Gunman kills 19 children in Texas school shooting - Page 16 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15230187
Drlee wrote:I think I will just throw up my hands and not worry about it. I mean it is sad and all that but hey, I don't have any children and am not going to have any. Besides. I have guns and can protect myself if need be. Even at my age I am a deadly shot (lots of military training and continuous practice). As I am not stupid and go around with a gun in plain view, and some bad guy's last flash of consciousness will be to see I have one.

Just look at this thread. Outrage? Some. Furtive "oh shit" glances from the far right? You bet. The absurd notion that the only solution of keeping little children safe in the USA is to lock them up in a virtual prison?

15.4% of children who die in the US die from firearms. That is almost double the percentage who die of cancer. In 2020 guns were the leading cause of death in children and adolescents.

But what the fuck. I don't see much outrage. I don't see people taking to the streets. Not one soul on this board has written his elected representative and told them that he/she would not vote for them unless they introduce legislation to control guns.

So I think I will just ignore it. If nobody else cares why should I?

And NO you can't have my money to build some idiotic Berlin wall around our local schools. If the parents are worried and they won't go after the guns, let them circle the school all day until the little tykes get home. (And find daddies gun and blow their little brother away.)


I vote all the time in every election. Local, state, and federal or national elections. I always vote. And it is never for a Republican asshole who believes in a bunch of crap that doesn't work. But? You got a lot of people who are bent on burning down the US government if their crazy idea of a president is not going to be allowed to get back into office. They are drunk on needing to hold on to power at any cost. @jimjam 's point. Donald Trump is allowed to continue on with his damage because he symbolizes what the USA is really about. It is not a democracy anymore. It is about POWER. Raw power and holding on to power. No matter what. And that is what they want to solidify. Forget about democracy. It is about POWER and holding on to it.

A bunch of people totally disillusioned with their own system. They should have stopped the decay a long time ago. They should have questioned why Blacks weren't allowed to vote and had Jim Crow laws. They should have realized that Native Americans weren't allowed to vote at all until the 1950s. They should have tried to figure out what is going on in their nation. They did not do what they should have done. So what happens when you never did what was necessary? The consequence is there always. That is life. You can't get away from consequences Drlee.

You fail to act when it is critical. Then the consequence will create the energy necessary to stop ignoring the problems that exist.

Get active. And vote and agitate. I do. And I am in MEXICO. I am not in the fifty states. I cast my first vote in 1984. In Puerto Rico for Puerto Rican local elections. Since the US ones were not allowed there. I kept voting all the way through the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s. Then the 2010s, and I will continue on through the 2020s. I will become a Mexican citizen and vote here too. For the Mexican elections. It will be my second country. My primary residence. I will have to pay taxes in both Mexico and the USA. Pay my taxes and vote. And be involved. I never voted for some Republican candidate ever. Why? Because I don't agree with them. It is that simple. Vote for who you agree with. (Not who you think has the best chance of winning). That is true democracy. Allowing people to vote based on their truest beliefs and ability to understand what reflects their innermost values. It should not be about following a huge crowd that has the most money for campaigning and the most powerful interests in society fueling their 'success'. True success should be about finding the truth for your mind. Not someone else's over-bloated political party that has almost zero backing from working ordinary people. The USA is full of people who vote for people they don't even like. They don't even read what the policies are and what the political philosophy they are backing is about. Find out what it is all about. Make decisions based on issues you care about. Get involved. CARE.

And you got solutions. Be apathetic and sit on your ass and never read about what is going on and what kind of political system you live under? You are FUCKED.

If you consciously choose to be a fascist, a communist, a socialist, an anarchist, a liberal, a monarchist, a whatever political stripe you call yourself? Do it from a position of informed awareness. Study the entire history of the nation or the ethnic group your family is from. Find out about the history of your part of the USA and how it was shaped. Educate yourself. Especially about history, social science, political science, current events, and world issues. Get involved.

Because apathy is going to kill you quicker than activism will. Guaranteed people! ;)
#15230191
BlutoSays wrote:I can't give you suggestions because the list would be a thousand pages long based on a sliding scale of how safe you want to be and how many $$$ you have.

You know about the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania? You know about Khost, right? That's with things highly thought out and defended.

If you start thinking like a bad guy, you can come up with all sorts of things to get around your cement wall. People can be evil. That's really it.

Are you going to design this school building with doors to automatically open if a fire alarm is pulled? Otherwise, how would the fire department deal with fires? Hmm. Some would be assassin comes up with a molotov cocktail and throws it on the top of the building. NOW WHAT?

You realize you put a place in lockdown and it takes longer for ambulances to get thru? That can kill also (and I'm not talking about an active shooter situation). That wall is there forever, with all drawbacks of it, not just the benefits of it. Have you thought about the tradeoffs of one vs. another?

Or some evil person goes after school buses as dropoff and pickup takes place. Horrible situations no one would want to face. Now where's your cement wall? Are you going to protect students at bus stops?

It would drive ordinary people insane trying to step thru all those scenarios. Your budget would be entirely eaten up by security.

But I know determined people can be evil and group punishment for the sins of a few isn't going to work. It's a sick society and we don't have Minority Report (and thank God for that). It won't be solved on a forum.


Honestly, most of the problems you mention can be addressed by just having someone open the door, the automatic opening could also work despite the molotov scenario. That's hardly impossible :eh:

Others like cost as mentioned by you and @Pants-of-dog (I'd like to have an actual budget to compare, but whatever) are more important, but what's the alternative here?

Gun control (even if everyone agreed) isn't going to be cheap either, it may not be feasible and it may not work (just like making it hard for external attackers to enter schools may delay yet not stop an attack, making it harder for them to get guns may delay yet also fail to stop the attack) - I don't see why would anyone assume an attacker may be so willing to crash a car into a wall or to climb it but suddenly would desist to buy a gun from an illegal dealer. Ironically, this would also necessitate a large law enforcement effort. And it's not clear everyone agrees.

Placing more security may also help but this attack shows it may also fail to deliver anyway.

Then we could just not do anything and accept things as they are. Because people like their guns, because people like having cops everywhere, because people don't like walls or barriers or simply not to spend any money. You know, it's the voters' decision (or fault), as in any democracy. But then, and this is for @Drlee, what happens in some jurisdictions where voters actually do vote for more strict gun control measures, and they are willing to devote significant resources to enforce them, yet they are still flooded with guns from elsewhere simply because it's both materially and legally impossible (Commerce Clause) to stop the flow?

Realistically speaking, we can hope to reduce the problem but it doesn't seem likely it'll stop anytime soon even if there's unanimity on how to do so (and there isn't). Gun control is not a bad thing, but it's not infallible either.
#15230204
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
UVALDE, TX—In the hours following a violent rampage in Texas in which a lone attacker killed at least 21 individuals and injured several others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said Idaho resident Kathy Miller, echoing sentiments expressed by tens of millions of individuals who reside in a nation where over half of the world’s deadliest mass shootings have occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence than those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this individual from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what they really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past eight years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prev ... 1848971668


@wat0n If there's bars on the windows, gates, and other such things, it IS imprisonment.
#15230208
That's not what it is, and you know it, @wat0n. If you've ever SEEN a gated community, then you'd know that the only thing it keeps out is cars.

Instead of addressing the real problem, you want gates and guards and buzzers and bullet proof vests for the kids. Schools aren't prisons, nor are they meant to be. :moron: :lol:
#15230211
I never mentioned vests :roll:

If anything buzzing in would probably reduce the need for guards. You know, being harder to get in and all. I did say that too.

And BTW plenty of gated communities have guards. Some probably have more security than what I'm thinking for a normal school.
#15230212
You talk about things that are UNNECESSARY because these schools are not in a country where school shootings are a daily occurrence. :knife: :knife: :knife:

Fuck logic and reason, eh? Spend tons of money(that they don't have) on prevention of an incident that will likely never happen, and which still won't prevent school shootings, if it does. USA has all these preventative measures and yet they didn't work, did they????

You didn't mention bullet proof vests, but they make as much sense as the rest of the shit you're talking about.
#15230214
What makes you believe limiting physical access to schools by strangers doesn't help?

Even stakeholders and experts mention that as a measure to take:

Every Town Research, AFT & NEA - Keeping our Schools Safe wrote:...

Implement Basic Security Upgrades

In 2017, as the sound of gunshots echoed across campus, school administrators at Rancho Tehama Elementary School in Rancho Tehama Reserve located in Tehama County, California, made a critical decision. They immediately put their campus on lockdown, ushering students and teachers inside, locking internal doors, and locking out anyone who would try to enter.79 As a shooter approached, crashing through an external gate, he was unable to access the school building. Frustrated, he gave up and left school grounds before ultimately being stopped by law enforcement.80

Physical security is a critical intervention point to keep guns out of schools. The most effective physical security measures—the ones that are agreed on by most experts—are access control measures that keep shooters out of schools in the first place. As a secondary measure, internal door locks, which enable teachers to lock doors from the inside, can work to deter active shooters who do achieve access, protecting students and allowing law enforcement time to neutralize any potential threat.

Of course, one of the biggest challenges with security upgrades is maintaining a welcoming school environment. Schools cannot become prisons. Everytown, AFT, and NEA endorse basic security measures universally recommended by school safety experts, like access control and internal door locks, while recommending that schools also consider other expert-endorsed security measures based on local conditions.

ACCESS CONTROL

In 2018, as the shooter arrived on the campus of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, several critical access control failures gave him easy access to the school. He was dropped off outside of a perimeter fence. This fence had a gate that was open and left unstaffed.81 The shooter took advantage of this and entered the school campus. As he entered Building 12, where the shooting happened, he exploited another critical safety failure, as the door was left unlocked and accessible to all.82 In fact, the Marjory Stoneman Douglas Public Safety Commission found that “The overall lack of uniform and mandated physical site security requirements resulted in voids that allowed [the shooter] initial access to MSDHS and is a system failure.”83

Most experts, including the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Commission and the Sandy Hook Advisory Commission, agree that access control should be a component of any school security plan.84 Preventing unauthorized access to schools through fencing, single access points, and by simply ensuring doors are locked can keep shooters out of schools. State legislatures should provide funding for access control measures for schools to make sure that would-be shooters cannot have easy access.

INTERIOR DOOR LOCKS

In the shootings at both Sandy Hook Elementary School and Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, teachers had to step outside of their classrooms while the shooting was underway in order to lock their doors. This exposed the educators and students to danger. Doors that were left unlocked were unsecured and vulnerable. That is why school safety experts, like the Sandy Hook Advisory Commission, agree that schools should make sure that classroom doors lock from the inside as well as the outside.85 Interior door locks can mean the difference between life and death in an active shooter situation. Everytown, AFT, and NEA recommend that all schools equip doors with interior door locks to help prevent shooters from gaining access to classrooms.

...


AFT and NEA are teacher unions. It seems even experts agree this should be a component, one that has nothing to do with gun laws and thus doesn't get into that debate.

The report also mentions plenty of other measures, of course including gun control but also including early warning systems in case a member of the educational community wants to shoot the place up.

And no, no one said schools should turn into prisons :roll:
#15230217
Godstud wrote:@wat0n You are STILL stupidly proposing solutions to problems that do not exist. That's not logical, nor is it reasonable.


I bet you wouldn't have home insurance against rare natural disasters if you weren't required by law, would you? Rare events are by definition "not a problem" :roll:
#15230219
In Edmonton, where I owned a house, I never had earthquake insurance. You have to ask for it, specifically, because it's not something you need to worry about.

You're a fool, who thinks we all should live in fear, because you worship Americans, who do.
#15230221
So you mean like we should have tsunami and hurricane insurance, because we're 4,000km inland? :roll:

That's about the mentality of your entire argument. Spend money and protect against things that aren't problems.

Don't you dare mention guns, though. :roll:
#15230222
Godstud wrote:So you mean like we should have tsunami and hurricane insurance, because we're 4,000km inland? :roll:

That's about the mentality of your entire argument. Spend money and protect against things that aren't problems.

Don't you dare mention guns, though. :roll:


Why do governments force you have car and home insurance?

Why do gated communities exist, even in Thailand?

Why do we keep our home doors locked?
#15230223
wat0n wrote:Why do governments force you have car and home insurance?
Because they are actually needed in the case of car insurance. Car accidents will happens to everyone who drives, but school shootings won't. The insurance is not just for theft but liability insurance.

When you have a house, you normally have a mortgage, so you don't OWN the house, outright. Once you own it outright, you can neglect paying insurance, if you so choose.

wat0n wrote:Why do gated communities exist, even in Thailand?
Haven't seen one in Thailand that would fit the actual definition of "gated"(meaning it had a gate, and maybe someone watching it).

wat0n wrote:Why do we keep our home doors locked?
"Our"? I do not lock the doors to my house. I do not need to. We often leave windows open, too, as do the neighbours, who often leave their keys in their scooters. Again, you are ascribing fears that you have, to ones you think we have. Your perceptions are skewed and you are projecting your fears upon people who are in a place where those fears are unwarranted, and not justified.

Here's a fun fact for you:
In Thailand when the parking lot is full, people park perpendicular to the cars in the stalls, They leave the doors unlocked and their car in neutral, so people can push it out of the way. This allows more cars to park there.

On market day I often have to push a car out of the way of my drive way, so I can get my car out.
#15230224
Godstud wrote:Because they are actually needed in the case of car insurance. Car accidents will happens to everyone who drives, but school shootings won't.

When you have a house, you normally have a mortgage, so you don't OWN the house, outright. Once you own it outright, you can neglect paying insurance, if so choose.


But the general advice is to keep paying for the insurance.

As for the car insurance, I'm fairly certain plenty of people would not voluntarily buy one regardless. Which is why it's mandatory.

Godstud wrote:Haven't seen one in Thailand that would fit the actual definition of "gated"(meaning it had a gate).


At least looking around, I was able to find this:

Security in a Moo Baan – Almost every moo baan is a gated community with several security guards manning the gate and denying access to anyone who doesn’t belong there. The security guards will walk or cycle around the moo baan several times an hour, so living with doors and windows open is often the norm.

Most moo baans are very safe but, like anywhere, you can occasionally be unlucky. So use some common sense and take the necessary precautions (decent locks, padlocks, not leaving your house with the front door open etc).


https://tastythailand.com/what-to-expec ... ng-choice/

It also seems these aren't driven by expats, since the landowners usually need to be Thai citizens.

Godstud wrote: I don't.


Really? :eh:

Maybe it's a cultural difference. Not between Canadians and Americans, but between Canadians and Latin Americans. I still remember I'd get yelled if I didn't lock the door as a kid, even when living in a safe community (which wasn't always the case).

I am actually surprised when I see how little security the average house has around here (Chicago, not the safest city ever). It's not just schools. But then, there are those who really prefer to go all the way and live in a gated community, which I personally don't like (too inconvenient, just lock the door and have a fence, plus I prefer to live in the city - granted, I also prefer living in an apartment).
#15230228
Godstud wrote:Canada

** Update **

Investigators have recovered a pellet gun from the scene where Toronto police shot and killed a man suspected of carrying a rifle, an incident that prompted five nearby schools to be placed under precautionary lockdowns.
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