Gunman kills 19 children in Texas school shooting - Page 18 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15230320
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

Please note that one of the case studies showed that a security fence was easily bypassed because a gate was left unstaffed.

And this ignores times when shooters shot through windows to unlock doors. Moreover, lock systems that are remotely controlled can be quite expensive while ones that are not are often eft unlocked leaving students and staff vulnerable.

Also note that your estimate is only slightly higher than mine. I took my fence length from satellite photos of the school.

And yes you are missing many things. One thing is grading, which is the slopes of the land and resulting water runoff, which needs to be accounted for. You and I are currently assuming a perfectly level and perfectly drained land that requires no intervention, which is an unreasonable assumption.

And again, maintenance costs.

And again, soft costs.


Fences have low maintenance costs though.

As for the costs, did you calculate the cost for all the schools in the district? Care to elaborate further on what's the linear length of the required fencing and how did you arrive to it? The higher estimate is clearly an upper end cost, for 10 schools that are far larger than any school in the Uvalde Consolidated School District.

No one said fences are infallible. Obviously not shutting the gate will allow a shooter in, but that doesn't mean fences would be useless. Just lock them if there's no reason to keep them open :roll:

And expert opinion agrees with me here, not you.
#15230323
Pants and @wat0n the issue are people who are in positions of power but won't do pragmatic gun bills to help deter in the future school shootings. While they continue to play politics? The gun nuts go on and continue to do stuff.

I don't live in the states. Here the issues are uninvestigated killing and raping and dumping bodies of innocent women and young women at that. They are taking to the streets and threaten the ones who don't act. It is going to get ugly. If nothing is done. They had a Netflix movie on that called 'Justicia para Maricela?" I don't recall the exact title. Most shootings in Mexico are about drug cartels. The cartels don't go for killing school kids at random. They kill mayors and so on officials that don't agree with them.

The FBI traced where the drug cartels in Mexico get their guns and ammo etc from. The answer? The USA. Lol. The USA ships it to the drug lords for profits. But the USA wants to say they have nothing to do with the drug cartels getting guns. They got custom built drug cartels. Trump wanted to bomb the cartels in Mexico via the sky without consulting the Mexican government first. It was crazy. Trump is an idiot. You don't go into a nation and bomb without asking about government stuff first. Imagine Mexico says, you got El Chapo in custody...let us bomb him in your air space so we can get justice?

Insane people. Stop having a bunch of drug addiction issues in your country folks. Pass legislation on mental health funding for teens and depressed people, and drug addiction programs proven to work. Higher wages for teachers and administrators that run schools with kids who are well educated and looked after. Get rid of racist cops. Fund school lunch and fun activities for cultural enrichment for the kids in the summertime so they can go and eat and not go hungry if they are poor and get a lot of enrichment regardless of income. Deal with positive solutions. Not a bunch of machismo bullshit that never worked in the long run.

My kid's school in Mexico:



They are a bilingual school and it is Spanish and English that they teach. They are based on Mayan culture. And they are into peace. That is a core value. They don't have officers with guns roaming the hallway folks. It is not a good thing to do.

They do have controlled access but it is about keeping the kids from being in the street where in the front part near the basketball court it is kind of dangerous with a busy street. Especially for younger children.

I am a demanding person with my sons. They have to speak both Spanish and English very very well. They have to try to hit a third foreign language well. They should learn about Mayan culture if they live in a Mayan-influenced city. Merida has enormous influence from Cuba. Havana in terms of culture. Not politics. You see Cuban culture in dancing, culture, literature, music, and people. I really love that school. It is small. He has a person that is really nice and teaches him one-on-one everything.

The world is very big and unless the US realizes that their kids are their most precious resource and not the gun lobbies like the NRA and the Republican foolish leaders who are all bought off hacks? They got problems. The whole world doesn't have alerts about school shooting drills. Yaxunah has never called me with alerts about nutty people shooting up the place. The other school in Denver did. Five times. Get a plan, folks.

#15230324
wat0n wrote: The higher estimate is clearly an upper end cost, for 10 schools that are far larger than any school in the Uvalde Consolidated School District.


I explained how I got my estimate. which was actually a little lower than yours.

No one said fences are infallible. Obviously not shutting the gate will allow a shooter in, but that doesn't mean fences would be useless. Just lock them if there's no reason to keep them open :roll:


Yes, and as we can see, the Chinese were correct that a wall is only as strong as the people staffing it.

And expert opinion agrees with me here, not you.


If you think anything posted by the experts contradicts anything I have said, please point it out.
#15230329
Pants-of-dog wrote:I explained how I got my estimate. which was actually a little lower than yours.


Yet those $6m are a gross overestimate.

Even then though the overall district's budget is $40m, so this would entail a 1-time increase of 15%.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, and as we can see, the Chinese were correct that a wall is only as strong as the people staffing it.


So...? It's all about making the likelihood of a successful attack lower.

Even gun control wouldn't solve the issue, it would only make mass shootings far less frequent.

Pants-of-dog wrote:If you think anything posted by the experts contradicts anything I have said, please point it out.


How about their recommendations to erect fences and single-entry points?
#15230332
wat0n wrote:Yet those $6m are a gross overestimate.

Even then though the overall district's budget is $40m, so this would entail a 1-time increase of 15%.


How is it a gross over estimate?

So...? It's all about making the likelihood of a successful attack lower.

Even gun control wouldn't solve the issue, it would only make mass shootings far less frequent.


So we should spend 15% of the yearly budget on something that might slow an attacker down if we staff the gates full time even though wr have less security guards.

How about their recommendations to erect fences and single-entry points?


What are their recommendations?
#15230334
Pants-of-dog wrote:How is it a gross over estimate?


Well, I simply took the recommended acreage of senior high schools with twice as much enrollment than any school in this district has, regardless of level. I also assumed this would be done using a high-end security fence, which may be unnecessary.

Pants-of-dog wrote:So we should spend 15% of the yearly budget on something that might slow an attacker down if we staff the gates full time even though wr have less security guards.


A single time, yes, and reduce spending on human security that will accrue over the years.

Also, visitors can be buzzed in. It's unnecessary to have a guard at the gate full time.

Pants-of-dog wrote:What are their recommendations?


I already mentioned them.
#15230337
wat0n wrote:Well, I simply took the recommended acreage of senior high schools with twice as much enrollment than any school in this district has, regardless of level. I also assumed this would be done using a high-end security fence, which may be unnecessary.


And I used the linear measurement around Robb Elementary.

My estimate is based on the actual amount, while yours is based on design criteria from another state for new builds.

A single time, yes, and reduce spending on human security that will accrue over the years.

Also, visitors can be buzzed in. It's unnecessary to have a guard at the gate full time.


I see.

So you would also be adding a security office, a video system, remote control access of all doors and gates, and the required electrical and other services.

I already mentioned them.


Please post a link to where you mentioned them.

How do they contradict what I have said?
#15230339
Pants-of-dog wrote:And I used the linear measurement around Robb Elementary.

My estimate is based on the actual amount, while yours is based on design criteria from another state for new builds.


Would you show your work?

52.7 acres is far, far more than the minimum acreage for an elementary school in Texas.

Pants-of-dog wrote:I see.

So you would also be adding a security office, a video system, remote control access of all doors and gates, and the required electrical and other services.


None of which is terribly pricey.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Please post a link to where you mentioned them.

How do they contradict what I have said?


Also did so. I've quoted it twice.

Is it really that hard to admit even teachers' unions seem to be requesting this type of measure?
#15230342
wat0n wrote:Would you show your work?

52.7 acres is far, far more than the minimum acreage for an elementary school in Texas.


I think Texas is like a lot of the Midwest: there is ample space, especially in small towns and rural areas.

None of which is terribly pricey.


That is subjective.

Also did so. I've quoted it twice.

Is it really that hard to admit even teachers' unions seem to be requesting this type of measure?


I can see why teachers unions support this measure.

I can also see why teachers unions would support gun control.

They would also support studying the problem, using science, and effectively applying resources to deal with this.

They would also probably like it if this did not dig itno their already overstretched budgets.

Is it hard to admit that your proposed policy is simply one of many possible options and we should look at all them and use the ones that seem most effective?
#15230349
Pants-of-dog wrote:I think Texas is like a lot of the Midwest: there is ample space, especially in small towns and rural areas.


My understanding is that if anything the planning standards have been shifting towards larger schools.

Pants-of-dog wrote:That is subjective.


How much would those systems cost for 10 single-entries?

Pants-of-dog wrote:I can see why teachers unions support this measure.

I can also see why teachers unions would support gun control.

They would also support studying the problem, using science, and effectively applying resources to deal with this.

They would also probably like it if this did not dig itno their already overstretched budgets.

Is it hard to admit that your proposed policy is simply one of many possible options and we should look at all them and use the ones that seem most effective?


Sure, and this one has probably the best chances of passing. Doesn't affect gun advocates, doesn't require reinventing the wheel, might actually save money in the long run. It also doesn't depend on figuring out the root causes of a social problem we have yet to fully understand.

Furthermore, the school shooting problem goes beyond the typical mass shooter. There are also gang and other crime related shootings for example.

The report if anything says that although mass shootings represent around a quarter of all gun deaths in schools, they amount to only 1% of all incidents. That is, they are very deadly but not the whole story, at all.

By the way, I'm not against gun control or scientific research. If anything, I like research. But I don't think we should just bank on these.
#15230351
Trump made a campaign speech at the NRA convention. (Where I might add, one is not allowed to carry a gun.) During his speech he referred to a rigged election as well. Same old shit.

The republicans know that by this time next week the outrage will be over and we will be worrying about rising rents anyway.
#15230353
Republicans care more about guns, than children. Americans follow suit. I pity the children who have parents in the USA who care so little for them.

Americans say guns are important to their freedoms, but we all know that's rubbish. This boils down American psychology and culture. It also boils down to USA having too many guns.

USA: 120 guns per 100 people.
Canada: 34.7 guns per 100 people(Still too many for a developed country, as far as I am concerned)
Thailand: 15 guns per 100 people.

Note: The chance of a Canadian, or Thai child, being killed in a school shooting is TWO THOUSAND times less than in the USA.

The solution isn't to make schools into expensive fortresses or prisons(instead of spending that money on their education). The solution is to address the root problem: Guns.
#15230366
wat0n wrote:My understanding is that if anything the planning standards have been shifting towards larger schools.


This is all theory. I simply took an actual measurement.

How much would those systems cost for 10 single-entries?

Sure, and this one has probably the best chances of passing. Doesn't affect gun advocates, doesn't require reinventing the wheel, might actually save money in the long run. It also doesn't depend on figuring out the root causes of a social problem we have yet to fully understand.

Furthermore, the school shooting problem goes beyond the typical mass shooter. There are also gang and other crime related shootings for example.

The report if anything says that although mass shootings represent around a quarter of all gun deaths in schools, they amount to only 1% of all incidents. That is, they are very deadly but not the whole story, at all.

By the way, I'm not against gun control or scientific research. If anything, I like research. But I don't think we should just bank on these.


Why are you so unwilling to address the root causes of gun violence and mass shootings?

Does it not even make you wonder why the USA has so many and developed countries have so few?
#15230368
As for "addressing the root causes of mass shootings", what would those be?


I think the biggest issue is the distrust in regulatory institutions making any meaningful regulation very hard to achieve. This is classic divide and conquer stuff. Something has destroyed such an important mechanism in government that the whole thing is paralyzed. It needs to be identified, acknowledged and very publicly corrected. While you’re at it, do the same with your medical regulatory institutions…
#15230371
wat0n wrote:fences

Bolt cutters?

A bolt cutter, sometimes called bolt cropper, is a tool used for cutting bolts, chains, padlocks, rebar, and wire mesh.

— Wikipedia
#15230372
wat0n wrote:@ness31 I agree. I think it's a cultural divide, not unlike this country has had before judging by its history.

I'm not sure about how to fix that, though.



Funny you should mention that, because one way would involve guns and the other would require the laying down of all weapons, literal and metaphorical :lol:

The latter shouldn’t be so hard if people actually spoke to each other like humans. Proper leadership, bipartisanship, a generally good IQ in public office…you know, all that basic stuff that progressed us up till this point which we’re now squandering over petty shit.

It’s solvable, it’s just a matter of all the pieces falling into place sooner rather than later :)
#15230381
@ingliz lol how long would it take to cut through a security fence?

ness31 wrote:Funny you should mention that, because one way would involve guns and the other would require the laying down of all weapons, literal and metaphorical :lol:

The latter shouldn’t be so hard if people actually spoke to each other like humans. Proper leadership, bipartisanship, a generally good IQ in public office…you know, all that basic stuff that progressed us up till this point which we’re now squandering over petty shit.

It’s solvable, it’s just a matter of all the pieces falling into place sooner rather than later :)


That would be good indeed, hopefully it will happen. What I was thinking about is that the cultural differences between the urban+suburban and rural areas in this country are rather large. Perhaps larger than in most Western countries.
#15230382
wat0n wrote:how long would it take to cut through a security fence?

Less than 4 minutes, if you have the right tools.

Regardless of how elaborate fences may be, they still offer only a modicum of security.

Note: With assistance and no tools, it takes less than 5 seconds to climb over a 7' barbed wire-topped fence.


:)


Source: Effective Physical Security by Lawrence J. Fennelly
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