I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 61 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15228690
late wrote:"This trend will shortly be universal in the West"

First, Genghis Khan wasn't big on ideology, he was into power.

Second, movements come and go.

Third the West is secular, and it's bone deep. We just fought off a big wave of that sort of nonsense. And we're helping Ukraine fight off that sort of nonsense.

Fourth, that sort of ideology is propaganda, an excuse to seize power. Some may believe, but it is what it is.


Like I said, you rather prove my point. Now I would be happy to discuss these matters elsewhere, but as an atheist you are kind of shitting on the sub forum here.
#15228771
"Islam then is the caricature, the strawman, the parody of Magian culture which Faustian civilization moves against when it further divests itself of any Monotheistic heritage. That's all it is regardless of actual content or natural living reality to its adherents."

This is close to the heart of the matter, what I wrote. As an Orthodox Christian, I recall the centuries of heresies where Nestorianism led to Monophysitism in over reaction, and so it is with Islam and with Western heresies, only much worse. Now, I understand too that this " caricature " of Islam is what Westerners see: " religious fanatics " and " god besotted and deluded crazies" and " obscuritanist reactionaries ", when they can be saying this of any serious active Monotheist.

Indeed, if you consider the recent period 1914-1945, it has already had terrible consequences around the world, including the previously mentioned Iranian Islamic Revolution of 1979, a mere generation before. But was this due to the religious?
#15228853
late wrote:"Thus, modern movements like the Azov in the Ukraine: anti Islamic, anti semitic, anti Orthodox Christian, Pagan and explicitly white supremacist, are at the material tip of the spear of the Western trend. This trend will shortly be universal in the West, open and only weakly opposed. Movements like Azov are the future of the West, just starting, not ending. "

Politics in robes, and still crap.

The West is secular, and for good reasons. While movements arise, they don't last.


@late While I disagree (at least in the case of the US) that the west is secular (as much as some may want it to be) you, just like I, have been dismissed from this thread. You for being an atheist and I for being a heretical protestant.
#15228855
Drlee wrote:@late While I disagree (at least in the case of the US) that the west is secular (as much as some may want it to be) you, just like I, have been dismissed from this thread. You for being an atheist and I for being a heretical protestant.


@Drlee :

Nobody has dismissed you from any discussion on this thread, not in the slightest and you should know better. Late is just contravening the purpose of this sub forum with Atheist snipe and run, whereas you and I could have a discussion if you were truly willing to have one.

You might in fact recall the Atheist godstud and I having productive discussions here, right?

Point being, that my contention is that not only is secularism a Western construct, and an obviously growing one within Western civilization, its course in the future will take forms unpredictable to Western liberals but quite predictable to traditional Christian people.

Take Trump and his brand of the American post Christian Right, for example
#15229213
I wrote:

"....my contention is that not only is secularism a Western construct, and an obviously growing one within Western civilization, its course in the future will take forms unpredictable to Western liberals but quite predictable to traditional Christian people.

Take Trump and his brand of the American post Christian Right, for example".

I'll elaborate on this, since I feel like I have not spoken about one of the most significant people to have been President in a very long time, Donald Trump. Western liberals of course are quick to dismiss him and exaggerate his flaws and wildly misinterpret both him and those who have a propensity to vote for him.

He uses that, of course, like he uses everything. But I won't go too far in relaying my observations of him. Too many ignore and misunderstand what's going on, most willfully.

How does a godless man like him, a wealthy materialist and paragon of Capitalism and how it really works in the real world, get the vote of so many Christians in America? Because he understands them while they refuse to understand themselves. Same problem as his enemies have with him, his followers do also.

But were I to call it Fascism, again, too many misunderstandings.

For one thing, while all this is true, it is simply impossible at this point for the Liberal elites in America to figure out regular working class people in their own country. Trump does, and he does so with the complete rationality of a man entirely aware of his own Capitalist and Bourgeoisie loyalties.

The guy is a complete Pagan at the apex of a system that rewards such Paganism. His followers are not bothered by his anti Christian beliefs and attitudes because he and they share the same worldview untouched by anything more than a nominal sort of Christianity. He can only go fowards given the state of his opposition against him. In fact if I didn't know any better, Trump arranged to lose in 2020, if only to be in a position to utterly defeat his enemies afterwards and with their own help, so to speak.
#15229216
annatar1914 wrote:I wrote:

"....my contention is that not only is secularism a Western construct, and an obviously growing one within Western civilization, its course in the future will take forms unpredictable to Western liberals but quite predictable to traditional Christian people.

Take Trump and his brand of the American post Christian Right, for example".

I'll elaborate on this, since I feel like I have not spoken about one of the most significant people to have been President in a very long time, Donald Trump. Western liberals of course are quick to dismiss him and exaggerate his flaws and wildly misinterpret both him and those who have a propensity to vote for him.

He uses that, of course, like he uses everything. But I won't go too far in relaying my observations of him. Too many ignore and misunderstand what's going on, most willfully.

How does a godless man like him, a wealthy materialist and paragon of Capitalism and how it really works in the real world, get the vote of so many Christians in America? Because he understands them while they refuse to understand themselves. Same problem as his enemies have with him, his followers do also.

But were I to call it Fascism, again, too many misunderstandings.

For one thing, while all this is true, it is simply impossible at this point for the Liberal elites in America to figure out regular working class people in their own country. Trump does, and he does so with the complete rationality of a man entirely aware of his own Capitalist and Bourgeoisie loyalties.

The guy is a complete Pagan at the apex of a system that rewards such Paganism. His followers are not bothered by his anti Christian beliefs and attitudes because he and they share the same worldview untouched by anything more than a nominal sort of Christianity. He can only go fowards given the state of his opposition against him. In fact if I didn't know any better, Trump arranged to lose in 2020, if only to be in a position to utterly defeat his enemies afterwards and with their own help, so to speak.

Precisely right, I think. And what the American Christians refuse to understand about themselves is that they are not Christians. After all, to be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ. And what did Christ say to people who wanted to follow him? “When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’” (Luke 18:22) To follow Christ - to be a Christian - means renouncing worldly possessions and everything the world calls ‘success’. Instead, the American ‘Christians’ preach the ‘Prosperity Gospel’, and their Evangelical preachers live in mansions and own fleets of yachts and cars, paid for by their followers’ donations. They are spitting in Christ’s face.
#15229265
Potemkin wrote:Precisely right, I think. And what the American Christians refuse to understand about themselves is that they are not Christians. After all, to be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ. And what did Christ say to people who wanted to follow him? “When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’” (Luke 18:22) To follow Christ - to be a Christian - means renouncing worldly possessions and everything the world calls ‘success’. Instead, the American ‘Christians’ preach the ‘Prosperity Gospel’, and their Evangelical preachers live in mansions and own fleets of yachts and cars, paid for by their followers’ donations. They are spitting in Christ’s face.


I don't disagree at all. Just to be clear. You do not believe that the Orthodox world offers anything much different, do you?
#15229272
Potemkin wrote:Precisely right, I think. And what the American Christians refuse to understand about themselves is that they are not Christians. After all, to be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ. And what did Christ say to people who wanted to follow him? “When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’” (Luke 18:22) To follow Christ - to be a Christian - means renouncing worldly possessions and everything the world calls ‘success’. Instead, the American ‘Christians’ preach the ‘Prosperity Gospel’, and their Evangelical preachers live in mansions and own fleets of yachts and cars, paid for by their followers’ donations. They are spitting in Christ’s face.


@Potemkin :

Well, they are. And this is the mark of the arrow shot at the far bank, so to speak. Secularized West does not end in some high science technological atheist utopia but in an exceedingly
stupid and dissolute worldliness and crass materialism, complete with seedy sex and drugs and rock and roll covered with a patina of meaningless religious cant and stock phrases.

The untranslatable Russian phrase "Poshlost", familiar to readers of Nabokov and other writers, comes to mind.

Clown World, where all greatness has been exiled from history. Dostoevsky's insight into the Devil, in " Brothers Karamazov", that the Devil is terribly banal and rather stupid in a way.

But then look at Judas Iscariot in the Garden, possessed by Satan, when he kisses Jesus... it recalls the Psalmist: " Kiss the Son, lest He be angry....". Betraying the Son of Man for a measly 30 pieces of silver.

Western Liberals who don't understand Trump (all of them) need to watch Professional Wrestling (read up on the concept of Keyfabe!) and Kenneth Copeland. Or spend time in an intimate examination of a Casino, a Flea Market, or a Circus, or Strip Joint.

For this is the truth about the modern world.
#15229308
Drlee wrote:I don't disagree at all. Just to be clear. You do not believe that the Orthodox world offers anything much different, do you?


It really depends on the 'much'.

Annatar and Potemkin make these observations starting from very high vantage points.

Constrasting the monastic with the non-monastic person does not really do anything to forward the conversation of ethics within society .ie a non-monastic group.

This vantage point of the monastic is not very helpful in that regard.

There are cultural and ethical differences between say Greeks and Americans and among all social groups. Today these differences are rapidly vanishing due to globalisation, netflix, youtube, the internet and so on, however 20 years ago these differences were a lot more pronounced.

One example I can think of is that crime levels are very disparate between some European countries and the US for example.

Not that this is down to religion, but there is something to be said.
#15229309
noemon wrote:It really depends on the 'much'.

Annatar and Potemkin make these observations starting from very high vantage points.

Constrasting the monastic with the non-monastic person does not really do anything to forward the conversation of ethics within society .ie a non-monastic group.

This vantage point of the monastic is not very helpful in that regard.

There are cultural and ethical differences between say Greeks and Americans and among all social groups. Today these differences are rapidly vanishing due to globalisation, netflix, youtube, the internet and so on, however 20 years ago these differences were a lot more pronounced.

One example I can think of is that crime levels are very disparate between some European countries and the US for example.

Not that this is down to religion, but there is something to be said.


@noemon :

I wouldn't say " high vantage point " of a Monastic (not that there's anything wrong with that-a Monastic is a sick person working with the Physician in order to be well), so much as even the general moral level of my youth would be better. Decline set in a long time ago before that, centuries ago even, and unless we really are in the Later Days, it will take a lot of struggle collectively to achieve a measure of spiritual regeneration. The answer being the same as in the individual person: prayer and fasting, humility and repentance, enlightenment by God.
#15229311
Potemkin wrote:Not really, no.


@Potemkin :

At present it might not seem that way. But there's a reason why things happen when and where they do. And to whom they happen: as a pro life Orthodox Christian for example I can only have a consistent ethic favorable to life by being a Socialist too. I know that I'm by no means the only one either.
#15229313
so much as even the general moral level of my youth would be better.


That is where we should be focusing, on current modern life within living memory. High vantage points or romantic times simply distract from asserting the very obvious moral & cultural decadence.

Decline set in a long time ago before that, centuries ago even, and unless we really are in the Later Days, it will take a lot of struggle collectively to achieve a measure of spiritual regeneration.


I agree that it takes a lot of struggle, especially because in the west people have to create the struggle and against serious obstacles. It requires double-effort, like someone starting running again after 20 years of physical abuse.

How can religion help? By actively participating on social messaging via film productions studios, media, social media and indirectly from the church itself.

Churches around the world have the money to dip their toe in various projects and if it is done with the required diligence then it can be succesful.

At present it might not seem that way. But there's a reason why things happen when and where they do. And to whom they happen: as a pro life Orthodox Christian for example I can only have a consistent ethic favorable to life by being a Socialist too. I know that I'm by no means the only one either.


This is total nonsense, a good christian judges people on their merit and votes with logic on active matters and not by making abstract associations. In this case the abstract association is also quite wrong, because socialism has traditionally been the enemy of christianity in a big way.
#15229322
noemon wrote:That is where we should be focusing, on current modern life within living memory. High vantage points or romantic times simply distract from asserting the very obvious moral & cultural decadence.



I agree that it takes a lot of struggle, especially because in the west people have to create the struggle and against serious obstacles. It requires double-effort, like someone starting running again after 20 years of physical abuse.

How can religion help? By actively participating on social messaging via film productions studios, media, social media and indirectly from the church itself.

Churches around the world have the money to dip their toe in various projects and if it is done with the required diligence then it can be succesful.



This is total nonsense, a good christian judges people on their merit and votes with logic on active matters and not by making abstract associations. In this case the abstract association is also quite wrong, because socialism has traditionally been the enemy of christianity in a big way.


@noemon , so far so good up until the last paragraph, on the alleged abstraction of Socialism and its alleged hostility to Christianity...

Why should that be so? Can you state a necessary connection between Anti theism and Socialism?

Most traditional societies have been very communitarian historically speaking. So why should the solution to Modernity not also have what appears to be an integral feature of what it means to be a fulfilled human being? It does seem to be a clear antipodean to Western individualism's atomized humanity.
#15229429
It does not matter why "should it be so". The fact is that it is so. You should seek answers from socialists and marxists rather than from the messenger of this well documented historical fact.

Socialists and marxists hate religion and christianity more particular as a matter of ideological tradition.

Ideological competition clearly does not sit well with marxism.

Christians supporting socialist persecutors who are open about their anti-christian persecution is an oxymoron.
#15229431
noemon wrote:It does not matter why "should it be so". The fact is that it is so. You should seek answers from socialists and marxists rather than from the messenger of this well documented historical fact.

Socialists and marxists hate religion and christianity more particular as a matter of ideological tradition.

Ideological competition clearly does not sit well with marxism.

Christians supporting socialist persecutors who are open about their anti-christian persecution is an oxymoron.

Supporting socialism as a general principle and supporting the Bolsheviks are two different things. Hitler was a strict vegetarian. Does this mean that being a vegetarian is morally equivalent to being a Nazi? :eh:
#15229434
Potemkin wrote:Supporting socialism as a general principle and supporting the Bolsheviks are two different things. Hitler was a strict vegetarian. Does this mean that being a vegetarian is morally equivalent to being a Nazi? :eh:



Vegetarianism is not fascist. Socialism is anti-religious.

All socialist regimes have been and the ideology itself is anti-religious.
#15229439
noemon wrote:Vegetarianism is not fascist. Socialism is anti-religious.

All socialist regimes have been and the ideology itself is anti-religious.

What is your definition of ‘socialism’, @noemon?
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