Denazifying and handing over all of these lands to Russia is the only way to achieve lasting peace - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15223352
MadMonk wrote:
Several thousand fascists and Nazis will be killed,



You're stating this in a very *value-neutral* way -- shouldn't the world *want* several thousand fascists and Nazis to be killed, or at least neutralized -- ?


MadMonk wrote:
That is genocide, cultural and spiritual.



This may be *overstating* -- any word on what the U.S. decimation of Iraq (etc.) was during the early 2000s, if not *really* genocide -- ?
#15223353
Rich wrote:
However the responsibility for this extraordinary situation lies entirely with Vladimir Putin and Russia. if Ukraine hadn't relied on these Neo Nazi fanatics, both in 2014 and again in 2022, it would no longer be a free, independent sovereign state. Its the same way that Afghanistan had to rely on Islamic fanatics to free them from Soviet imperialist invaders. The difference being that Ukraine has managed to minimise the influence of these Neo Nazis within the Ukrainian body politique.



I don't think that the 'outsourcing' of political activity -- as to the far-right here -- means that one gets their 'services' for free.

As we saw in 2014, allowing fascists to have the upper-hand means that power is effectively *ceded* to them.

Is the medicine worth the cure if the patient winds up being a zombie-monster -- ?

To reset, let's look at where Europe is in relation to its main energy provider:



Russia supplies a significant volume of fossil fuels to other European countries. In 2021 it was the largest exporter of oil and natural gas to the European Union,[1] and 40% of gas consumed in the EU came from Russia.[2]

In 2017, energy products accounted for around 60% of the EU's total imports from Russia.[3] According to Eurostat, 30% of the EU's petroleum oil imports and 39% of total gas imports came from Russia in 2017. For Estonia, Poland, Slovakia and Finland, more than 75% of their imports of petroleum oils originated in Russia.[3]

The Russian state-owned company Gazprom exports natural gas to Europe. It also controls many subsidiaries, including various infrastructure assets. According to a study published by the Research Centre for East European Studies, the liberalization of the EU gas market has driven Gazprom's expansion in Europe by increasing its share in the European downstream market. It has established sale subsidiaries in many of its export markets, and has also invested in access to industrial and power generation sectors in Western and Central Europe. In addition, Gazprom has established joint ventures to build natural gas pipelines and storage depots in a number of European countries.[4]

The dependency on Russian fossil fuels poses energy security risks for Europe.[5] In a number of disputes Russia used pipeline shutdowns, which motivated the European Union to diversify its energy sources.[6] The rapid expansion of renewables in the European energy market would allow for less imports. As a reaction, Russia is expanding its export abilities towards China, as it has only one pipeline.[7][5] In response to the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, the European Commission presented a plan to reduce gas imports from Russia by two thirds within a year, and completely by 2030.[8]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in ... rgy_sector
#15223381
Tainari88 wrote:
They want the old glory days. Make Russia Great Again with a Putin Fascist man in charge



My concern here is that your use of the term 'Fascist' is inappropriate and confusing -- doesn't one's professed ideology count for anything anymore? Fascists have all that Nazi shit, while Putin is a Russian nationalist / ultra-nationalist.


Tainari88 wrote:
How is this going to be resolved? Someone selling Ukraine a lot of arms.



Say 'when'....


Biden approves $800M in new military assistance for Ukraine

https://apnews.com/fa45063a7df21fd55342cf5a2ad1fb7f
#15223384

Given the push to impose a total European embargo on Russian oil and gas imports, one questioner asked whether there had been any consideration by the ECB about the potential impact of such a move.

She acknowledged that an abrupt boycott of oil and gas would have a “significant impact” but then continued: “But have we actually factored in exactly the net amount, the trade-off resulting from such a boycott? No.”

Some forecasts have been made. German chancellor Olaf Scholz said last month that an embargo on Russian oil and gas supplies “would mean plunging our country and the whole of Europe into a recession. Hundreds of thousands of jobs would be at risk. Entire branches of industry are on the brink.”

This assessment was endorsed by a forecast by five German economic institutes last week. It said a full embargo would trigger a major recession in Germany, result in a 2.2 percent fall in output and wipe out more than 400,000 jobs. The report said a full embargo, after slowing growth this year, would lead to a contraction of 2.2 percent in 2023 with the cumulative impact over two years greater than that of the pandemic.

Supporting Scholz’s comments on the effect of an embargo, the BDI, a major German business lobby group, said it would have “incalculable consequences,” including production disruptions, employment losses and “massive damage to production facilities” in some cases.

BDI president Sigfried Russwurm warned the European Union was not prepared for such a move. It would “jeopardise [EU] unity and [its] ability to act economically and politically” and a total boycott would “tear the EU apart.”



https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/0 ... i-a18.html
#15223385
ckaihatsu wrote:My concern here is that your use of the term 'Fascist' is inappropriate and confusing -- doesn't one's professed ideology count for anything anymore? Fascists have all that Nazi shit, while Putin is a Russian nationalist / ultra-nationalist.





Say 'when'....


Biden approves $800M in new military assistance for Ukraine

https://apnews.com/fa45063a7df21fd55342cf5a2ad1fb7f


I think the term is appropriate. If you study Putin he is fascist. Right wing fascist dictator that wants to re-conquer the old Soviet territories. He makes no bones about it. He is an ultra nationalist. There are ultra nationalists who would never dream of invading other nations to impose control by force on them. Putin is not one of them. The USA has always done imperialism. For many reasons.

But Russia via Putin wants to make sure he survives. He worries about his legacy because the old dictator is getting up there in years. He has billions of dollars. He is not some true Leftist from the KGB. He is a fascist dictator Ckaihatsu. No bones about it. The man convinced Trump not to listen to his intelligence community. I have my doubts on what that man has on Trump that is so important for Trump to be beholden to him really? But killing innocent civilians especially after they gave up Nukes in their agreements is about a callous ambitious dictator. No other real conclusion you can reach about him.

If you are against imperialism you are against that invasion. But all invasions for the purpose of force versus negotiation are wrong. Unfortunately that happens with superpowers very often. Ambition and greed. It is a bad combo.
#15223387
Tainari88 wrote:
I think the term is appropriate. If you study Putin he is fascist. Right wing fascist dictator that wants to re-conquer the old Soviet territories. He makes no bones about it. He is an ultra nationalist. There are ultra nationalists who would never dream of invading other nations to impose control by force on them. Putin is not one of them. The USA has always done imperialism. For many reasons.

But Russia via Putin wants to make sure he survives. He worries about his legacy because the old dictator is getting up there in years. He has billions of dollars. He is not some true Leftist from the KGB. He is a fascist dictator Ckaihatsu. No bones about it. The man convinced Trump not to listen to his intelligence community. I have my doubts on what that man has on Trump that is so important for Trump to be beholden to him really? But killing innocent civilians especially after they gave up Nukes in their agreements is about a callous ambitious dictator. No other real conclusion you can reach about him.

If you are against imperialism you are against that invasion. But all invasions for the purpose of force versus negotiation are wrong. Unfortunately that happens with superpowers very often. Ambition and greed. It is a bad combo.



I *hear* ya, but I think I'll just pick through it with my fingers and select 'dictator' over 'fascist' -- 'fascist' has a distinctly *world-domination* imperialist racist connotation to it, while Putin's nationalism can't really be called 'imperialist', what with NATO casting a shadow over Russia's doorstep.

I'm not *for* the slightest adventurism, but I'm just not seeing it here -- not like *Morsi*, once he got into power.



Syria

As a staunch supporter of the opposition forces in the Syrian Civil War, Morsi attended an Islamist rally on 15 June 2013, where Salafi clerics called for jihad in Syria and denounced supporters of Bashar al-Assad as "infidels."[111] Morsi, who announced at the rally that his government had expelled Syria's ambassador and closed the Syrian embassy in Cairo, called for international intervention on behalf of the opposition forces in the effect of an establishment of a no-fly zone.[112]

Although he did not explicitly call for Egyptians to join the opposition armed forces in the Syrian conflict, Morsi's attendance at 15 June rally was seen by many to be an implicit nod-of-approval for the Islamist clerics' calls for jihad in Syria.[111][113] Morsi was criticized by Egyptian analysts for attending and speaking at the rally, while the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) released a statement the day after the rally saying that its only role is to protect Egypt's borders, in an apparent ruling out of support for intervention in Syria.[111] Morsi's attendance at the rally was later revealed to be a major factor in the largely secular SCAF's decision to side with anti-Morsi protesters over the Morsi government during the widespread June 2013 anti-Morsi protests.[111]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Morsi#Syria
#15223398
ckaihatsu wrote:I *hear* ya, but I think I'll just pick through it with my fingers and select 'dictator' over 'fascist' -- 'fascist' has a distinctly *world-domination* imperialist racist connotation to it, while Putin's nationalism can't really be called 'imperialist', what with NATO casting a shadow over Russia's doorstep.

I'm not *for* the slightest adventurism, but I'm just not seeing it here -- not like *Morsi*, once he got into power.


I believe he is following this man's directions. He is an extreme right figure in Russian politics.

Invasions happen because of certain reasons. One of them is about the idea of protecting what the superpower thinks of as their backyard.

Look at this four-star general Laura Richardson. A woman general from the USA? See how she talks about encroachment? The superpowers divide the world up into my backyard, your backyard. My area of influence and your area of influence. And the present dominant nations don't want to lose their influence or domination. They don't respect the weak or the resistance to their plans. In the final analysis, only the strong survive. They don't respect small nations without nukes' ability to fight off whatever the corporations or the military powers like Russia or PRC or USA etc might want to have to happen within their own governments. There are a lot of lies circulating about respecting national borders. But the truth is if it threatens their interests of theirs? Not really. It is all lies. That is the reality.




All of that will be destroyed if climate change batters us so badly that the entire supply chain and the very idea of global markets are destroyed. It all depends on how willing the imperialists are to give up on control and world domination.

So far? The picture is grim.

#15223407
Tainari88 wrote:
I believe he is following this man's directions. He is an extreme right figure in Russian politics.

Invasions happen because of certain reasons. One of them is about the idea of protecting what the superpower thinks of as their backyard.

Look at this four-star general Laura Richardson. A woman general from the USA? See how she talks about encroachment? The superpowers divide the world up into my backyard, your backyard. My area of influence and your area of influence. And the present dominant nations don't want to lose their influence or domination. They don't respect the weak or the resistance to their plans. In the final analysis, only the strong survive. They don't respect small nations without nukes' ability to fight off whatever the corporations or the military powers like Russia or PRC or USA etc might want to have to happen within their own governments. There are a lot of lies circulating about respecting national borders. But the truth is if it threatens their interests of theirs? Not really. It is all lies. That is the reality.


https:// youtu.be/NyflBGwh6zE

All of that will be destroyed if climate change batters us so badly that the entire supply chain and the very idea of global markets are destroyed. It all depends on how willing the imperialists are to give up on control and world domination.

So far? The picture is grim.

https:// youtu.be/Du7fOoW_euE



Without meaning to be too idealistic I think there's something to be said for the pickup in non-dollar-denominated international commerce, by those unilaterally 'sanctioned' by the U.S. and summarily denied access to the dollar.

From developments we've seen that the U.S. dollar is only as good as the muscle backing it up, and that it's the name of the game, too -- militarist-backed protection-racket currency as the world's visual apex, stretching skyward against the radiant sun.

If inflated costs have the economy hamstrung *logistically* -- backed-up supertankers -- then maybe the 'capital' dynamic simply *can't* be flexible enough to accommodate such a historical tsunami of material (commodity) productivity, to where even the *currency itself* can't keep up with it, to provide sensible valuations, and liquidity for reasonable pricing regimes / paradigms.

Can't we just say that Russia / Putin is like the 'Merovingian' from The Matrix, with his own aristocratic dynasty of base resource-extraction -- ? Are we done here now? (grin)
#15223467
@Tainari88

Water wars

I believe the whole affair is stupid and unnecessary. Putin should have taken only what he needed - the water supply to Crimea* - instead of being drawn into a willy-waving contest with NATO.

It would have been all over in a week with minimum casualties.

* In 2013, the amount of irrigated land suitable for cultivation reached 130 000 hectares. In 2017, it shrunk down to 14 000 hectares. The problem was most acute in eastern Crimea, where the amount of irrigated land decreased by 92%. Many people employed in the agricultural sector lost their jobs as a result. Without irrigation, Crimean soil starts to degrade, returning to the state it was in before the construction of the NCC – semi-desert.
#15223486
Godstud wrote:The only Nazis in Ukraine are the Russian invaders.

I guess there's no Nazis in Ukraine in the same way there were no military interventions by the US in Thailand during the cold war.

if forced to choose I would prefer to live under Pax Zelenski than Pax Putin. I prefer to live under Pax Biden than to live under, Pax Xi, Pax Assad or Pax Taliban. But at the same time I recognise that when Biden says “We Choose Truth Over Facts”, what he's saying is fundamentally Putinesque. When Biden says truth he means what many of us would better describe as doctrine. Biden is saying we will not tolerate facts that undermine our doctrines or narratives.

And before anyone accuses me of giving the right a pass. Trump's offer to pay the legal fees of anyone who assaulted a protester at his rally's is text book fascism. Trump's demand to put Hilary in jail is thoroughly fascistic. Democracy works on the principle that losers go into opposition rather prison or the firing squad. Both Trump and Hilary, with her, can't we drone strike Assaunge, had strong fascistic impulses. The majority of humanity if not actualised fascists are latent fascists and it takes surprisingly little stimulus to bring out those latent tendencies.

Anyway there very clearly are significant neo Nazi movements in Ukraine. Accepting this fact doesn't mean we have to support Putin in taking over the place. in 1939 ethnic Germans in Danzig and in Poland were having their rights compromised. But recognising this fact doesn't mean we should have allowed Hitler to conquer Poland unchallenged. it is possible to recognise the greater evil, while still recognising that evil is pretty much never absolutely confined to one side. It is possible to recognise the greater evil in a time and place and to act against that greater evil, while still recognising that the greater evil may well change with time and place.

In Ukraine I suggest a further even more radical step. Not only that we recognise the evil of significant Neo Nazi organisation in Ukraine. But for the time being it is a necessary evil. Whether through cowardice or prudence, we are not prepared to send our forces into Ukraine. Without the Azov formation and other far right militias Ukraine would not have survived as an independent state.
#15223488
Rich wrote:I guess there's no Nazis in Ukraine in the same way there were no military interventions by the US in Thailand during the cold war
. Not relevant to the conversation. Nazi supporters don't like this though, do you?

The neo-Nazis in Ukraine were PRO-Russian.

Also:

One of the worst ways Putin is gaslighting the world on Ukraine
Putin isn’t fighting neo-Nazism. He nurtures it, making his pretext for invading Ukraine even more repellent.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/p ... -rcna23043
#15223510
Godstud wrote:. Not relevant to the conversation. Nazi supporters don't like this though, do you?

The neo-Nazis in Ukraine were PRO-Russian.

Also:

One of the worst ways Putin is gaslighting the world on Ukraine
Putin isn’t fighting neo-Nazism. He nurtures it, making his pretext for invading Ukraine even more repellent.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/p ... -rcna23043




Putin is a Right wing guy with extreme right views.That is clear as day.

He also knows just how deep the resentment and hatred of the Nazis go in Russia. Russia took the full brunt of the German SS and Army and so on and Soviet losses were really high. So calling it denazification? He thought it would bring him vast support.

I think it is part of the Alexaander D guy's long term goal that he likes to follow.

In the end I hate all invasions with a passion. Including my own nation's invasion in1898 with shitty excuses of bringing freedom and justice for all and it wound up being a ploy for neo-colonial behavior.

That is why I am against imperialism. It is never about respecting the needs and desires of the occupied people. It is about imposing shit from afar by a greedy and power drunk group of people. In the end the impositions won't ever lead to anything good in the long run. No matter how rosy they try to paint the picture. It is about some form of selfish imperialism.
#15228866
You people are talking as if the West is AGAINST Naziism. This is not true.

In the UN vote against glorifying Naziism of 2018, the USA and Ukraine voted AGAINST. In other words, they voted FOR the continued freedom to glorify Naziism.

Most Western countries - like Canada and the EU - abstained. Like they were neutral either way.

Image

So we are neutral regarding Naziism, and voted to demonstrate this to the entire world. Russia, on the other hand, voted AGAINST glorifying Naziism.

So really, this "war" is Anti-Nazi Russia against a Nazi-friendly West.

Not surprising when you think where fascism was successful in the 20th Century. The most genocidal regimes on Earth are from Europe, and then their colonies.
#15228905
QatzelOk wrote:You people are talking as if the West is AGAINST Naziism. This is not true.

In the UN vote against glorifying Naziism of 2018, the USA and Ukraine voted AGAINST. In other words, they voted FOR the continued freedom to glorify Naziism.

Most Western countries - like Canada and the EU - abstained. Like they were neutral either way.

Image

So we are neutral regarding Naziism, and voted to demonstrate this to the entire world. Russia, on the other hand, voted AGAINST glorifying Naziism.

So really, this "war" is Anti-Nazi Russia against a Nazi-friendly West.

Not surprising when you think where fascism was successful in the 20th Century. The most genocidal regimes on Earth are from Europe, and then their colonies.


I addressed this in the other thread. The context around this map is what you are missing (and what propgandist love).

In short, the western nations that abstained or voted against did so on the principle of free speech. Not because they actually support Nazism. The "other" nations that voted in favor basically voted at face value without understanding or caring about the free speech component/nuance.

The resolution was brought about by Russia itself to basically propagandize the UN for its own purposes. Which it has done successfully.

What you are seeing there really:

green = nations against free speech, or that don't care about it.
red-yellow = nations that care about free speech.

Qatz, funny that you are for cracking down on people's freedom of expression.
#15228976
Rancid wrote:
I addressed this in the other thread. The context around this map is what you are missing (and what propgandist love).

In short, the western nations that abstained or voted against did so on the principle of free speech. Not because they actually support Nazism. The "other" nations that voted in favor basically voted at face value without understanding or caring about the free speech component/nuance.

The resolution was brought about by Russia itself to basically propagandize the UN for its own purposes. Which it has done successfully.

What you are seeing there really:

green = nations against free speech, or that don't care about it.
red-yellow = nations that care about free speech.

Qatz, funny that you are for cracking down on people's freedom of expression.



I *heard* about this, a long time ago -- I think the international geopolitical system has been like this for at least several decades now, and probably since the late 19th century when imperial German industry became quickly established, rivaling the mercantilist West.

So there should be a *loophole*, of 'free speech' for Nazism.

I really don't think *anyone* had *that* kind of 'free speech' in mind when they heard 'free speech', so that's kind of a *stretch*.

Especially after the latest preventable tragedy, due to Nazis:


Buffalo suspect's online diary prompts questions about missed warning signs

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/20/11002002 ... -red-flags
#15228980
Igor Antunov wrote:Last I checked 180,000 Russian troops are in Ukraine, still 150+ airstrikes daily.

You're the serial coper. I'm just accepting the sorry fate of all those who oppose Russia.


Has any country successfully annexed another through military invasion without endless civil war since the ak-47 was invented?
#15228982
Unthinking Majority wrote:Has any country successfully annexed another through military invasion without endless civil war since the ak-47 was invented?


Yes. Russia.

Emirate of Chechnya. Republic of Crimea. Soon Republic of Belarus and Donbas Republics.

-xinjiang has a right to self determination because their separatism is 100% organic and not CIA backed at all
-hong kong has a right to self determination because their separatism is 100% organic and not CIA backed at all
-tibet has a right to self determination because their separatism is 100% organic and not CIA backed at all
-kosovo has a right to self determination because their separatism is 100% organic and not CIA backed at all
-donbas has no right to self determination because uhhhhh it just doesn't
-catalonia has no right to self determination because uhhhhh it just doesn't
-Nagorno Karabakh has no right to self determination because uhhhhh it just doesn't
>etc

Western ideology is defunct. It serves no real world purpose anymore.
Image

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