Gunman kills 19 children in Texas school shooting - Page 15 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15230161
@Pants-of-dog so what you're saying is that the quote you're giving is for a shitty wall?

How much would a tall fence cost?

As for making the premises "more exploitable to weaknesses", I suspect nothing is as exploitable than having no barriers to entry except for some security guards. I don't buy this, the Great Chinese Wall had to be breached through a siege after all. Not a 5 minutes thing.
#15230165
wat0n wrote:@Pants-of-dog so what you're saying is that the quote you're giving is for a shitty wall?

How much would a tall fence cost?


The estimate I gave is for a 10’ high non-reinforced concrete block single wythe wall with a veneer on one side to make it harder to climb, made with the least expensive materials that pass basic UL and ASTM testing.

It would prevent line of sight fire from off the property and significantly lengthen the amount if time it takes an assailant to climb over it without help.

It would not stop a vehicle, prevent someone from climbing it with a ladder, or many other attacks.

As for making the premises "more exploitable to weaknesses", I suspect nothing is as exploitable than having no barriers to entry except for some security guards. I don't buy this, the Great Chinese Wall had to be breached through a siege after all. Not a 5 minutes thing.


And the vast majority of schools in the USA that would need to be retrofitted have very few barriers to entry. Robb Elementary, for example, does not even have all the buildings connected, meaning students and staff are walking around outside in view of the street several times a day.

And as @Drlee points out, we end up with schools that look like prison camps.
#15230166
Pants-of-dog wrote:For all ten schools, 5 million.
Payback period: 20 years.
5m divided by 20 is 250k.

Security budget per year: 450,000.
You want to get rid of 55% of the security budget.



It depends.

I quoted the absolute lowest price. Which suggests it would last the shortest amount of time and cost the most in maintenance.

While this is unfeasible for the school budget, it probably fits well within the police budget.


How much wall footage do you think has to be built to cover ten schools? Do realize the size of one school and surrounding land, ingress and egress roads, retrograding uneven terrain, drainage, removing concrete and other barriers already in existence, load bearing walls that need to be engineered and on and on and on?

You're going to do it for $10 a foot? You're off by at least a factor of fifteen.

Just the permitting, public commentary, urban planning and impact studies will cost you five million and spread that over multiple districts.

Wants walls for $10/foot labor and materials. :roll:

Surreal. Juuust surreal.
#15230167
Pants-of-dog wrote:The estimate I gave is for a 10’ high non-reinforced concrete block single wythe wall with a veneer on one side to make it harder to climb, made with the least expensive materials that pass basic UL and ASTM testing.

It would prevent line of sight fire from off the property and significantly lengthen the amount if time it takes an assailant to climb over it without help.

It would not stop a vehicle, prevent someone from climbing it with a ladder, or many other attacks.



And the vast majority of schools in the USA that would need to be retrofitted have very few barriers to entry. Robb Elementary, for example, does not even have all the buildings connected, meaning students and staff are walking around outside in view of the street several times a day.

And as @Drlee points out, we end up with schools that look like prison camps.


Surreal. Must be a government worker given that amount of incompetence. Do you realize what raw concrete and materials and equipment rental costs?

Holy schit. :lol:

$75 million lowball price for what you're talking about. More realistic $125 million (and I'm leaning towards myself being wrong by a factor of three)

$400 million is more realistic, judging from the size of any school and land on four sides.
#15230168
@Pants-of-dog thanks. How much would a fence with anti-climbing and anti-ramming protections cost?

Honestly I still don't see why it couldn't be done using federal funding.

@BlutoSays I'm the one who proposed building a wall, or a fence.

What's your proposal to prevent these types of attacks? Gun control, the type that a good chunk of the country won't accept? Cops everywhere? Or just give up and fuck it?
#15230169
wat0n wrote:@Pants-of-dog thanks. How much would a fence with anti-climbing and anti-ramming protections cost?

Honestly I still don't see why it couldn't be done using federal funding.

@BlutoSays I'm the one who proposed building a wall, or a fence.

What's your proposal to prevent these types of attacks? Gun control, the type that a good chunk of the country won't accept? Cops everywhere? Or just give up and fuck it?



Dude, I worked here from 2003-2005 as a contractor. Typical military base with typical security.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingto ... d_shooting
#15230171
Do you know what happened at Fort Hood? More security cleared and background investigations than you can shake a stick at. More security than you'll ever implement at a school. More firepower, more training, more cops, more support. Did it stop it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

Do you realize the problem you're trying to solve?
#15230172
@BlutoSays yes, I do. I also understand there aren't many options available to address it. We don't know for sure why these things happen more often than they used to, even though gun laws aren't substantially tighter than they used to be. It also doesn't seem likely there will be any changes to them.

Any suggestions? Physically blocking access seems like an obvious measure in this case. It doesn't solve the issue, but delaying attackers to allow for law enforcement to arrive would be a good thing by itself

Closing the premises would not really help much against attacks by insiders (like those two you linked) but stopping or delaying outsiders would be a good idea.
#15230177
@wat0n @BlutoSays @Drlee @Rancid @Scamp @Saeko @snapdragon

What really pissed me off about those dumb hick rednecks who were conducting that news conference that O’Rourke interrupted was the fact that they would direct anger at O’Rourke while showing no emotion or anger about the reason why they were there in the first place, giving a fucking news conference. That they would express no anger or emotion at all about why they were there giving a news conference or the fact that 19 9, and 10-year-old kids were gunned down in cold blood, but would fucking express anger at O’Rourke. What kind of bullshit is that? That just gets me more pissed off thinking about it. That those fuckers would express anger at O’Rourke, but no anger about the 19 kids that were gunned down in cold blood.
#15230178
Drlee wrote:The answer to people shooting children with weapons they ought not have in the first place is not to put the children in a prison camp. :roll:


You are dealing with ideas of homeland security that have to do with building walls, putting in buzz systems and guards with guns. because the kids got to get used to what happens in societies that are so overcome with violence and gun problems that being in prison is normal for the ones not committing the crimes. Don't you get that Drlee?
#15230179
Drlee wrote:The answer to people shooting children with weapons they ought not have in the first place is not to put the children in a prison camp. :roll:


OK, so how will you disarm them? Keeping in mind not just the difficulty but the fact that gun regulations don't seem to be forthcoming anytime soon.

Are there any other practical options available, keeping these political realities in mind?
#15230180
wat0n wrote:@BlutoSays yes, I do. I also understand there aren't many options available to address it. We don't know for sure why these things happen more often than they used to, even though gun laws aren't substantially tighter than they used to be. It also doesn't seem likely there will be any changes to them.

Any suggestions? Physically blocking access seems like an obvious measure in this case. It doesn't solve the issue, but delaying attackers to allow for law enforcement to arrive would be a good thing by itself

Closing the premises would not really help much against attacks by insiders (like those two you linked) but stopping or delaying outsiders would be a good idea.


I can't give you suggestions because the list would be a thousand pages long based on a sliding scale of how safe you want to be and how many $$$ you have.

You know about the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania? You know about Khost, right? That's with things highly thought out and defended.

If you start thinking like a bad guy, you can come up with all sorts of things to get around your cement wall. People can be evil. That's really it.

Are you going to design this school building with doors to automatically open if a fire alarm is pulled? Otherwise, how would the fire department deal with fires? Hmm. Some would be assassin comes up with a molotov cocktail and throws it on the top of the building. NOW WHAT?

You realize you put a place in lockdown and it takes longer for ambulances to get thru? That can kill also (and I'm not talking about an active shooter situation). That wall is there forever, with all drawbacks of it, not just the benefits of it. Have you thought about the tradeoffs of one vs. another?

Or some evil person goes after school buses as dropoff and pickup takes place. Horrible situations no one would want to face. Now where's your cement wall? Are you going to protect students at bus stops?

It would drive ordinary people insane trying to step thru all those scenarios. Your budget would be entirely eaten up by security.

But I know determined people can be evil and group punishment for the sins of a few isn't going to work. It's a sick society and we don't have Minority Report (and thank God for that). It won't be solved on a forum.
#15230181
Rancid wrote:I've grown to really really hate my state's politicians since moving here.
I have a very bad impression of Texas and Texans. Prejudice hateful people who think they are hot shit because they have big hats and guns hanging all over them.
#15230182
Politics_Observer wrote:@wat0n @BlutoSays @Drlee @Rancid @Scamp @Saeko @snapdragon

What really pissed me off about those dumb hick rednecks who were conducting that news conference that O’Rourke interrupted was the fact that they would direct anger at O’Rourke while showing no emotion or anger about the reason why they were there in the first place, giving a fucking news conference. That they would express no anger or emotion at all about why they were there giving a news conference or the fact that 19 9, and 10-year-old kids were gunned down in cold blood, but would fucking express anger at O’Rourke. What kind of bullshit is that? That just gets me more pissed off thinking about it. That those fuckers would express anger at O’Rourke, but no anger about the 19 kids that were gunned down in cold blood.


I can't even relate to people on this forum.
#15230183
BlutoSays wrote:How much wall footage do you think has to be built to cover ten schools? Do realize the size of one school and surrounding land, ingress and egress roads, retrograding uneven terrain, drainage, removing concrete and other barriers already in existence, load bearing walls that need to be engineered and on and on and on?

You're going to do it for $10 a foot? You're off by at least a factor of fifteen.

Just the permitting, public commentary, urban planning and impact studies will cost you five million and spread that over multiple districts.

Wants walls for $10/foot labor and materials. :roll:

Surreal. Juuust surreal.


No. $10 is the square foot cost. The linear foot cost is $100.

And yes, all those other costs are additional.

Surreal. Must be a government worker given that amount of incompetence. Do you realize what raw concrete and materials and equipment rental costs?

Holy schit. :lol:

$75 million lowball price for what you're talking about. More realistic $125 million (and I'm leaning towards myself being wrong by a factor of three)

$400 million is more realistic, judging from the size of any school and land on four sides.


Exactly. The cost is unfeasible for a school board. Thank you for agreeing with my argument.

————————

wat0n wrote:@Pants-of-dog thanks. How much would a fence with anti-climbing and anti-ramming protections cost?

Honestly I still don't see why it couldn't be done using federal funding.


As @BlutoSays, the wall itself could easily cost as much as 15 times as expensive, and this is just for the supply and install of the wall, and does not also include permits, design, and other soft costs.
#15230184
@BlutoSays

BlutoSays wrote:I can't even relate to people on this forum.


Well, if you want to relate with most of the people on this particular forum, then it would help to develop something that I call empathy. It goes a long ways. And you know dumb hick rednecks love to talk this game about "common sense" but then they turn around and oppose common sense gun regulations that would save the lives of innocent kids going to school. They like to say "them educated, smart people need some common sense. They don't have any common sense" all while opposing and preventing common sense gun regulations to prevent the next mass shooting.
#15230185
I think I will just throw up my hands and not worry about it. I mean it is sad and all that but hey, I don't have any children and am not going to have any. Besides. I have guns and can protect myself if need be. Even at my age I am a deadly shot (lots of military training and continuous practice). As I am not stupid and go around with a gun in plain view, and some bad guy's last flash of consciousness will be to see I have one.

Just look at this thread. Outrage? Some. Furtive "oh shit" glances from the far right? You bet. The absurd notion that the only solution of keeping little children safe in the USA is to lock them up in a virtual prison?

15.4% of children who die in the US die from firearms. That is almost double the percentage who die of cancer. In 2020 guns were the leading cause of death in children and adolescents.

But what the fuck. I don't see much outrage. I don't see people taking to the streets. Not one soul on this board has written his elected representative and told them that he/she would not vote for them unless they introduce legislation to control guns.

So I think I will just ignore it. If nobody else cares why should I?

And NO you can't have my money to build some idiotic Berlin wall around our local schools. If the parents are worried and they won't go after the guns, let them circle the school all day until the little tykes get home. (And find daddies gun and blow their little brother away.)
#15230186
Despite the tragedy, Trump hailed the NRA in his speech at its convention in Houston and ended his remarks with his trademark clenched fists and “cha-cha-cha” dance move.

I was waiting to see/hear what Dick Head would do/say. Even though his clown show act is wearing thin .... he didn't disappoint.

Hey Fatso ...... how much NRA money have you banked?
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