[Rich]

This is what I mean by the pathetic discourse we have in the West. The title of this video.

What about NATO is so great now? Putin attacks our friend Ukraine and we respond with don't you dare attack Poland. And when exactly was NATO so great in the past. NATO beat or helped to beat Serbia and Gaddafi. NATO helped the fight against the Taliban which we lost. Yes NATO was a good thing during the cold war, but I'd hardly describe it as a great military. It never actually fought during the cold War and expected to lose a conventional war against the Soviets and have to resort to nuclear weapons.

[Igor Antunov]

Putin knows that the US will continue to self-sabotage in protest as long as Russia remains in Ukraine, so he will stay in Ukraine on principle as long as possible. Gas per gallon will get up to $15 or whatever breaks peoples ability to commute to work and then the economic consequences will stack and gas will be just one little piece of the apocalyptic puzzle. All of it on purpose, by design. They're trying to ruin millions of young Americans lives to prove a political point and I don't think they understand the fire they are playing with here when everything crumbles. The kitchen is already on fire and Biden is in the living room striking matches near the curtains.





1,908 Azovites have been captured in Mariupol from industrial underground as of today, with more leaving. Damn no wonder they ran out of food so fast. On top of the 1,340 marines in the city earlier.

Western heroes in Mariupol:

Really tickles the almonds...


Also, the pocket closes.

The battles for Severodonetsk have begun. The propagandists of the Kyiv regime call the defense of the city the decisive battle for the Donbass. And there is some truth in this. Although, of course, there will be a whole series of such battles.

The city is now blocked from three sides (north, east, south) and assault groups are already on the outskirts. Artillery continues to dismantle the fortifications of the enemy.

The devastation of grad can only be seen at night, shrapnel is what kills and maims, so when you think it's missing its not missing. It's shredding and tearing flesh off the bone. I had a barrage land near me when I was a foolish child and it's a miracle I didn't get shredded. My little friend standing next to me had his legs torn apart.

Incendiary warheads for make benefit crispy bacon.

[MadMonk]

Kremlin propaganda is directly responsible for Russia's genocide in Ukraine, war-crime investigators say

In an April 4 op-ed published by Russia's state-run RIA Novosti news agency, the pro-Kremlin journalist Timofey Sergeyetsev called for the destruction of Ukraine's national identity and a campaign of brutal punishment of its people.

He wrote that Ukraine must be "denazified" and its people made to "assimilate" the experience of the war "as a historical lesson and atonement for [their] guilt."

He called for imprisonment, forced labor, and death for Ukrainians who refused to comply with the Kremlin's mission to assimilate the country into Russia.

That same day, evidence began to emerge of a brutal campaign of torture and executions by Russian forces on Ukrainian civilians in Bucha, a town near the capital Kyiv.

For Wayne Jordash, a barrister advising Ukrainian officials investigating possible Russian war crimes, the Bucha atrocities were the culmination of escalating attacks on Ukrainian civilians that can be directly linked to Russian state media.

"I don't think I've seen a clearer call to attack civilians or a clearer call to genocide in any modern-day conflict," said Jordash, who has advised governments, including Libya's and Vietnam's, on human rights.

The United Nations defines genocide as acts "committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group." The International Criminal Court, which prosecutes war crimes and other breaches of international law, is already investigating atrocities committed by Russian forces in Ukraine.

One problem facing war-crimes investigations is that they often struggle to link wrongdoing on the ground with politicians and senior commanders, Jordash said.

Those leaders often argue that the atrocities were nothing to do with them, blaming their subordinates instead.

But the pervasiveness of anti-Ukrainian propaganda in Russian state media outlets, and the close control the Kremlin exerts over them, gives investigators an opening, he said.

"I think it make it much easier to connect Putin and the immediate national-security team and some of the propagandists" to atrocities committed by Russian troops, he said.

Early on in the invasion, it had focused on portraying the Ukrainian government as hijacked by "Nazis," but it soon moved its focus to portraying the entire civilian population as somehow deserving of punishment, said Jordash.

"What you saw was an increased focus on the Ukrainian people having to atone for the Nazism or somehow the original sin of being the Ukrainian, which to me is consistent with an idea of a theory that Ukrainians or at least part of them should be destroyed, simply for being Ukrainian," said Jordash.

Since then, Russian state propagandists and Kremlin officials have kept up a steady drumbeat of propaganda against the Ukrainian people, disparaging the notion of Ukrainian national identity and suggesting Ukrainians were somehow guilty of crimes which Russia had to punish them for.

In an April 15 appearance on Kremlin propagandist Vladimir Solovyov's show on Russia's Channel 1, a commentator railed against notions of Ukrainian national identity, and said Russia would be "eradicating it out of them," according to a translation of the remarks by Julia Davis, who monitors Russian media for The Daily Beast.

There is concrete evidence that anti-Ukrainian propaganda in state media influenced Russian troops on the ground, said Eugene Finkel, a political scientist at Johns Hopkins University who analyzes genocide and political violence.

"We know of explicit targeting of people associated with the Ukrainian national identity, such as local leaders and state officials, teachers, veterans," he told Insider.

"We also have evidence that, in some instances, Russian soldiers explicitly justified their violence against civilians by referring to articles they read in the Russian media."

"For now we are just scratching the surface and still don't know to which extent this propaganda drove the violence, but we already do know that it did play at least some role," he said.

[Independent_Srpska]

This is what I mean by the pathetic discourse we have in the West. The title of this video.

What about NATO is so great now? Putin attacks our friend Ukraine and we respond with don't you dare attack Poland. And when exactly was NATO so great in the past. NATO beat or helped to beat Serbia and Gaddafi. NATO helped the fight against the Taliban which we lost. Yes NATO was a good thing during the cold war, but I'd hardly describe it as a great military. It never actually fought during the cold War and expected to lose a conventional war against the Soviets and have to resort to nuclear weapons.

Well, the NATO is basically like a pack of hyeanas.

It performes well around small, weak and surrounded herbivores.

But, when it faces good old king of the jungle the pack of hyeanas just squeeks and runs away so fast that their asses must miss their feet while crapping out of fear.

[Rugoz]

What about NATO is so great now? Putin attacks our friend Ukraine and we respond with don't you dare attack Poland.

You people just can't decide between "NATO is causing WW3!" and "NATO is chicken shit!", can you?

Yes NATO was a good thing during the cold war, but I'd hardly describe it as a great military. It never actually fought during the cold War and expected to lose a conventional war against the Soviets and have to resort to nuclear weapons.

AFAIK that was only true for a certain period after WW2. Needless to say nowadays it's the opposite.

[Independent_Srpska]

NATO is probably the only defensive pact in history that has never had any defensive activity , and yet it murdered millions of people.

Though German army in WW2 was also called the Defence force (Wehrmacht).
So, it’s again matter of understanding basic concepts and definitions.

[Rich]

You people just can't decide between "NATO is causing WW3!" and "NATO is chicken shit!", can you?

You used to be one of the most intelligent and well reasoned posters on PoFo. Your politics were never the same as mine, but I always valued your perspective, But recently you seem to have become like just another bad tempered old man a lot of the time, thinking that "fuck off" is a reasoned argument. Like a lot of people you seem to have lost their social skills during Covid / lockdown.

When you say "You people", I presume you are referring to the Russain / Putin fanbois. It should be obvious that I'm not one of them. As I've said Putin completely blew it in 2014. Russia is an unattractive economic failure relying on primary resource production to hide its productive poverty.

As to 2022 the operations against Kiev were conducted in an appalling manner just from a military stand point let alone an ethical one. Making some gambles on the first day of the war was correct, but the continued airborne assaults of paras and special forces was demented. That paras, paradoxically, are best used as ground troops most of the time is basic military knowledge since World War II. The Allies would have been better to have followed that policy after the Normandy landings. The early attacks in the North caused huge losses in men, particularly in Russia's best units that they could ill afford to lose. The Russians are desperately short of men due to their folly.

The Russian army is no force of beauty. The Russian armed forces are ugly even from a military perspective let alone a humanitarian / moral one. They're certainly not doing Judo or Wing Chun, they're no Mohammad Ali. The Russians have however proved surprisingly adept at disengagement and withdrawals. The Ukrainians did make some advances and push back the Russians north of Kharkov, but this was against 2nd rate units. Just because the Russain fanbois see everything as a Russian master-stroke doesn't mean that the Russians always get it wrong. The situation around Kharkov was handled well, given that the Russians were in a disadvantageous position and they wanted to utilise all their first line forces else where.

[Wels]

re Srpska
stop comparing this "army" with other evil in the world, stop this russian whataboutism, this is happening now, it is Russia that has started a war of conquest and nothing to whitewash about that.
They do not give a sh!t about public opinion, their own desinformation centers and propaganda do not know what to claim anymore. It is about russion conquest, not liberating the world.

Time soon coming where there will be no holding back conventionally, let Russia start a nuclear war if they like.

[Wels]

Major russian advance underway

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/05/20/7347451/

[Rich]

@Rich , you are a closet Russia apologist, aren't you?

Funnily enough my fundamental attitude to Russia post Soviet Union is the same as my attitude towards Russia from Frederick the Great to the October Revolution. Russia is a force for bad in the North and West, but a force for good in the south and east. We in the West, with weapons supply, intelligence and economic power have huge influence in this conflict, we should therefore have huge leverage in any peace settlement. I would like to see us use that leverage to get the Russian out of Kalingrad. If the Germans don't want it back then it could be partitioned between Poland and Lithuania.

Far from being soft on Russia, I'm the only person that I'm aware of who has suggested that if Russia's going to continue to make these nuclear threats, that we should start thinking about making a first strategic nuclear strike against Russia. Russia's second strike capability is a lot more limited than ours. Let's just ask Putin outright. Lets say to Putin that we are going to carry on doing things that you consider provocations. Supplying powerful weapons system to Ukraine, training their forces, moving troops and weapons into Romania, Poland the Baltics and now maybe Finland. We should ask Putin direct, "Does this make nuclear war inevitable, were you really serious? Or were all your threats really just hot air?" If its the latter then fine, but if its the former then I suggest that a strategic nuclear first strike against Russia is the only rational way to go.

As part of the above we really should start properly re-examining the nuclear winter hypothesis. A lot of this was got up during the Cold War by Commies, Commie lovers, fellow travellers and appeasers, the scientific foundation for it really is quite shaky..

[late]

As part of the above we really should start properly re-examining the nuclear winter hypothesis. A lot of this was got up during the Cold War by Commies, Commie lovers, fellow travellers and appeasers, the scientific foundation for it really is quite shaky..

The guy that came up with the idea was Dr. Turco, a professor of atmospheric science at the University of California at Los Angeles..

Not a Commie..

While scientists have reduced their estimation of what the climate change would be, a nuclear war is still beyond insane.

[Independent_Srpska]

Beautiful karma.

I hope every NATO warmonger will join this future dickless moron.

[Rich]

While scientists have reduced their estimation of what the climate change would be, a nuclear war is still beyond insane.

Well first off talk to Putin not me, he's the one who started it. So NATO itself is largely irrelevant. Correct me if I'm wrong but NATO stopped supplying weapons to Ukraine as soon as Russia invaded. Individual NATO members have supplied lots of stuff, but again I might be wrong on this but my understanding is that this hasn't been done through the NATO organisation.

If I have an ongoing meta criticism of western foreign policy, it is that the West so very often tends to combine (hypocritical) legalistic and moralistic maximalism with militaristic minimalism. When it comes to NATO, my view is that we either need to get Turkey out of NATO or get out ourselves out of NATO and form a new western aligned organisation, ideally including Taiwan, India, South Korea and Japan. Anyway we don't need to wait for NATO membership to move forces and weapon systems into Finland.

What I'm suggesting is that we tell Putin we are going to do this. We say to him we are not going to waste time trying to persuade you of the rightness of these actions. But equally don't waste our time trying to persuade of the wrongness of these actions. For right or for wrong we're doing it. "Does this make nuclear war inevitable?" Simple question!

Putin's threats of nuclear weapons at the start of this may have been crazy talk, but it was crazy talk that worked. The West backed down from sending troops in and mostly held back on serious weapons supplies. This gave the Russian army vital time to achieve facts on the ground, to break Ukraine. As it turned out the Russian army was not able to use that time and suffered huge losses in its attempt for a quick knock out blow. But still Putin's crazy talk worked.

We were partly saved by Boris Johnson. At the time Boris Johnson had more important things on his mind, than worrying about trivia like avoiding an all out nuclear holocaust. Boris Johnson understands the two most important rules for a top level political career. Never put the short term interests of your country before the long term interests of your party and never put the short term interests of your party before the long term interests of your political career. Boris Johnson knew his premiership was hanging by a thread and the last thing he needed was any diminution in the sense of crisis and fear.

Things are currently dangerously unbalanced. We need more crazy talkers in the West. Its very dangerous when all the crazy talkers are on one side. It can easily lead to a catastrophic miscalculation, when one side has the monopoly on crazy talk and no fear of the the other sides crazy talkers.

[JohnRawls]

Oh yeah, finally. We will provide real air defence systems to Ukraine. US will start sending Patriot air defence systems soon.

[Rancid]

Oh yeah, finally. We will provide real air defence systems to Ukraine. US will start sending Patriot air defence systems soon.

Where did you read this?

As far as I can tell, Ukraine say's it doesn't have the means to push back Russia significantly (the can probably take some land back, but not a ton). Basically starting to prime the population for the fact that they will have to give up land to Russia.

[late]

Things are currently dangerously unbalanced.

We need more crazy talkers in the West.

Its very dangerous when all the crazy talkers are on one side. It can easily lead to a catastrophic miscalculation, when one side has the monopoly on crazy talk and no fear of the the other sides crazy talkers.

Yes.

Escalating our involvement is far too likely to lead to WW3. As I observed earlier, that's beyond insane, and not by a small amount.

Nonsense, MAD works because of fear. Our puny brains discount the future, but we can understand death in the immediate future.

[Rancid]

Western heroes in Mariupol:

Really tickles the almonds...

You are reading that map wrong. The nations that "support nazism" were voting for free speech. This resolution was a Russian disinformation and propaganda tactic. Of course, it worked, because like you, Russia is a shithole.

The green are people that are asshole authoritarians, or people that basically do not understand the concept and nuance of free speech and voted on face value. A lot of those same nations in green condemned the invasion as well which probably means they took it at face value. It is effective propaganda I have to say. All the more reason to smack down the Russian orcs.

As explained by the US UN mission:
https://usun.usmission.gov/explanation- ... of-nazism/

All igor has done on this thread is misinterpret maps. That is the problem with maps, they lack context. This is why propagandist love them.

[JohnRawls]

Where did you read this?

As far as I can tell, Ukraine say's it doesn't have the means to push back Russia significantly (the can probably take some land back, but not a ton). Basically starting to prime the population for the fact that they will have to give up land to Russia.

Through the land lease package. Ukraine will have the means to push back the Russians starting from late June.

[Rancid]

Through the land lease package. Ukraine will have the means to push back the Russians starting from late June.

Yea, I've read this a few times, that in June/July, they will likely try to push back Russia, but maybe this is a mistranslated or something. Zelensky seemed to start indicating that they will have to accept some land loss.

[JohnRawls]

Yea, I've read this a few times, that in June/July, they will likely try to push back Russia, but maybe this is a mistranslated or something. Zelensky seemed to start indicating that they will have to accept some land loss.

Not sure where you get that from but Ukraine stoping diplomatic negotiations suggests that your idea is wrong. Right now Ukraine is that outcome will be decided on the battlefield mode along with extending the war measures for 3 more months 2 days ago.