Roe V. Wade to be Overturned - Page 52 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15235325
"On behalf of all the MAGA patriots in America, I want to thank you for the historic victory for white life in the Supreme Court"

-Republican from Illinois Mary "Hitler was right about one thing" Miller

Every single Republican either is a Nazi or is covering for Nazis. Plain and simple.
#15235329
Scamp wrote:Who is going to take care of a Million unwanted babies?


There are a lot of unfertile couples out there who want babies. The issue is they want healthy, white babies who they can raise in an ideal circumstance. The problem are the kids over 8 years old, male, black and been through a lot of foster homes with a lot of behaviors. No one wants to adopt those kids.

Are you in it for yourself or for the kids who need guidance, a long term family and have parents willing to do the work involved in undoing the damage their druggy parents or incarcerated for life parents and dysfunctional bio families have done to them?

There are about half a million kids like that Scampy in the US alone. Most kids who are in the system are there because the parents are incapable of raising them. Period. You are going to let them age out of the system? Without parents and permanent homes. Becoming another statistic?

When I adopted my son he was older and black and male. They told me those were the kids that no one would adopt. Male, older and black.

They are great kids. A lot of work. A lot of problems. A lot of time and effort. But in the end you do it right? They got a life. They got an education. They become productive and wonderful people. And they avoid the issues that are about parenting that is irresponsible.

But you can't think of yourself and what the ideal situation should be. Everyone wants a beautiful baby to adopt that looks like their own bio family. You got to set that aside and think of the kids first. What can you tolerate? Some people are great with kids with disabilities like deafness, blindness, or learning issues. Others are good with kids with emotional issues or other issues. You go out there and deal with the kids who you can cope with.

But if the society doesn't care about even the kids who are here already? How are they going to tell the women with the pregnancies? Have the kid? But we won't help you at all. You did not get married first. You did not get a college education first. You are not middle class first. It is ridiculous.

Get some sex ed classes and drive the point home. Protect yourself at all times and you have no business having unprotected sex with people you are not willing to start a family with. It is not worth it. Paying child support for 20 years to a person you don't really love or even like.

But the government doesn't spend on teen prevention sex ed stuff. It becomes....don't talk about sex or you might encourage them to have sex. Hell, they are thinking about it if they are a young teen boy about 150 times a day anyway.
#15235332
@Tainari88

Oh so true. It is not easy to save a life but it is so worth it. In my work with homeless people I see the ones who nobody cared for. Did not take a chance on. Couldn't learn to be proud of. There is a point beyond which it is nearly impossible from which to fight back. Even with lots of help. And there really is no 'lots of help' out there. Lost souls.

One day a literate "bum" wrote this on a piece of paper and taped it up in the bathroom of a rescue mission:

Through me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain:
Through me among the people lost for aye.

Justice the founder of my fabric mov'd:
To rear me was the task of power divine,
Supremest wisdom, and primeval love.

Before me things create were none, save things
Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon ye who enter here.


I think Mr. Alighieri would have approved.
#15235336
Drlee wrote:@Pants-of-dog


Well that is pretty much true now, isn't it. Every woman possesses the same two foolproof contraception methods that every man has. They can either say, "no thank you" or they can keep their pants on.


So it is about policing sexual behaviour.

Rape is quite a different thing. It might be wise at this point to point out that not every state has a rape exemption, My own Arizona does not which is logically consistent with the notion that "it" is about the life of the child and not some notion that one ought to punish naughty girls with a baby.


Arizona has a maternal mortality rate of 18.3 deaths per 100,000 live births.

Developed countries have an average of 8. My home country, Chile, is at 13. Uruguay is at 17. All other Latin American countries do worse.

Arizona has such a poor maternal mortality rate because of a lack of services, lack of access to antenatal care, lack of access to family planning, lack of access to good medical health professionals during and after birth, and other medical privileges.

If it was not about punishing women, why are all these medical services not being provided?

But your comments POD beg the question...Is child support the government's attempt to punish men for being unchaste? Or are both of these things just the natural result of an individual choice?


And the government will also chase a lot more deadbeat dads for child support.

How is this ruling a win for anyone?
#15235337
@Pants-of-dog
So it is about policing sexual behaviour.


You are like a broken record. I disagreed with you. I continued to disagree with this. I will disagree with this tomorrow.

This bill is not about punishment. That some women or even men for that matter, may feel punished is a personal choice of theirs. The people who opposed abortion opposed it when pregnancy out of wedlock was very uncommon.

I know that you wish to have an easier argument to make but I am not buying it.

And the government will also chase a lot more deadbeat dads for child support.

How is this ruling a win for anyone?


Seriously? It is a benefit for the mothers who will have help with raising the child and it is a help to the child. :eh:

Oh yea. It is a help to the state which has to fill in if the father is unwilling.
#15235339
If female abortion is a right, then it stands to reason so should male abortion be (I'm too lazy to go through this again). I think @Drlee is essentially right here.

I will say though that there is precedent of dads who were statutorily raped (yes, they were victims of rape) being forced to pay child support. Sometimes without even knowing they had a child.
#15235342
Pants-of-dog wrote:I have done so many times in this thread.

The latest one I was thinking about was the rape exception.

"Punish the sexually active woman pregnancy because it is her fault, but not when it is rape because then it is not her fault."

The rape exception is because it's a matter of consent. You seem hung up on thinking it's a punishment. I don't see why someone would want to punish someone for getting pregnant. Like, why would anyone care? Women are literally allowed to do anything else with their bodies, like nose jobs, boob jobs etc and nobody cares. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that if almost a million unborn babies are killed in the US every year that some people might care? I would find it more alarming of nobody cared.

You're just speculating with totally unsubstantiated claims with no evidence.
#15235343
Pants-of-dog wrote:I have done so many times in this thread.

The latest one I was thinking about was the rape exception.

"Punish the sexually active woman pregnancy because it is her fault, but not when it is rape because then it is not her fault."

The rape exception is because it's a matter of consent. You seem hung up on thinking it's a punishment. I don't see why someone would want to punish someone for getting pregnant. Like, why would anyone care? Women are literally allowed to do anything else with their bodies, like nose jobs, boob jobs etc and nobody cares. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that if almost a million unborn babies are killed in the US every year that some people might care? I would find it more alarming of nobody cared.

You're just speculating with totally unsubstantiated claims with no evidence.
#15235344
Pants-of-dog wrote:I have done so many times in this thread.

The latest one I was thinking about was the rape exception.

"Punish the sexually active woman pregnancy because it is her fault, but not when it is rape because then it is not her fault."

The rape exception is because it's a matter of consent. You seem hung up on thinking it's a punishment. I don't see why someone would want to punish someone for getting pregnant. Like, why would anyone care? Women are literally allowed to do anything else with their bodies, like nose jobs, boob jobs etc and nobody cares. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that if almost a million unborn babies are killed in the US every year that some people might care? I would find it more alarming of nobody cared.

You're just speculating with totally unsubstantiated claims with no evidence.
#15235347
Unthinking Majority wrote:The rape exception is because it's a matter of consent. You seem hung up on thinking it's a punishment. I don't see why someone would want to punish someone for getting pregnant. Like, why would anyone care? Women are literally allowed to do anything else with their bodies, like nose jobs, boob jobs etc and nobody cares. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that if almost a million unborn babies are killed in the US every year that some people might care? I would find it more alarming of nobody cared.

You're just speculating with totally unsubstantiated claims with no evidence.


His point I think is that if fetuses are so important, then consent shouldn't matter.

I think a much better reason is that a female rape victim is 13 times more likely to attempt suicide than a woman who wasn't raped (13% vs 1% of each group, I cited a study on this issue earlier ITT). It's easy to understand that being forced to carry the pregnancy to term may make these odds even worse for the pregnant rape victim, and would justify abortion under the grounds of preventing risk of death or serious bodily harm.

I can actually imagine litigation against those statutes not allowing rape as a reason for abortion in the future, since the ruling upheld the right to an abortion to save the mother's life/prevent serious harm.

Of course I can also imagine future litigation arguing there's a right to abortion based on the long-standing colonial tradition ("deeply rooted in the nation's history") of the quickening standard (~16 weeks). But it would require a justice leaving to be tested, probably Thomas since he's old. This is NOT an argument based on the right to privacy, which was honestly not that great to the point that even in Roe this wasn't regarded as an absolute right, and there's doctrine/precedent that could support it. This would leave the US roughly where European countries stand on this matter, perhaps slightly more permissive than average.
#15235348
I have known women who have abortions. It is by no means an easy decision. They bleed for a week or more, they are in pain, they have guilty feelings, they feel terrible. Hormones out of whack and they are upset. You ask them why? It is simple. Most can't take on the responsibility, the expense or have the time to raise a child. It is damn hard. Hard, hard and hard.

The preschool, the day care, the diapers, the formula, the breastfeeding and time to breastfeed, the clothing, the gear, the costs, the efforts, the problems.

Kid gets sick you call in to work and might lose your job. You have to go to a job interview? Who is going to watch them? How much are they going to charge you?

Children were meant to be raised by a village, a tribe or a group of people. Taking turns dealing with supervising the tribe's, group's, family's, neighborhoods, etc kids. Single mothers or single fathers or even a couple is never enough. My husband had to get two jobs when I gave birth to my little boy. He had to replace the income I brought home. We could not live on his income alone. Not with the costs of child care the way they were. I had dead parents. He had dead parents. No relatives to help out. It had to be paid for child care. Newborns being cared for at six weeks old? It costs about $2500 US dollars a month. That does not include diapers, formula and clothes and bottles, and gear. So one of the adults has to stay home. Period. I was older. Much older than conventional women having newborns. The energy level was low. But I found the energy. But when I fell asleep I could not get up every two hours to feed my baby boy. NO ENERGY LEFT. So my husband would wake up and heat up the breast milk and feed him and burp him every two hours and then go back to bed.

I would wake up at 6 AM and then take over. He would get up and go to work. I would keep going with the baby till 7pm. Make dinner and do a lot of baby laundry and so on. I did not have a car. Rode a bus and brought the baby carriage. Free activities? Library, playground. It was all with an older teen son with issues. Work that angle. It is EXHAUSTING STUFF. I could not pay anyone for help. It was ME. Or my husband only. Working, and trying to get it to work the scheduling. It was YEARS. Of that kind of thing. Costly and hard. Hard, hard and hard.

Women are not going to do it. By themselves? Men running away from that shit. Men don't want the responsibility. Let the woman do it. She can't do it alone guys. The grandparents, the extended family. Someone is out there having to step in. That shit is myth. Otherwise she is leaving the kids in a car, at the mall, or in some precarious position. They can't cope with all that responsibility. The apes in Africa don't reproduce unless they got ape baby coverage in big quantities. 25 is the number where they feel comfortable in the wild having chimps or apes or gorillas born in the wild. One couple on their own having babies for the primates? NO NO NO. They won't do it.

Too hard. The animals know it is way too hard. Why can't these dumbass politicians realize what a gorilla knows through instinct? I have no idea.
#15235349
Drlee wrote:@Tainari88

Oh so true. It is not easy to save a life but it is so worth it. In my work with homeless people I see the ones who nobody cared for. Did not take a chance on. Couldn't learn to be proud of. There is a point beyond which it is nearly impossible from which to fight back. Even with lots of help. And there really is no 'lots of help' out there. Lost souls.

One day a literate "bum" wrote this on a piece of paper and taped it up in the bathroom of a rescue mission:



I think Mr. Alighieri would have approved.


I would have loved to have had more children Drlee. I truly would have loved to have more. But where is the time and the money and above all the support network for parents? Parents need support networks. People they can call to supervise a kid when an emergency crops up. They need to talk to other experienced parents. They need to be in training for how to set up routines and schedules and how to deal with tight budgets because children in the USA are expensive. In Mexico? Everyone relies on each other in a family and in extended families.

You need to be highly organized to raise kids well. A lot of parents are not. That creates stress. You got to be a person with excellent and healthy personal habits. No drugs, alcoholism, addictions and lack of self-discipline. You need your own home, and own income. Steady and reliable. It is a lot of resources you need.

Doing it by yourself is just not feasible for having children.
#15235350
Tainari88 wrote:I have known women who have abortions. It is by no means an easy decision. They bleed for a week or more, they are in pain, they have guilty feelings, they feel terrible. Hormones out of whack and they are upset. You ask them why? It is simple. Most can't take on the responsibility, the expense or have the time to raise a child. It is damn hard. Hard, hard and hard.

The preschool, the day care, the diapers, the formula, the breastfeeding and time to breastfeed, the clothing, the gear, the costs, the efforts, the problems.

Raising a kid is really hard, i agree. What is perplexing is that most people feel bad for the woman for reasons such as above, but they don't seem to extend the same sympathy to the child, who is the real victim in all of this because they had no control over any of this and have zero power/agency, legal recourse, or voice. The mother is severely inconvenienced, but the child loses their life.
#15235351
Pants-of-dog wrote:Arizona has a maternal mortality rate of 18.3 deaths per 100,000 live births.

Developed countries have an average of 8. My home country, Chile, is at 13. Uruguay is at 17. All other Latin American countries do worse.


Unfortunately, these rates are just estimates by the World Bank.

The true Chilean rate seems to be ~23 per 100k births while for the US it's around 20 (pre-COVID, it's possible COVID increased maternal mortality everywhere) and not 19 as the World Bank estimated

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.STA.MMRT
https://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0 ... xt&tlng=es
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/ma ... s-2020.htm

It also seems those rates will increase over time since maternal mortality is increasing by maternal age (a compositional effect). But even then, they are fairly low all in all - and because of the rarity of the event (20 in 100k is a probability of 0.02%) they are also noisy. It will be interesting to see if states banning abortion show a change in the trends - they shouldn't, since abortion to prevent maternal death is still considered a constitutional right.
#15235353
Unthinking Majority wrote:Raising a kid is really hard, i agree. What is perplexing is that most people feel bad for the woman for reasons such as above, but they don't seem to extend the same sympathy to the child, who is the real victim in all of this because they had no control over any of this and have zero power/agency, legal recourse, or voice. The mother is severely inconvenienced, but the child loses their life.


Unthinking, I have had women call me to talk on the phone. I tell them ¨Don't ask me about abortion. I struggled for decades to get pregnant and have a baby. For me babies are a miracle and I would never abort a child of mine voluntarily. I will always choose LIFE. Always. So don't talk to me about aborting. You need to make the decision on your own.¨

Human beings are like all living things on planet Earth. The beginning is very very fragile. A series of cells dividing. In a dance of instructions from the previous instructions that came before.

Tiny sprouts who with time and the right circumstances become a tree that lasts a thousand years.

Life is fragile for all of us. Including the embryos. If you don't have the dedication of a mother who wants you with all her heart from the very beginning? The tide of life will not be kind. This life is never just Unthinking. If you are looking for justice in this life you won't find it. What does exist is that the struggle for existence as old Darwin used to say is the essence of life. If you want a life that is worth having in this world? Struggle for that life you want, need, and work hard for every single day. And that is how you reach the potential to make something out of that fragile beginning. When you were defenseless and yet somehow a woman said to you....I won't stop your need to struggle and be alive. I won't stop it.

But the truth is? All of us have to help that child when it gets here after the battle for life in the womb of the mother is over Unthinking. Once the baby takes its first breath and fills its previously liquid lungs with air? It is the battle for identity, culture, and language, and integration and education, and nourishment and warmth and love and acceptance....the real battle of how do I draw meaning from human existence? Who will help me figure out what being a human being is all about?

Too many people fail to give the humans seeking meaning a way to be the best they can be. Wasting tremendous potential is what happens to people who never got to be who they wanted to be. I love this speech by Viola Davis Unthinking because she captures what truncated human lives become in this world:

Cue it up at 2:10 in this clip. That is what is wasted Unthinking. People who never were allowed to reach their true potential in this life. The tiny embryo struggles in its mother's body....and it is ended. Then the others struggle to be the full potential of humanity. Also ended. When are we going to start to value LIFE and choose it above all else?



Death is easy. Life is a struggle that never ends in this world. This Earth of ours. That savage beauty that is about the ones who got through the fragility....and made it to being human living a human life. None of us are mistakes or failures. Just a bunch of small miracles. Drawing breath.
#15235363
Rancid wrote:This is only possible if each state has a population that is heavily in favor of one or the other.

Well, it depends on if what the majority wants, doesn't it? If ungodly fetus murderers comprise the majority in a state, then abortion should be allowed, if hypocritical religious bigots are the majority in another state, then it should be banned. It's a victory for states' rights as well as state-level pluralism and diversity anyway. :excited:
#15235364
Igor Antunov wrote:Abortion should only be a thing if there is a medical emergency or as a result of rape or incest.


Dude, we've read your creepy thoughts on how to ~court a traditional woman~ we all know this is just how you want to force a woman to stay with you because you have average income.
#15235369
Drlee wrote:@Pants-of-dog

You are like a broken record. I disagreed with you. I continued to disagree with this. I will disagree with this tomorrow.

This bill is not about punishment. That some women or even men for that matter, may feel punished is a personal choice of theirs. The people who opposed abortion opposed it when pregnancy out of wedlock was very uncommon.

I know that you wish to have an easier argument to make but I am not buying it.


If it is not about punishing the pregnant person for their choices, why is it important to make an exception for when they did not choose?

Seriously? It is a benefit for the mothers who will have help with raising the child and it is a help to the child. :eh:

Oh yea. It is a help to the state which has to fill in if the father is unwilling.


Not if they are deadbeats.

And this removal of rights will create more deadbeats.

——————

Unthinking Majority wrote:The rape exception is because it's a matter of consent. You seem hung up on thinking it's a punishment. I don't see why someone would want to punish someone for getting pregnant. Like, why would anyone care? Women are literally allowed to do anything else with their bodies, like nose jobs, boob jobs etc and nobody cares. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that if almost a million unborn babies are killed in the US every year that some people might care? I would find it more alarming of nobody cared.

You're just speculating with totally unsubstantiated claims with no evidence.


Conservatives are not punishing women for getting pregnant l They are punishing women for being sexually active.

———————-

@wat0n

Arizona’s high rate of maternal mortality shows a blatant disregard for women’s health. It is comparable to an openly sexist society like Chile.

Banning abortion is correlated with higher maternal mortality rates, so according to the science, this removal of abortion rights will probably end up with higher maternal mortality in those states that ban it.
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