California makes it a crime to remove a condom without woman's explicit consent - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Traditional 'common sense' values and duty to the state.
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#15194216
Fasces wrote:@Puffer Fish: if you're concerned about big bad women using this to frame you for rape, have you considered not engaging in risky premarital sex with random women you don't trust?

We could turn that around and ask the reverse.
If women are so concerned about a man potentially doing this to them, have they considered not engaging in risky premarital sex with random men they don't trust?
#15194218
Saeko wrote:It's almost impossible for a condom to come off inadvertently.

t. Have had sex.

Julian Assange claimed he peeled the condom off after it tore.

Swedish investigators even performed a forensic analysis of the condom in question, and claim the examination was consistent with the condom accidentally tearing from a manufacturing defect.

Of course that was not enough to save him from a world of trouble.
#15194264
Puffer Fish wrote:Julian Assange claimed he peeled the condom off after it tore.

Swedish investigators even performed a forensic analysis of the condom in question, and claim the examination was consistent with the condom accidentally tearing from a manufacturing defect.

Of course that was not enough to save him from a world of trouble.


Tearing is not slipping off.
#15194386
Saeko wrote:It's almost impossible for a condom to come off inadvertently.

t. Have had sex.



They can fail and 2% is fucking high...


Overall, the World Health Organization says condoms have a 2% failure rate when used perfectly and consistently. But the typical failure rate is much higher, at 15%, with the typical use of condoms.24.02.2012

https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control ... %20condoms.
#15196771
XogGyux wrote:This is ridiculous. So you think if you are in the bed with a woman, since you are both naked she is then free to insert her fingers in your a hole, put a strap on and ride you?

She can try and initiate it, but she should have to stop if the man says "No".

If the woman does something really fast and harsh before the man has a chance to communicate "No", then that could get into a grey zone. But I think we are getting into a different discussion here since that is the type of thing the man will know is happening immediately during or before the fact, whereas "stealthing" is something the woman may not realize is happening while it is happening.

Rugoz wrote:The only potential problem here is enforceability.

The issue here is that the woman's testimony is almost always going to be automatically believed. The law is going to give the green light for that to happen, because how else could this law realistically ever get enforced?

The problem with these sort of laws is that men will go to prison for "regret sex". Where women regret that they had sex after the fact, and then decide the man should be blamed and held responsible for it.

It's unrealistic for a man to always ask a woman if she verbally consents to every specific sex act while he is having sex with her.

Sometimes it is clear that the woman DOES know, but she can just claim she didn't, or wasn't sure.

In the Julian Assange case, one of the women actually told the police she realized he wasn't wearing a condom a few seconds after he went into her, but she still allowed the intercourse to continue. It didn't matter, under the wording of the law, the man was still guilty, and they could use that as a basis to get him extradited from another country.
That wasn't the real reason the woman had complained to police - she was actually angry about the man carrying on a relationship with another woman at the same time - but that was used as a pretext to go after him.

Some women have claimed rape since a man didn't call them back after a casual one-time encounter. So you can just imagine how open to abuse this law would be.
#15196772
Now I have to bring this up: Some of you will say that many women are automatically believed when it comes to rape allegations. Yes that's horrible but that's just the reality that already exists. So how is this any different?

At least if they are rape accusations, there is possible obvious evidence that could exonerate the victim (mobile phone records, security video camera footage showing the woman was trying to sleep with the man or take him home late at night).
With these "stealthing" condom crimes, there is almost no evidence that exists that could exonerate the man (short of the whole sex act being video recorded, which is unlikely, and would probably be illegal for the man to do to the woman without her consent anyway, and the judge probably would not allow it to be submitted as evidence even if it showed the woman was lying, ironically).
#15196801
Puffer Fish wrote:Now I have to bring this up: Some of you will say that many women are automatically believed when it comes to rape allegations. Yes that's horrible but that's just the reality that already exists.


No, it is not.

Out of a thousand rape cases, only 28 (this is less than 3%) will be convicted.

Most cases are bot even reported to police because the women know they will not be believed.
#15196804
@Fasces

Fasces wrote:@Puffer Fish: if you're concerned about big bad women using this to frame you for rape, have you considered not engaging in risky premarital sex with random women you don't trust?


That's a good point. However, life is not black and white and attraction is not so simple and people do get attracted to each other instantly and sometimes have one-night stands or sex after only a few dates. But, it's probably a good idea to keep your urges in check and really get to know a woman and trust her before having sex with her. It is an undeniable fact which I can prove that women have made false accusations in the past and some of them were successfully sued over them by people they accused (and some of the accused were probably convicted and sent to prison even though they shouldn't have given they were likely falsely accused).

I can also think of another case where the police were about to lock a guy up for rape because he was falsely accused of rape and the only thing that saved him was that he secretly recorded the woman giving her consent to sex with a hidden recorder which he was able to present to police just as they were about to arrest him. If he didn't make that secret recording of her giving consent to sex, he would be been branded a rapist the rest of his life and would have a criminal record that he didn't deserve.

The police didn't believe him too when he told him he was innocent of rape until he produced the secret recording and was able to prove his innocence. If he didn't make a secret recording, he would have been doomed. But it seems ridiculous that one would have to go to the extreme of taking a secret recording to prove their innocence from a false allegation of rape that he would have otherwise been convicted of under the law of that particular state.

Should guys start protecting themselves from false accusations of rape by taking secret recordings of a woman giving explicit consent to have sex in one-party states that allow secret recordings without the consent of the other person who is in the conversation with you (insofar as not having the consent of the conversation to being secretly recorded unknown to one of the parties who are taking part in the conversation)? How would women feel about some men resorting to such a practice to protect themselves from false allegations of rape? Do you know what I am saying? Seems really crazy and awkward all the way around and very unnatural. You would think the laws could be written better to also ensure that men are also not falsely accused of rape without having to go to the extremes of taking secret recordings of women giving their consent to them for sex.
#15197099
tomskunk wrote:Should guys start protecting themselves from false accusations of rape by taking secret recordings of a woman giving explicit consent to have sex in one-party states that allow secret recordings without the consent of the other person who is in the conversation with you (insofar as not having the consent of the conversation to being secretly recorded unknown to one of the parties who are taking part in the conversation)? How would women feel about some men resorting to such a practice to protect themselves from false allegations of rape? Do you know what I am saying? Seems really crazy and awkward all the way around and very unnatural.

That was my point. A man could do that in the case of rape accusations. It would be awkward and unnatural, but it would not be impossible.

But compare that to allegations about removing a condom without the woman's consent. How could the man possibly prove that? Unless there was a secret video tape going of the whole sex act.

And even then I very much doubt the judge would allow that evidence to be admitted to court. Even though it proves the man is innocent, judges typically do not allow recordings to be admitted into evidence in court if they were obtained through illegal means, a recording without the woman's consent. (And let's be real, almost no woman is going to openly consent to letting her sexual encounter be recorded on video, especially a one night stand)
#15197101
Saeko wrote:It's almost impossible for a condom to come off inadvertently.

t. Have had sex.

That's actually not true, happened to me once, the condom was too small.

I had magnums in my wallet but the girl didn't trust wallet condoms, and had me wear a standard one, and it slipped off, and I guess I was too drunk to notice, I've also had a condom break to similar effect, in younger daze.

Ended up with morning after pill situations.

They can slip off if they are too small.
Last edited by Crantag on 06 Nov 2021 03:09, edited 1 time in total.
#15197103
Fasces wrote:Why didn't he stop the sexy sex and put on a new condom? Or inform and ask the woman if it was OK to continue without a condom?

Heat of the moment? Maybe he only had one. Also the feeling is different, though in the woman will feel the difference in a lot of cases, but not necessarily, especially in the heat of the moment.

I can see a problem if a guy rips off a condom and then insists on going on, particularly, obviously, if any force is involved.

Maybe keep the government out of the bedroom.
#15197106
Crantag wrote:That's actually not true, happened to me once, the condom was too small.

I had magnums in my wallet but the girl didn't trust wallet condoms, and had me wear a standard one, and it slipped off, and I guess I was too drunk to notice, I've also had a condom break to similar effect, in younger daze.

Ended up with morning after pill situations.

They can slip off if they are too small.


Not too subtle way to say you have a bigger than average dick :lol:

But honestly, those cases should be rare. I don't think stealthing is a behavior that should be tolerated. In your case, if you told her about your "problem" you did not stealth her at all.
#15197108
wat0n wrote:Not too subtle way to say you have a bigger than average dick :lol:

But honestly, those cases should be rare. I don't think stealthing is a behavior that should be tolerated. In your case, if you told her about your "problem" you did not stealth her at all.

It was, at least on topic for the thread :p

I've experienced breakage and slippage from wearing undersized condoms.

A rare opportunity to be not too subtle in how you say though, lol.
Last edited by Crantag on 06 Nov 2021 08:15, edited 2 times in total.
#15197111
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, it is not.

Out of a thousand rape cases, only 28 (this is less than 3%) will be convicted.

Most cases are bot even reported to police because the women know they will not be believed.


Rape cases are usually he-said she-said situations. Given presumption of innocence of defendant they're hard to convict by nature. Of course many times cops don't take them seriously, but once it goes to court it's still hard to convict. That's sad, not sure how you change that.
#15197127
Yes and it also strikes me that there's a tendency to catch the least guilty. Men who systematically and deliberately set out to override women's sexual boundaries will not admit to anything incriminating, at least if they've got half a brain. Where as men who don't set out with malice afore thought to rape or override a women' boundaries are far more likely to admit to something that can be used against them.
#15228443
Unthinking Majority wrote:Rape cases are usually he-said she-said situations. Given presumption of innocence of defendant they're hard to convict by nature. Of course many times cops don't take them seriously, but once it goes to court it's still hard to convict. That's sad, not sure how you change that.

How are you going to convict any man of this unless the woman's claim is believed?

I'm afraid this new law is going to give the green light for men to be convicted based only on the accusation of the woman. Because there's just no other realistic way for men to be convicted under this new law.

At least with real rape allegations there is sometimes additional evidence that can corroborate the woman's accusations, and/or the small possibility of evidence that can exonerate the man and sometimes prove the woman was a liar.
#15228481
Puffer Fish wrote:How are you going to convict any man of this unless the woman's claim is believed?

I'm afraid this new law is going to give the green light for men to be convicted based only on the accusation of the woman. Because there's just no other realistic way for men to be convicted under this new law.

At least with real rape allegations there is sometimes additional evidence that can corroborate the woman's accusations, and/or the small possibility of evidence that can exonerate the man and sometimes prove the woman was a liar.


This seems like unsupported speculation and not a real argument.
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