Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 307 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Rancid
#15235205
Political Interest wrote:Are you prepared to risk nuclear war? Because this is what such a decision would lead to.


Yes. THis is not a new statement, I've stated this before already.

Beren wrote:What appeasement? Your half-measured peace actually means compromise, which you seem to consider unfair to Ukraine by definition


It is unfair to them.

Beren wrote:just because they allegedly don't want it.

It's not alleged. It's true.

Beren wrote:The only lasting/permanent solution you strive for so much would be the dissolution of Russia, because as long as Russia exists it'll be a potential threat to Ukraine anyway.

I don't believe that is necessary.
#15235207
Rancid wrote:Yes. THis is not a new statement, I've stated this before already.


Why are you prepared to entertain this risk?

Do you not think there is a lot at stake?

People talked this way during the Cuban Missile Crisis and the invasion of Cuba nearly happened.
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By Beren
#15235208
Rancid wrote:It is unfair to them.

How would it be unfair to them if they should give up the Donbas? It shouldn't be theirs in the first place.

Rancid wrote:It's not alleged. It's true.

Or at least that's what pollsters say.

Rancid wrote:I don't believe that is necessary.

Although that could be a final solution to the problem if you're so much worried about Ukraine.
#15235214
Rancid wrote:why's that?

Because it's Russian, a historically Russian territory dwelled by Russians. Is it really so hard to get? It's part of Ukraine only due to some historic accident but it's actually Russian. And if Ukraine means to completely separate from Russia and join Western institutions, then they have to give it up. That's just how things are in Eastern Europe.
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By Rancid
#15235216
Beren wrote:Because it's Russian, a historically Russian territory dwelled by Russians. Is it really so hard to get? It's part of Ukraine only due to some historic accident but it's actually Russian. And if Ukraine means to completely separate from Russia and join Western institutions, then they have to give it up. That's just how things are in Eastern Europe.


Historically always depends on how far back you arbitrarily decide to go of course (Crimea wasn't historically Russian for example). With all of this happening at the barrel of a gun, and external meddling by Russia in the region, as well as the aggressor unwilling to stop, it's hard to know what the people really want or care for.

In any case, why are you so sure Putin would stop there when he clearly has announced his intentions he wouldn't? This isn't really just about the Donbas after all.
#15235220
Rancid wrote:Historically always depends on how far back you arbitrarily decide to go of course (Crimea wasn't historically Russian for example). With all of this happening at the barrel of a gun, and external meddling by Russia in the region, as well as the aggressor unwilling to stop, it's hard to know what the people really want or care for.

In any case, why are you so sure Putin would stop there when he clearly has announced his intentions he wouldn't? This isn't really just about the Donbas after all.

Turkey has no official claim for Crimea. It is Russian now.
By Rugoz
#15235227
After this war Ukraine must join NATO or a similar security arrangement. Everything else is unacceptable.

Beren wrote:Because it's Russian, a historically Russian territory dwelled by Russians. Is it really so hard to get? It's part of Ukraine only due to some historic accident but it's actually Russian. And if Ukraine means to completely separate from Russia and join Western institutions, then they have to give it up. That's just how things are in Eastern Europe.


Jeez, piss off.
#15235236
Rancid wrote:Historically always depends on how far back you arbitrarily decide to go of course (Crimea wasn't historically Russian for example). With all of this happening at the barrel of a gun, and external meddling by Russia in the region, as well as the aggressor unwilling to stop, it's hard to know what the people really want or care for.

I'm sure that both Crimea and the Donbas are considered Russian by the Ukrainians themselves too, however, the Russians made a big mistake when they launched a full-fledged invasion on the whole of Ukraine. If they had only attacked the Donbas, Ukrainians wouldn't have resisted them so fiercely, they did so only because the whole of Ukraine was attacked and their whole national existence appeared to be in danger.

Rancid wrote:In any case, why are you so sure Putin would stop there when he clearly has announced his intentions he wouldn't? This isn't really just about the Donbas after all.

Because he clearly can't go further realistically. He should mobilise the whole of Russia to do so, which he's apparently unwilling to do.
By Rugoz
#15235241
wat0n wrote:I agree with @Beren, Putin wants to keep pro-Russian regions in Ukraine to influence the national government. It would be smarter to just let them go.


Wow, what horseshit propaganda have you people been exposed to. There are no pro-Russian regions left after 2014.

:knife:
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By Rancid
#15235242
Beren wrote:I'm sure that both Crimea and the Donbas are considered Russian by the Ukrainians themselves too, however, the Russians made a big mistake when they launched a full-fledged invasion on the whole of Ukraine. If they had only attacked the Donbas, Ukrainians wouldn't have resisted them so fiercely, they did so only because the whole of Ukraine was attacked and their whole national existence appeared to be in danger.


Agree (pretty sure I stated this weeks ago too). It would have been easier for him had he focused initially on Donbas. Especially given that the west was already accepting (as in, the west came to terms with it, not that they actually liked it) of this and reluctant to help Ukraine fearing they would fold like afganistan. It wasn't until the west saw the stiff resistance did they realize "oh wait... maybe we should help."

Beren wrote:Because he clearly can't go further realistically. He should mobilise the whole of Russia to do so, which he's apparently unwilling to do.


I don't know man, as much of a troll Igor is, he has a point that Russia has massive resources to throw were it wants. It's not just about resources for war, but for meddling and influence on Ukraine.

wat0n wrote:I agree with @Beren, Putin wants to keep pro-Russian regions in Ukraine to influence the national government. It would be smarter to just let them go.


Could this not be a base of operations to further erode and subvert the Ukrainian government? Then later simply Belrusafy it? Again, a negotiated peace in this form won't hold in the long term. Unless you simply do not give a shit about Ukrainian sovereignty. If the goal is to stop a hot war, sure, this would work, but it also seals that Ukraine will eventually dissolve and disappear as a sovereign entity. Yet again, fall under the thumb of an empire. This is why Poland and the Baltics are so vocal in helping Ukraine. They know how this will go. Igor knows it too, he's just on the other side of it.
By wat0n
#15235244
Rugoz wrote:Wow, what horseshit propaganda have you people been exposed to. There are no pro-Russian regions left after 2014.

:knife:


You said it yourself, after 2014. Guess what regions has Putin wanted to remain in Ukraine.

Rancid wrote:Could this not be a base of operations to further erode and subvert the Ukrainian government? Then later simply Belrusafy it? Again, a negotiated peace in this form won't hold in the long term. Unless you simply do not give a shit about Ukrainian sovereignty. If the goal is to stop a hot war, sure, this would work, but it also seals that Ukraine will eventually dissolve and disappear as a sovereign entity. Yet again, fall under the thumb of an empire. This is why Poland and the Baltics are so vocal in helping Ukraine. They know how this will go. Igor knows it too, he's just on the other side of it.


Yes, that's why Putin wants to take the Donbass and then shove it up Ukraine's ass as a Russian puppet. It's why it makes sense for Ukraine to give it up.

Anyway, it seems Russia - after a bloodbath - is slowly managing to take the Severodonetsk Lysychansk areas. Did anyone say war of attrition? Who said Russia could be getting stuck into the Ukrainian mud?



Let's not forget the big picture: Putin is desperate to show at least some achievement to the Russian public, because the war (sorry, "special operation") has largely been a failure.
#15235246
Stop this shit already.

There's zero evidence that any of the regions controlled by Ukraine at the start of the 2022 war has a majority or even a sizable minority of people wanting to secede from Ukraine.

If Ukraine has to cede territory, it will lead to large displacements of people and loss of property. Let's not forget that.
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By Rancid
#15235249
wat0n wrote:Yes, that's why Putin wants to take the Donbass and then shove it up Ukraine's ass as a Russian puppet. It's why it makes sense for Ukraine to give it up.


Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying here. Are you saying that you think Ukraine should give up the Donbas, so that Russia can then use it to fuck over Ukraine further? So you are pro-imperialism?
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By Beren
#15235250
Rancid wrote:I don't know man, as much of a troll Igor is, he has a point that Russia has massive resources to throw were it wants. It's not just about resources for war, but for meddling and influence on Ukraine.

They'll do a whole lot to undermine Ukraine's joining the EU, but not by military means if this issue gets settled. And even if Ukraine finally joins the EU, which is a big if and it won't happen in the foreseeable future anyway, they still will have a significant leverage on it. The big deal with the Russians consenting to Ukraine's EU candidate status is that they had to give up on involving Ukraine in the Eurasian Economic Union.
#15235252
Rugoz wrote:What? Putin "declared" them independent. :eh:


And he can "undeclare" them too.

As for the areas Putin hasn't taken yet, as of now they've been largely depopulated. The displacement you are referring to has already taken place for the most part.

IIRC Severodonetsk had a pre-war population of 100k, a few weeks ago it had a population of 15k.

Rancid wrote:Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying here. Are you saying that you think Ukraine should give up the Donbas, so that Russia can then use it to fuck over Ukraine further? So you are pro-imperialism?


No, Ukraine should give up the Donbass because of its pro-Russian population.

Putin may say "okay, you can keep the Donbass as long as it's autonomous and can participate in the central government". That won't make it less of a Russian puppet.

That's also why Putin hadn't wanted to recognize them as independent republics before he launched the invasion.

If the people in the Donbass want to be Russian, let them be. Ukraine has a good chance to become more stable and functional in the long run as a result.
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By Beren
#15235253
The Ukrainian army seem to have already tried out their new toys. It's amazing if the Americans really were able to deliver them, adjust them to the needs of the Ukrainians and train them to properly use them in combat in three weeks.

By Rugoz
#15235257
wat0n wrote:And he can "undeclare" them too.

As for the areas Putin hasn't taken yet, as of now they've been largely depopulated. The displacement you are referring to has already taken place for the most part.

IIRC Severodonetsk had a pre-war population of 100k, a few weeks ago it had a population of 15k.


There's a difference between temporary and permament displacement.

wat0n wrote:No, Ukraine should give up the Donbass because of its pro-Russian population.

Putin may say "okay, you can keep the Donbass as long as it's autonomous and can participate in the central government". That won't make it less of a Russian puppet.

That's also why Putin hadn't wanted to recognize them as independent republics before he launched the invasion.

If the people in the Donbass want to be Russian, let them be. Ukraine has a good chance to become more stable and functional in the long run as a result.


Who said the people in Donbas want to be Russians? Certainly not true for the Ukrainian part and questionable for the "Russian part".

This debate is pointless anyway. Ukraine ceding the Russian part of Donbas would have zero effect on this war. Ceding the Ukrainian part would just free up Russian forces to conduct offensives in the South.
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