Gunman kills 19 children in Texas school shooting - Page 19 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15230384
ingliz wrote:Less than 4 minutes, if you have the right tools.

Regardless of how elaborate fences may be, they still offer only a modicum of security.

Note: With assistance and no tools, it takes less than 5 seconds to climb over a 7' barbed wire-topped fence.


:)


Source: Effective Physical Security by Lawrence J. Fennelly


Well, assistance makes the attack harder to begin with. That stops looking like your average mass shooter and more like a terrorist attack.

Those 4 minutes could be key to delay the attacker. Yes, everything counts if students are to hide or flee.
#15230386
What I was thinking about is that the cultural differences between the urban+suburban and rural areas in this country are rather large. Perhaps larger than in most Western countries.


Different, sure. Country folk are always much less affected than city folk. With that comes a certain independence. Yeah, they’re not giving up their guns :lol: But do they have to? Are theses school shootings happening in rural areas?
#15230387
ness31 wrote:Different, sure. Country folk are always much less affected than city folk. With that comes a certain independence. Yeah, they’re not giving up their guns :lol: But do they have to? Are theses school shootings happening in rural areas?


It depends on what do you consider to be a "rural" area. Uvalde has like 25k inhabitants I think.

@Godstud good luck telling that to the people who don't want to give up their guns.

Honestly, I don't personally think there's anything wrong with liking guns per se either. Just wish they'd make sure the people who shouldn't have them didn't, but it doesn't seem to be possible anymore, or at least not anytime soon. Not with these many guns going around. IIRC 400 million and counting.

Bitching about how plenty of Americans don't want to give up their guns won't solve the problem either. Neither will to berate them for it.
#15230388
Yes, @ness31, a lot of these school shootings are happening in rural areas. Uvalde, Texas is a small town.


Why mass school shootings continue to happen in small towns
BAKERSFIELD, Calif. (KBAK/KBFX) — Tuesday, the nation was rocked again by another mass school shooting. While seemingly random, experts say these shootings typically have one thing in common: they mostly happen in small, rural towns.

Back in 2018, the Associated Press reported that of the 10 deadliest school shootings in the U.S., all but one happened in towns with fewer than 75,000 residents. Most of them were in cities with less than 50,000 people. Uvalde's population fits these criteria, sitting at 15,860.

https://bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/w ... mall-towns

To say it's a urban problem would be incorrect.


@wat0n Your response is typical American(Republican) response from someone who doesn't want to acknowledge that the guns are the problem. :knife: Good job being just another stupid American. You've achieved the American Dream.
#15230389
wat0n is correct, we need to come to some understanding of what a small rural town is. For me it would need to mean isolation, not a lot of services and conveniences…

And maybe there’s a little bit of a drug problem in some of these places :hmm:
#15230391
Godstud wrote:@wat0n Your response is typical American(Republican) response from someone who doesn't want to acknowledge that the guns are the problem. :knife: Good job being just another stupid American. You've achieved the American Dream.


Are you really so dimwitted to believe berating gun owners and calling them idiots will convince them to give them up or to at least support tighter regulations? How does that work?

ness31 wrote:wat0n is correct, we need to come to some understanding of what a small rural town is. For me it would need to mean isolation, not a lot of services and conveniences…

And maybe there’s a little bit of a drug problem in some of these places :hmm:


Well, it's unlikely a town of 15k or so will have plenty of services and conveniences. Furthermore, the school will also serve children who live out of town.

Honestly I've had the experience of the rural life and let's just say I prefer to live in big cities ever since.
#15230392
wat0n wrote:Well, it's unlikely a town of 15k or so will have plenty of services and conveniences. Furthermore, the school will also serve children who live out of town.

Honestly I've had the experience of the rural life and let's just say I prefer to live in big cities ever since.


So like one cafe or diner? No restaurants? No sporting clubs? No McDonalds? No investment from big companies?
#15230396
wat0n wrote:Are you really so dimwitted to believe berating gun owners and calling them idiots will convince them to give them up or to at least support tighter regulations? How does that work?
:lol: Seeing as you're a moron, and don't notice that they're already not doing anything to address the issue, me calling gun owners idiots won't change a damned thing.

The problem is with gun ownership, gun control, and access to guns. No one in USA wants to address this problem because their love of guns is more important than the lives of children. Other countries decided that sacrificing guns for the lives of people was more important that satisfying the fetishes of gun owners.

Sad facts, but facts they are.
#15230398
Godstud wrote:
The problem is with gun ownership, gun control, and access to guns. No one in USA wants to address this problem because their love of guns is more important than the lives of children. Other countries decided that sacrificing guns for the lives of people was more important that satisfying the fetishes of gun owners.



After a grisly mass murder like this, a supermajority that can go as high as 90% supports new gun regs.

New regs are no longer possible, notice that, and you wake up to the fact that the country is not just non-democratic, it's anti-democratic, and corrupt.

Look a little deeper, and you start seeing the connections between guns and race.
#15230415
wat0n wrote:@Pants-of-dog would you show how did you arrive to the figure?

As for "addressing the root causes of mass shootings", what would those be?


I already answered the first question, and if you want the answer to the second, please Google it.

There must be something cultural to it, since countries with similar histories and demographics do not have this problem,
#15230417
I am rapidly losing respect for the "fence builder" crowd.

Come on folks. Do you really think this matters? We could have cut the casualties of almost all mass shootings in the US by a ban on semi-automatic weapons and large capacity magazines. I get that it would take a very long time before these were not available but the problem with these shooters is not that they plan a long time but that they go off their skids, arm and shoot fast. Making assault weapons unavailable would deter these kids in another way. They are not likely to take on a school armed with a revolver or bolt action rifle. They would feel completely under armed. And they would be. If you look at the attack on Congresswoman Giffords, the death toll was lower because the gunman was jumped while he stopped to reload. Would there be as many kids dead in Texas if the shooter had a revolver or a rifle with a three round magazine?

The problem is guns. The solution is gun control. There is absolutely no doubt about this at all. A ban on all semiautomatic weapons, period. A person can easily protect himself with a revolver if he is foolish enough to think he needs that at all. There is no hunting that cannot be done with a bolt or lever action rifle containing three or fewer rounds. There is no house that is safer with an AR-15 than it would be with a shotgun. The only possible use of semiautomatic weaponry other than crime is to overthrow the government and that is what these Republican idiots are talking about in their living rooms.

They need to own this at the polls. This time the democrats need to go after assault weapons, large capacity magazines and women's rights. They won't and that is, perhaps, the saddest thing of all.
#15230422
Pants-of-dog wrote:
I already answered the first question, and if you want the answer to the second, please Google it.

There must be something cultural to it, since countries with similar histories and demographics do not have this problem




Southern culture, which has spread beyond the South, was built on terrorism.

It's still there.
#15230424
The only possible use of semiautomatic weaponry other than crime is to overthrow the government and that is what these Republican idiots are talking about in their living rooms.


Again? I thought that had already happened on January 6? Wow, I just can’t keep up :lol:
#15230425
Obviously, the solution is gun control but high security fences would help a lot, surely?

Mind you, British schools are usually surrounded by playing fields, or at least quite a large paved area. Coupled with security cameras they could go a long way to keeping out gunmen or anyone else, not if the doors open straight onto the street, of course. Pretty solid security doors would be needed .
#15230427
ness31 wrote:So like one cafe or diner? No restaurants? No sporting clubs? No McDonalds? No investment from big companies?


Basically

Godstud wrote::lol: Seeing as you're a moron, and don't notice that they're already not doing anything to address the issue, me calling gun owners idiots won't change a damned thing.

The problem is with gun ownership, gun control, and access to guns. No one in USA wants to address this problem because their love of guns is more important than the lives of children. Other countries decided that sacrificing guns for the lives of people was more important that satisfying the fetishes of gun owners.

Sad facts, but facts they are.


Yes, we know that, dimwit. So how do you get people who consider gun ownership a key right and even a passage to adulthood to just decide to give them up again? Is it even feasible? A buyback program would help, but unless astronomical amount of money was spent (and probably even if it was), it's unlikely you'll see gun owners just give up their guns.

I guess calling them heartless morons or terrorists will surely convince them, won't it?

Pants-of-dog wrote:I already answered the first question, and if you want the answer to the second, please Google it.


No, show how you did it.

Pants-of-dog wrote:There must be something cultural to it, since countries with similar histories and demographics do not have this problem,


And how do you change that culture? Thus far we've seen people calling them idiots and terrorists. How is that going to help exactly?

Drlee wrote:I am rapidly losing respect for the "fence builder" crowd.

Come on folks. Do you really think this matters? We could have cut the casualties of almost all mass shootings in the US by a ban on semi-automatic weapons and large capacity magazines. I get that it would take a very long time before these were not available but the problem with these shooters is not that they plan a long time but that they go off their skids, arm and shoot fast. Making assault weapons unavailable would deter these kids in another way. They are not likely to take on a school armed with a revolver or bolt action rifle. They would feel completely under armed. And they would be. If you look at the attack on Congresswoman Giffords, the death toll was lower because the gunman was jumped while he stopped to reload. Would there be as many kids dead in Texas if the shooter had a revolver or a rifle with a three round magazine?

The problem is guns. The solution is gun control. There is absolutely no doubt about this at all. A ban on all semiautomatic weapons, period. A person can easily protect himself with a revolver if he is foolish enough to think he needs that at all. There is no hunting that cannot be done with a bolt or lever action rifle containing three or fewer rounds. There is no house that is safer with an AR-15 than it would be with a shotgun. The only possible use of semiautomatic weaponry other than crime is to overthrow the government and that is what these Republican idiots are talking about in their living rooms.

They need to own this at the polls. This time the democrats need to go after assault weapons, large capacity magazines and women's rights. They won't and that is, perhaps, the saddest thing of all.


An automatic weapons ban would obviously help but both of us know this isn't going to happen. And it won't be passed for the same reasons federal legislation on abortion deciding that issue won't. No, not for constitutional reasons by the way, just that voters in several states would not support the measure.

Unlike using this option to legitimize keeping abortion legal in as many states as possible, I'd imagine here even putting the question directly to voters would fail to yield the bans in several states:

Image

Image

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... -and-guns/

And unlike abortion, what happens in the state doesn't stay in the state. Instead, there would be trafficking from states allowing automatic weapons into states banning them just like most the guns going on around where I live come from out of the state. That is, state regulation will fail to solve this issue, a ban that ever hopes to be effective must be done at the federal level (and even then we'd then to get to the implementation, which is a problem of its own as federal drug policy has shown).

So we make do with what we have, and that's background checks to limit access to guns to the mentally ill and criminals as much as materially feasible, which in no event will manage to get ALL guns out of the streets just like current drug policy isn't managing to keep ALL illegal drugs out of the streets, and physically restricting access to schools to people who aren't supposed to have it anyway.

Or we can just call Republicans living in rural areas morons and terrorists

Image

...surely that will convince them and solve everything, in the mind of the dimwitted Canadian Thai wannabe.
#15230431
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

Please explain how my estimate is flawed.


I don't know if it's flawed or not. I want to know how did you get to it.

How can I know if your estimate is flawed if I can't replicate it? Saying "I used satellital images" is vague. Where did you find them to begin with?

Pants-of-dog wrote:Also, please explain why it makes no sense to study and address the root causes of mass shootings and school shootings. Thanks.


As I said, you can do that all you want, I just wouldn't bank all policy on it. We don't even know if it's possible to know for sure. So, sure, fund research to figure this out, but as long as researchers don't arrive to a consensus we must act keeping our profound ignorance in mind.

Why would it make no sense to buff school security when even experts and stakeholders are requesting it?
#15230432
wat0n wrote:I don't know if it's flawed or not. I want to know how did you get to it.

How can I know if your estimate is flawed if I can't replicate it? Saying "I used satellital images" is vague. Where did you find them to begin with?


There is a search engine called Google.

It comes with things like Google maps and Google Earth.

As I said, you can do that all you want, I just wouldn't bank all policy on it. We don't even know if it's possible to know for sure. So, sure, fund research to figure this out, but as long as researchers don't arrive to a consensus we must act keeping our profound ignorance in mind.


How do you know that “we don't even know if it's possible to know for sure”?

Why would it make no sense to buff school security when even experts and stakeholders are requesting it?


This is a leading question. It also betrays the fact that you are not reading my posts properly since this is also a strawman.

I thunk I will simply ignore these from now on.
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