Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 305 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By B0ycey
#15235092
Rugoz wrote:A peaceful resolution stands at the end of every conflict. Talks are fine, and of course they happen. But notice how Putin never talked with Zelensky, even though the latter asked for it multiple times.


I don't care whether you want to trust Russia or not but the only way to find out is by talking. If it was Putin and not Zelensky who weltched on what was might have been as the "Istanbul agreement" or it was Russia not Ukraine that didn't implement the Minsk agreement I may even be as skeptical as you. The truth is it does seem like Russia are pushing for talks more than Ukraine despite being on the offensive and until talks resume we cannot possibly know whether they can succeed or not.

As for Zelensky meeting Putin, actually he could have. Russia wanted a framework to begin face to face negotiations so the meeting would have been finalising the finishing touches, the talks were pretty much there and then when Russia rolled back Zelensky had the warcrimes bollocks idea and he then rolled back on givung up on NATO membership given he thought he had the upperhand. That seems to have been a mistake. How much more land does Zelensky want to lose before he is forced back to the negotiation table I wonder? But the longer the conflict the weaker his hand.
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By Beren
#15235094
Rancid wrote:I know no one gives a shit about the UN, but what about this hypothetical situation. Under the UN, this would be illegal since it's land taken without consent, but under threat (for example, a contract you sign with a gun pointed to your head is considered invalid). Basically, forcing Ukraine to concede land under duress is illegal. If this were to happen anyway, does the UN basically just accept it as the new normal? Let's go 10-20-30 years into the future now. If Ukraine starts invading the Donbas to take it back as some sort of historical grievance about what happened in 2022 now be considered an illegal war by the UN?

If both Ukraine and Russia plus the rest of the world approved of a peace deal according to which the Donbas (as well as Crimea) belongs to Russia, then it'd be considered illegal, I guess.
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By Beren
#15235095
JohnRawls wrote:Ukraine doesn't want to negotiate so peace is not an option for now.

As for Severodonetsk being taken or being surrendered is redundant discussion.

You see it in that way because you only see what's happening right before your eyes.
#15235096
B0ycey wrote:I don't care whether you want to trust Russia or not but the only way to find out is by talking. If it was Putin and not Zelensky who weltched on what was might have been as the "Istanbul agreement" or it was Russia not Ukraine that didn't implement the Minsk agreement I may even be as skeptical as you. The truth is it does seem like Russia are pushing for talks more than Ukraine despite being on the offensive and until talks resume we cannot possibly know whether they can succeed or not.

As for Zelensky meeting Putin, actually he could have. Russia wanted a framework to begin face to face negotiations so the meeting would have been finalising the finishing touches, the talks were pretty much there and then when Russia rolled back Zelensky had the warcrimes bollocks idea and he then rolled back on givung up on NATO membership given he thought he had the upperhand. That seems to have been a mistake. How much more land does Zelensky want to lose before he is forced back to the negotiation table I wonder? But the longer the conflict the weaker his hand.


I see no evidence that Russia is willing to negotiate in good faith. Russia doesn't even respect Ukraine's right to exist. Lavrov is a pathological liar. He says something different every day. It's all a ruse, aimed a seeding dissent in the West. Macron has talked to Putin for hours and nothing came out of it.

Generally, you don't seem to understand how this works. Again, Russia won't settle for anything less than it can achieve through military means. If Russia thinks its military can take and pacify Odessa, it will demand Odessa in any settlement.
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By Beren
#15235098
Rugoz wrote:Again, Russia won't settle for anything less than it can achieve through military means. If Russia thinks its military can take and pacify Odessa, it will demand Odessa in any settlement.

And what do you think Russia can take and pacify?
By B0ycey
#15235099
Rugoz wrote:I see no evidence that Russia is willing to negotiate in good faith. Russia doesn't even respect Ukraine's right to exist. Lavrov is a pathological liar. He says something different every day. It's all a ruse, aimed a seeding dissent in the West. Macron has talked to Putin for hours and nothing came out of it.

Generally, you don't seem to understand how this works. Again, Russia won't settle for anything less than it can achieve through military means. If Russia thinks its military can take and pacify Odessa, it will demand Odessa in any settlement.


...and perhaps that is why peace talks are off right now. Nobody trusts anyone. Of course this is ignoring that peace talks were pretty much there a few months back. Now I would say Russia will demand exactly what there territory gain is worth. But whatever. One days talks will be back on and then we will know what Russia will agree to or not won't we.
#15235105
B0ycey wrote:Now I would say Russia will demand exactly what there territory gain is worth.


The idea that Russia would have demanded LESS before is just a pure nonsensical fabrication of yours.
#15235106
B0ycey wrote:Nobody trusts anyone.


By the way, your attempt to depict both sides as equally untrustworthy is fucking annoying.

Putin can say Ukrainian EU membership is not a problem on one day and the next day Lavrov says the EU is an "aggressive, militant, NATO appendage".

Everything coming out of the Kremlin is aimed at deception.
#15235107
Rugoz wrote:I see no evidence that Russia is willing to negotiate in good faith. Russia doesn't even respect Ukraine's right to exist. Lavrov is a pathological liar. He says something different every day. It's all a ruse, aimed a seeding dissent in the West. Macron has talked to Putin for hours and nothing came out of it.

Generally, you don't seem to understand how this works. Again, Russia won't settle for anything less than it can achieve through military means. If Russia thinks its military can take and pacify Odessa, it will demand Odessa in any settlement.

“Everyone imposes his own system as far as his armies can reach.” - Josef Stalin.
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By Beren
#15235109
Potemkin wrote:“Everyone imposes his own system as far as his armies can reach.” - Josef Stalin.

As a matter of fact that kind of people are the easiest to deal and negotiate with.
By late
#15235110
Beren wrote:
As a matter of fact that kind of people are the easiest to deal and negotiate with.



Unless, of course, you don't want to give up even more of your country.

In that case, you get mass murder.
User avatar
By Beren
#15235113
late wrote:Unless, of course, you don't want to give up even more of your country.

In that case, you get mass murder.

Stalin was so reliable that even FDR appreciated him for it.

Image
User avatar
By Beren
#15235120
late wrote:Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what that might be.

My point is that regardless of what Putin, or especially Lavrov, says the Russians can and should be negotiated with, I doubt they'd be worse than Stalin was. Now let's see your point.
#15235123
Beren wrote:
My point is that regardless of what Putin, or especially Lavrov, says the Russians can and should be negotiated with, I doubt they'd be worse than Stalin was. Now let's see your point.



Putin isn't going to negotiate in good faith.

Unless we support Ukraine enough to drive them out, Putin will have conquered another part of Ukraine, and he'll come back for more.
#15235127
Rugoz wrote:Everything coming out of the Kremlin is aimed at deception.


Indeed. Putin comes from the KGB after all.

late wrote:Putin isn't going to negotiate in good faith.

Unless we support Ukraine enough to drive them out, Putin will have conquered another part of Ukraine, and he'll come back for more.


Agree, appeasement doesn't work. ANy sort of negotiated settlement, simply delays more and bigger conflict.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15235129
As for the "we must negotiate and carve up Ukraine crowd"

One key thing you are missing is that the Ukrainian people do not want to give up anything. Why do you appeasers seek to deny what the Ukrainian people themselves want? Which is Russia 100% out? Why do you want to speak for them, and force them to take something they don't want? Why is that position right to you? It's quite imperialistic, really.
#15235131
late wrote:Putin isn't going to negotiate in good faith.

Unless we support Ukraine enough to drive them out, Putin will have conquered another part of Ukraine, and he'll come back for more.

But even Stalin didn't do that, although he was a mass murderer and expansionist orders of magnitude worse than Putin is and he wasn't driven out of Eastern Europe as well. You should actually argue if how Putin's worse than Stalin was. However, the problem is that what if the Russians can't be driven out of Ukraine as it appears to be the case, simply because they can deploy too much firepower, for example. Would you fight them until the last Ukrainian then?

Rancid wrote:As for the "we must negotiate and carve up Ukraine crowd"

One key thing you are missing is that the Ukrainian people do not want to give up anything. Why do you appeasers seek to deny what the Ukrainian people themselves want? Which is Russia 100% out? Why do you want to speak for them, and force them to take something they don't want? Why is that position right to you? It's quite imperialistic, really.

Well, if you're right and the Ukrainian people insist on being a war-torn country and getting devastated so much indeed, then there won't be peace and you non-appeasers can be happy.
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