Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 306 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15235137
Beren wrote:
But even Stalin didn't do that, although he was a mass murderer and expansionist orders of magnitude worse than Putin is and he wasn't driven out of Eastern Europe as well. You should actually argue if how Putin's worse than Stalin was. However, the problem is that what if the Russians can't be driven out of Ukraine as it appears to be the case, simply because they can deploy too much firepower, for example. Would you fight them until the last Ukrainian then?




Stalin has no relevance.

We can, and should, be helping Ukraine a lot more. There is no excuse for ammo shortages. We have megatons of old weapons they could be using, like the A10. It's easy to fly, it's tough, and it would be quite effective against Russian tanks.
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By Beren
#15235140
late wrote:Stalin has no relevance.

Why did you respond to my post about him then like he does?

late wrote:We can, and should, be helping Ukraine a lot more. There is no excuse for ammo shortages. We have megatons of old weapons they could be using, like the A10. It's easy to fly, it's tough, and it would be quite effective against Russian tanks.

So you would fight them until the last Ukrainian indeed.
Last edited by Beren on 25 Jun 2022 15:04, edited 1 time in total.
#15235141
Appeasement would suggest getting nothing in return. But I do wonder if the idea is to push Russia back is even possible given the Donbass where the fighting is occurring is actually a civil war, and most of the fighting is Ukrainians against Ukrainians. My opinion on the matter is that there is no such thing as appeasement given it is a civil conflict. At some point Zelensky will have to negotiate and his bargain power is stronger now that it will be in a years time. He can fight indefinitely I guess put he won't be able to join NATO with a border dispute and of course the EU won't approve their membership and the country will become wasteland. My solution isn't even concessions of territory but merely what was agreed under the Minsk agreement. Whatever you might think of the rebels of DPM or the LPM, they are Ukrainians and their rights should be respected and if powersharing was put on the table it might at least bring talks back on the table. I remember a time when the British was never going to talk to the IRA and Gerry Adams was given a Yorkshire voice. Now Sinn Fein hold the most seats in Stormont and Brexit was all about keeping the Good Friday Agreement.
By late
#15235144
Beren wrote:
Why did you respond to my post about him then like he does?


So you would fight them until the last Ukrainian indeed.



I wanted to know what you were banging on about. It didn't make sense at the time, and then when you told me, it still didn't make sense.

That should be up to Ukraine, it's fighting for it's existence.
#15235148
Beren wrote:Well, if you're right and the Ukrainian people insist on being a war-torn country and getting devastated so much indeed, then there won't be peace and you non-appeasers can be happy.


Everyone wants peace. The assumption that it can be achieved by giving Russia what it wants is flawed though.

Putin has made himself clear. He thinks himself as peter the great. He thinks himself as restoring the great Russian empire.Why would he stop at a chunk of Ukraine?
#15235152
B0ycey wrote:Whatever you might think of the rebels of DPM or the LPM, they are Ukrainians

They're actually Russians, which is the point here. When the Russians ask for the Donbas, and Crimea, they actually ask for something Russian. However, when they ask for the whole of Ukraine, then they ask for something un-Russian. That's what should be understood here. So if Ukraine decides to turn its back on Russia and join the West institutionally, then they are legitimately asked to leave their Russian things (land, people, etc.) behind.

late wrote:I wanted to know what you were banging on about. It didn't make sense at the time, and then when you told me, it still didn't make sense.

If you wanted to know anything, why didn't you ask something rather than pretending to say something relevant and then being a pretentious dickface as an argument?

late wrote:That should be up to Ukraine, it's fighting for it's existence.

It's up to Ukraine, of course, I just wonder if what you'd suggest them do. As a matter of fact you've already done that.

Rancid wrote:Everyone wants peace. The assumption that it can be achieved by giving Russia what it wants is flawed though.

In my opinion many people want Russia utterly defeated rather than peace, even if it's apparently impossible for Ukraine to achieve.

Rancid wrote:Putin has made himself clear. He thinks himself as peter the great. He thinks himself as restoring the great Russian empire.Why would he stop at a chunk of Ukraine?

So that's what you think Russia still wants just because Putin said some bullshit like that, although he actually had to realise it's practically impossible.
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By Rancid
#15235156
Beren wrote: So that's what you think Russia still wants just because Putin said some bullshit like that, although he actually had to realise it's practically impossible.


I don't think its impossible. As Igor say's, he will do it in bite sized pieces over years.
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By Beren
#15235161
Rancid wrote:I don't think its impossible. As Igor say's, he will do it in bite sized pieces over years.

Sure, it must be right because Igor says so. :lol:

However, Ukraine should be careful and prepared for anything indeed even if Putin's willing to let them go for now.
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By Rancid
#15235170
Beren wrote:Sure, it must be right because Igor says so. :lol:

However, Ukraine should be careful and prepared for anything indeed even if Putin's willing to let them go for now.


Maybe joining NATO would help in that end.
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By Beren
#15235173
Rancid wrote:Maybe joining NATO would help in that end.

Or maybe it would trigger a total war between Russia and Ukraine, which couldn't end well for Ukraine. However, Ukraine's NATO-membership shouldn't be the ultimate goal here, its EU-membership should, in order to prevent Ukraine from ever being part of the Eurasian Economic Union. Ukraine still could make military alliances anyway.
#15235178
Some big news;

Belarus to get tactical nuclear charges for its SU-25 squadrons. It will also receive Iskander-M complex in large number - Putin

Today Russia launched 60 cruise missiles from belarus into ukraine. Lukashenko has asked Putin to mirror nato and send nuclear armed bombers on patrols along polish border. Lukashenko has told putin lithuania has declared war on russia and belarus with its blockade of kaliningrad.
#15235180
Igor Antunov wrote:Some big news;

Belarus to get tactical nuclear charges for its SU-25 squadrons. It will also receive Iskander-M complex in large number - Putin

Today Russia launched 60 cruise missiles from belarus into ukraine. Lukashenko has asked Putin to mirror nato and send nuclear armed bombers on patrols along polish border. Lukashenko has told putin lithuania has declared war on russia and belarus with its blockade of kaliningrad.

We're all aware that Belarus is de facto part of Russia, so you can spare us the bullshit and only report us on what Putin plans to deploy in Belarus.
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By Rancid
#15235193
Beren wrote:Or maybe it would trigger a total war between Russia and Ukraine, which couldn't end well for Ukraine. However, Ukraine's NATO-membership shouldn't be the ultimate goal here, its EU-membership should, in order to prevent Ukraine from ever being part of the Eurasian Economic Union. Ukraine still could make military alliances anyway.


Maybe, but so be it.

With regards to this idea that Putin can be negotiated with (against Ukraines wishes) because Putin isn't seriously going to try re-establishing the Russian empire. I think of something Maya Angelou stated which is, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. Apparently, you are choosing to still not believe Putin.
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By Beren
#15235195
Igor Antunov wrote:Crimea river you donbas. ;)

Wow, you finally contributed something. :lol:

Rancid wrote:Maybe, but so be it.

With regards to this idea that Putin can be negotiated with (against Ukraines wishes) because Putin isn't seriously going to try re-establishing the Russian empire. I think of something Maya Angelou stated which is, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. Apparently, you are choosing to still not believe Putin.

Well, if you're just a Russia- and Putin-hater, then that's it.
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By Rancid
#15235196
Beren wrote:Well, if you're just a Russia- and Putin-hater, then that's it.


No, that's not all it. Ukraine simply doesn't want to be subject to Putin's imperialism. That is the point here, and it shouldn't be up to anyone but Ukraine to be willing to give up territory. Right now, they don't want that, and the west shouldn't be pushing them to do so, since it's not what they want.

Pushing Ukraine to take a deal it doesn't want, is just as imperialistic as what Putin is doing.
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By Beren
#15235197
Rancid wrote:No, that's not all it. Ukraine simply doesn't want to be subject to Putin's imperialism. That is the point here, and it shouldn't be up to anyone but Ukraine to be willing to give up territory. Right now, they don't want that, and the west shouldn't be pushing them to do so, since it's not what they want.

Pushing Ukraine to take a deal it doesn't want, is just as imperialistic as what Putin is doing.

Sure, let Ukraine do whatever they want to and let's see if how much support they get for it. Or do you mean that Zelensky just should get whatever he asks for? It should be the tail wagging the dog perhaps? :lol:
#15235200
Beren wrote:Sure, let Ukraine do whatever they want to and let's see if how much support they get for it. Or do you mean that Zelensky just should get whatever he asks for? It should be the tail wagging the dog perhaps? :lol:


Zelensky is at the mercy of his own people who overwhelming support (80%+ last time polled) continuing the fight.

As for the rest of us, we should support them as much as we are willing to support them. Personally, I think yes, we should give them everything they ask for. I'd go as far as deploying NATO troops (if Ukraine asked for it), but that's not going to happen of course.

Appeasement basically results in a half measured peace, which is what so many of you are calling for. It's not a lasting/permanent solution.
#15235202
Rancid wrote:I'd go as far as deploying NATO troops (if Ukraine asked for it), but that's not going to happen of course.


Are you prepared to risk nuclear war? Because this is what such a decision would lead to.

Sounds very silly to me.
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By Beren
#15235204
Rancid wrote:Appeasement basically results in a half measured peace, which is what so many of you are calling for. It's not a lasting/permanent solution.

What appeasement? Your half-measured peace actually means compromise, which you seem to consider unfair to Ukraine by definition, just because they allegedly don't want it. The only lasting/permanent solution you strive for so much would be the dissolution of Russia, because as long as Russia exists it'll be a potential threat to Ukraine anyway.
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