukraine is, for instance, home to one-third of the world’s “black earth” soil, among the most fertile land to be found.

Writing in the Atlantic on April 11, David Frum, a well-known political commentator and former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, insisted that the measures taken by the West to help Ukraine “prove not a burdensome gift to charity but a mutually beneficial investment.” He insisted that the country would have to address “internal corruption” and “predation” and endorsed the suggestion of the leading economist Anders Aslund that Ukraine “overcome the deficiencies of its judicial system by opening new trade courts, staffed by foreign judges who earn international salaries but apply Ukrainian law.”



https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/0 ... n-m10.html
#15228422
AFAIK wrote:I think we should invade France because it didn't invade Iraq. As Bush II succinctly stated, "you're either with us or against us."

Well I guess they would argue that Jacques Chirac was like Melkor the adversary, the greatest source of evil in the world at the time and that Putin his protege was like Sauron, eclipsing his former master.

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