Roe V. Wade to be Overturned - Page 59 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#15235658
Drlee wrote:@Rancid

OF COURSE THEY DO. They do it with guns all of the time. But Rancid and @Saeko please understand this:

There would be no republican party as a political force today if it had not carefully and calculatedly performed a miracle of states rights. By understanding that political power lies first in the states, they attacked and controlled the state legislatures while the democrats were blundering around worrying about a national agenda. (Still are.) That is why 27% of the voters control the majority of state legislatures and governorship. Seriously you two. Think about what that means. It means that, through gerrymandering they have made republican voter's individual votes more "powerful" than those of democrats. They can control seats in congress by making safe republican seats. They can control constitutional "progress" by preventing amendment. Why do you think the Equal Rights Amendment failed? Most importantly, why do you think that Trump got to appoint three archly conservative supreme court justices after losing the popular vote to Clinton by a whopping 2.9 million votes! And there is NOT ONE SINGLE FEDERAL ABORTION LAW. Every one of the trigger laws and others that will follow, come from the states.

The "old time" conservative movement was all about states rights. Republican candidate for president Barry Goldwater in 1964 famously said, "I do not seek to go to Washington to make government more efficient. I seek to go to Washington to make government smaller."

The problem is that neither of you truly understand a conservative agenda. We have become so entrenched in individual issues such as abortion and guns, that we fail to understand that there really are fundamental differences between conservatism and whatever you want to call democrats these days. (It is a moderate right party but lets not get in the weeds over that.) Conservatives do not necessarily believe that the most sacred ideas of "liberals" are correct. And they vote that way. The response by those liberals? Educate and persuade? Nope. Yell insults. That is all both sides do these days.

Understand that Republicans do not see the concentration of power in state legislatures as a bad thing. They see it as a good thing. They do not see the function of government as a homogenization of American thought. They do not believe in "one size fits all" government. They are fine with dry states, local control of schools and lowering taxes at the national level while raising them at the state level. A very telling comment by Goldwater illustrates one seminal divide between conservatives and liberal. Speaking of education he said:



This is in stark contrast with what most democrats would say the purpose of education is. So now, 60 years after this statement was made, we are shocked and appalled when Republicans want schools to teach STEM and not "Suzie has two mommies". It is utterly consistent with the message since Lincoln. Including the long forgotten time when the Republican party WAS the party of civil rights.

You two are angry. I am not. I have no problem with making individual citizens take charge of their government starting with the states.

Now I am going to tell you something that will really get up your collective noses. This decision and the one on guns may have saved the union. Why? Do not for a moment think that republicans and conservative independents are not deeply committed to their issues. You may not think that a fetus is a child but I can assure you that they do. You and I may "know" that gun control saves lives but they either do not believe that or do not care in service to the 2nd Amendment. By allowing regional differences on issues that are deeply inspiring and important to people of those regions we let the pressure off of the cooker.

So what the fuck. You can't easily get an abortion in Arizona and can carry a pistol at the grocery store. You can get an abortion in New York but can't carry the pistol. Both states are fine with this. That allows us to be a confederation of states rather than breaking apart. And trust me. We know from history that we can break apart and that the cost of reunification is a bloodbath. We do not need that. And we are stronger together than apart.

And finally. What does the overturn of Roe V. Wade really mean in the whole great scheme of things? Not much. It does not advance or retard the rights of women. They still have what they had before. They still have the right to assert their political will where they live and in doing so push that will up to the national level in concert with others. Will they do that? In some places they will and in some they won't. We have NEVER had a government dedicated to letting everyone do what they want to do, when and where they want to do it. We are a nation constrained by local laws; those laws moderated by the constitution of the states and ultimately the federal constitution.

Some women who want abortions will be inconvenienced. They will have to go to an adjoining state to get one. If they are poor that sucks but then it always sucks to be poor, doesn't it. And maybe, just maybe, if women in sufficient numbers want these laws to be overturned they will get to work and do it. If not. Oh well. That is the will of the people.


I used to be on board with this idealization, but it's inaccurate. Since the thread is about abortion, I'll use that as an example as to why you are wrong in your assessment here. It is the stated goal of the Republican party to make abortion illegal in all 50 states; your boy Pence just stated that a day or two ago, and has been echoed within the party numerous times. This alone blows up everything you just stated as bullshit. Thus this assertion you put forth that each state can just decide what they want, and it's all good, is totally inaccurate bullshit. Your party is not that reasonable. This is what you wish, but not what is, and this is why I cannot vote for any of them anymore; the denial within the party is bonkers. Let's not forget that your party supported and denies an insurrection even happened. Apparently you still stand by that treasonous party too. It's simply inaccurate to paint the Republican party as "reasonable" as you are trying to do here. This is another gaslight/propaganda trick like the pro-states-rights lie/gimick.

I would also appreciate it if you stopped lumping me in as a Democrat. You know I'm not one, you know I'm not a dip shit wokiest. Just because I've turned my back on the Republican party doesn't make me a Democrat (another bullshit tactic we see on these forums). I would say, you are still in denial of how insidious that party's true intentions are. You seem to still be hooked to the fantasy they created to make it easier for them to seize absolute power in the longer term.
#15235663
Rancid wrote:I used to be on board with this idealization, but it's inaccurate. Since the thread is about abortion, I'll use that as an example as to why you are wrong in your assessment here. It is the stated goal of the Republican party to make abortion illegal in all 50 states; your boy Pence just stated that a day or two ago, and has been echoed within the party numerous times. This alone blows up everything you just stated as bullshit. Thus this assertion you put forth that each state can just decide what they want, and it's all good, is totally inaccurate bullshit. Your party is not that reasonable. This is what you wish, but not what is, and this is why I cannot vote for any of them anymore; the denial within the party is bonkers. Let's not forget that your party supported and denies an insurrection even happened. Apparently you still stand by that treasonous party too. It's simply inaccurate to paint the Republican party as "reasonable" as you are trying to do here. This is another gaslight/propaganda trick like the pro-states-rights lie/gimick.

I would also appreciate it if you stopped lumping me in as a Democrat. You know I'm not one, you know I'm not a dip shit wokiest. Just because I've turned my back on the Republican party doesn't make me a Democrat (another bullshit tactic we see on these forums). I would say, you are still in denial of how insidious that party's true intentions are. You seem to still be hooked to the fantasy they created to make it easier for them to seize absolute power in the longer term.


Before the Union, Maryland was a Catholic safehaven. Massachussettes landed the Puritans that had the William Bradford breakaway in Rhode Island and the Quakers were there. They're known for their maritaime and fishing and subsidies next to the southern agriculturalist. Virginia also received Puritans that MAY be Puritan Presbyterians at ODDS with the Congregationalist Presbyterian minority? The Virginia planter class was Anglican/Episcopalian. West Virginia broke off for the Scots-Irish heritage Presbyterianism. Virginia named for Elizabeth I and Georgia named for King George as well as the Carolinas some Caroline. The end of French expulsion grouped all French of America into Louisiana, after French King Louis. The German Amish are historical and called everyone English. Florida was a Spanish colony. New Jersey is previously Dutch. Thus George Washington. But what everyone is proud of now instead of States Rights is the undoubted never examined local-mindedness, conformity, and unexamined narrow-mind. Alabama splitting from the Georgia territory to increase pure State Senate presence of Slavery may be death sentence to the logic of the State. Populations and settlers had to be in great numbers in the thousands to request and then enter the Union of States.
The Phillipines as a State to enter the Union, that would be under their language, heritage and background. That is a World War 2 Propaganda point of MacArthur's return to the Phillipines after the Japanese, the possibility of state 51. If "Bonnie Scotland" were to be a State and star on the flag, that's under a Scots language variety heritage. What is the attraction of the power of a State? Likely never to be viable, because of our proud Northwest European heritage along with African American makes an Empire yes that could easily do without the States. Its a majority that can easily do without the States in a particular point in time. It can easily do without the magnitude of human relation that is preached by Presidents one way or the other. What are the pushes and pulls between world States in the first place?
#15235677
Drlee wrote:And finally. What does the overturn of Roe V. Wade really mean in the whole great scheme of things? Not much. It does not advance or retard the rights of women. They still have what they had before. They still have the right to assert their political will where they live and in doing so push that will up to the national level in concert with others. Will they do that? In some places they will and in some they won't. We have NEVER had a government dedicated to letting everyone do what they want to do, when and where they want to do it. We are a nation constrained by local laws; those laws moderated by the constitution of the states and ultimately the federal constitution.

Some women who want abortions will be inconvenienced. They will have to go to an adjoining state to get one. If they are poor that sucks but then it always sucks to be poor, doesn't it. And maybe, just maybe, if women in sufficient numbers want these laws to be overturned they will get to work and do it. If not. Oh well. That is the will of the people.


The number of pregnant people dying from sepsis and other complications associated with illegal abortions and being forced to carry marginally healthy pregnancies will almost certainly increase.

The USA is already a developing country in this regard.

So, it would be more correct to say that it neither advances or retards the rights of women, so much as take them away, since about half of them will have less rights.

Some will have enough money to move. Most will not.

Some women who want abortions will be inconvenienced. Some will be dead. Some will be forced to bear the child of their rapist.

But hey, more dead pregnant people and the removal of rights is apparently a perfectly moral price to pay for no significant reduction in abortions.
#15235699
Pants-of-dog wrote:The number of pregnant people dying from sepsis and other complications associated with illegal abortions and being forced to carry marginally healthy pregnancies will almost certainly increase.

The USA is already a developing country in this regard.

So, it would be more correct to say that it neither advances or retards the rights of women, so much as take them away, since about half of them will have less rights.

Some will have enough money to move. Most will not.

Some women who want abortions will be inconvenienced. Some will be dead. Some will be forced to bear the child of their rapist.

But hey, more dead pregnant people and the removal of rights is apparently a perfectly moral price to pay for no significant reduction in abortions.

What a bleak picture. Thats tough. Hillary Clinton's talking last 2 days.
#15235716
It is the stated goal of the Republican party to make abortion illegal in all 50 states; your boy Pence just stated that a day or two ago, and has been echoed within the party numerous times. This alone blows up everything you just stated as bullshit.


No. It proves what I said is true. IT is the party's goal. That does not mean that in the world of states rights they will win every time. I am curious why you think I would assert anything to the contrary.

Thus this assertion you put forth that each state can just decide what they want, and it's all good, is totally inaccurate bullshit.


Ideally, within the framework of the US constitution, they can. Unless there is an overriding federal law states are sovereign.
Your party is not that reasonable.


By "reasonable" do you mean willing to agree with you or willing to compromise its principles?



This is what you wish, but not what is, and this is why I cannot vote for any of them anymore; the denial within the party is bonkers. Let's not forget that your party supported and denies an insurrection even happened. Apparently you still stand by that treasonous party too. It's simply inaccurate to paint the Republican party as "reasonable" as you are trying to do here. This is another gaslight/propaganda trick like the pro-states-rights lie/gimick.


Nonsense. Calm down. Many republicans, me included do not believe that way. And many democrats are pro life.

I would also appreciate it if you stopped lumping me in as a Democrat. You know I'm not one, you know I'm not a dip shit wokiest. Just because I've turned my back on the Republican party doesn't make me a Democrat (another bullshit tactic we see on these forums).


I don't doubt it at all. I never said you were. Reread my posts. I made no claims about your politics or those of Saeko.


I would say, you are still in denial of how insidious that party's true intentions are. You seem to still be hooked to the fantasy they created to make it easier for them to seize absolute power in the longer term.


You have read my posts over the years and still say this?

There is no doubt in my mind that the Trump wing of the Republican Party wants to seize power and hold it. By force if necessary. There is considerable doubt in my mind that this faction can pull it off. It may well be that Trump goes to jail and the whole bullshit tribe falls through its ass.

I can see that I am not making my point about how states rights can save the union. For me it goes like this:

I live in Arizona. We have a republican majority running the state. Bright red. Even so, we can control them to some degree. We have, even on their watch, established universal health care and dramatically increased the minimum wage.

There is no way in hell that we will get an increase in the minumum wage nationally. But locally. Statewide. Good chance.

Dial down the rhetoric. Stop thinking like an angry man and start thinking like a clever one. That is how the Republicans won this and many other wars. Sound strategic thinking and careful tactical decisions.
#15235721
Drlee wrote: Many republicans, me included do not believe that way.

You cannot continue to pretend that the insurrectionist/extremist element in the Republican party will simply go away if you just ignore it and brush it off as "most of us aren't that way". Anyway, I think you are grossly mistaken in denying how insidious the Republican party has become. So be it then.

I think the authoritarian embrace will continue to grow, get worse, and only when it's too late people will realize what a mistaken path that party has taken. I'm talking about beyond abortion; abortion is a minor (but still serious) symptom in the grand scheme. The court has stated it's ready to legalize more discrimination and authoritarianism at the state level. Just because authoritarianism will happen at the state level, doesn't make it better/ok/acceptable.

For the foreseeable future, I do not see myself voting for anyone in that party. Even if they are reasonable. The willingness to appease the extremist wing, to not denounce it, is gutless & cowardly. We expect our politicians of all stripes to be weaselly pieces of shit, but Republicans have taken it to record high levels.
#15235725
@Rancid @Drlee @BlutoSays

So, now that the right to an abortion has been overturned by the Supreme Court, one must think, who does this fall mostly on? Here is the answer to that question.

Nicquel Terry Ellis and Nicole Chavez of CNN wrote: The Guttmacher Institute, a research group supporting abortion rights, says poor or low-income woman represent 75% of abortion patients.

CNN senior political analyst Nia-Malika Henderson said one of the main reasons why women choose to get an abortion is because they cannot support a child financially.

As abortion rights are determined by each state, the question is whether state officials will expand the social safety net for women who are forced to carry their babies to term.

“They will have to get all sorts of medical care. Will there be paid family leave at these jobs? We know this is going to fall disproportionately on women who are poor of all races; White, Black, Latino, Asian,” Henderson said. “They can’t afford to go to another state where they can get an abortion."


So, are Republicans in states that will or have outlawed abortion, are they prepared to raise taxes and expand the social safety net?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/26/us/women ... index.html
#15235726
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid @Drlee @BlutoSays

So, now that the right to an abortion has been overturned by the Supreme Court, one must think, who does this fall mostly on? Here is the answer to that question.



So, are Republicans in states that will or have outlawed abortion, are they prepared to raise taxes and expand the social safety net?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/26/us/women ... index.html


They will not support such women because they deserve what they get or whatever.
Last edited by Rancid on 27 Jun 2022 22:36, edited 1 time in total.
#15235728
@Rancid

I don't know man. Republicans don't like to pay for anything but they certainly like to take and exploit. I find it interesting that Republicans complain about government in their lives but are supportive of the government telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. It seems that Republicans are OK with the government being involved in people's lives so long as it is not in their own lives. Abortion, will not be an issue for Republicans given they are mostly white and wealthy. Lack of access to abortion falls mostly on poor women and not white wealthy Republicans and the women in their lives. Of course, Republicans know this and know this is the reason why they oppose abortion. They know that overturning Roe vs. Wade will not take away their access to an abortion if they decide they want one.
Last edited by Politics_Observer on 27 Jun 2022 22:38, edited 1 time in total.
#15235730
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid

I don't know man. Republicans don't like to pay for anything but they certainly like to take and exploit. I find it interesting that Republicans complain about government in their lives but are supportive of the government telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. It seems that Republicans are OK with the government being involved in people's lives so long as it is not in their own lives. Abortion, will not be an issue for Republicans given they are mostly white and wealthy. Of course, Republicans know this and know this is the reason why they oppose abortion.


Ooops, I edited my post. They will not support these women is what I meant to say above. Read it again.

The Republican platform is one of entitlement generally. There are things they are very right on, but given they are totally cool (i.e condoning) with subverting the whole system (i.e. because of their feelings of entitlement), then fuck them. They're all pieces of shit, even the moderate ones. Especially the moderate ones. Fucking spineless.
#15235731
@Rancid

I agree, they are pieces of shit. It's all about their sense of entitlement to them and this feeling that rules or laws don't apply to them but only to everybody else. What's even funnier is that they preach about the plague of having a sense of entitlement to those who are poor and do not have this sense of entitlement. They are projecting their own sense of entitlement onto others.
#15235733
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid

I agree, they are pieces of shit. It's all about their sense of entitlement to them and this feeling that rules or laws don't apply to them but only to everybody else. What's even funnier is that they preach about the plague of having a sense of entitlement to those who are poor and do not have this sense of entitlement. They are projecting their own sense of entitlement onto others.


I think another key evolution we will see in their strategy is moving towards pushing authoritarianism down to the state level harder now that they have the courts clearing that path (as @Drlee outlined more or less). They will convince enough people to believe that discrimination/classism is ok when it's done at a state level instead of a nation level. It's an easy sell because the "we are for states rights" hypocrisy is very well consumed and believed by so many of them. I think they will be very successful here. They will consolidated their rule in the red states first, then shit all over "states rights" like the lying pieces of shit they are and go after everything at the national level.

Make no mistake though, they will take another shot at a coup at the national level as well, but this state approach is effectively another front for them to attack.

It's a very good game plan. It will be cheered on like its 1930s Germany.
Last edited by Rancid on 27 Jun 2022 22:53, edited 2 times in total.
#15235735
@Rancid

I agree. However, whether they will be successful remains to be seen and will be up to people to be aware of what is truly going on and be willing to take action and vote strategically. Otherwise, democracy and freedom in the United States are doomed. We will become an authoritarian dictatorship. But ultimately, it's up to people to stop taking their freedom, their rights, and their democracy for granted, and go out there and vote and continually earn their rights, freedom, and democracy. Nothing is free. You have to earn democracy and your rights, otherwise, you will just lose them.
#15235736
Politics_Observer wrote:@Rancid

I agree. However, whether they will be successful remains to be seen and will be up to people to be aware of what is truly going on and be willing to take action and vote strategically. Otherwise, democracy and freedom in the United States are doomed. We will become an authoritarian dictatorship. But ultimately, it's up to people to stop taking their freedom, their rights, and their democracy for granted, and go out there and vote and continually earn their rights, freedom, and democracy. Nothing is free. You have to earn democracy and your rights, otherwise, you will just lose them.


Sure sure, of course. I'm a pessimist about this though. I think they will win it all. The slow boil into dictatorship is very effective. The frog realizes its being boiled in the pot when its too late.
#15235737
Rancid wrote:I think another key evolution we will see in their strategy is moving towards pushing authoritarianism down to the state level harder now that they have the courts clearing that path (as @Drlee outlined more or less). They will convince enough people to believe that discrimination/classism is ok when it's done at a state level instead of a nation level. It's an easy sell because the "we are for states rights" hypocrisy is very well consumed and believed by so many of them. I think they will be very successful here. They will consolidated their rule in the red states first, then shit all over "states rights" like the lying pieces of shit they are and go after everything at the national level.

Make no mistake though, they will take another shot at a coup at the national level as well, but this state approach is effectively another front for them to attack.

It's a very good game plan. It will be cheered on like its 1930s Germany.

The Democrats need to grow some balls and start playing hardball. Trump played hardball, in fact nobody has ever played as hard as that dude. He was unrepentant. You're talking about a party filled with bleeding hearts vs rural gun-owning and military types. Reagan and Thatcher and Trump types will rape Jimmy Carter and Obama types all day long.

Dems have weaksauce Sleepy Joe leading the party. I like Joe, but he's well past his Best Before date. Kamala Harris is a hardass bitch, she can play hardball, let's be thankful she's there to hold up the marionette named Joe.

The Dems are going to have a hell of a time trying to politically isolate the GOP while at the same time avoiding civil war. If the GOP feel powerless they're going to just pull more hijinks
#15235742
Unthinking Majority wrote:The Democrats need to grow some balls and start playing hardball. Trump played hardball, in fact nobody has ever played as hard as that dude. He was unrepentant. You're talking about a party filled with bleeding hearts vs rural gun-owning and military types. Reagan and Thatcher and Trump types will rape Jimmy Carter and Obama types all day long.

Dems have weaksauce Sleepy Joe leading the party. I like Joe, but he's well past his Best Before date. Kamala Harris is a hardass bitch, she can play hardball, let's be thankful she's there to hold up the marionette named Joe.

The Dems are going to have a hell of a time trying to politically isolate the GOP while at the same time avoiding civil war. If the GOP feel powerless they're going to just pull more hijinks


agree, and I've noted previously in this thread that the Democrats are dickless.
#15235743
Rancid wrote:I think another key evolution we will see in their strategy is moving towards pushing authoritarianism down to the state level harder now that they have the courts clearing that path (as @Drlee outlined more or less). They will convince enough people to believe that discrimination/classism is ok when it's done at a state level instead of a nation level. It's an easy sell because the "we are for states rights" hypocrisy is very well consumed and believed by so many of them. I think they will be very successful here. They will consolidated their rule in the red states first, then shit all over "states rights" like the lying pieces of shit they are and go after everything at the national level.

Make no mistake though, they will take another shot at a coup at the national level as well, but this state approach is effectively another front for them to attack.

It's a very good game plan. It will be cheered on like its 1930s Germany.


That may work in red states but I don't see how it carries over to blue or even purple states.
#15235746
Another great empire went from a monarchy to a republic to a dictatorship(Rome). History does repeat itself, often... :hmm:
#15235748
wat0n wrote:That may work in red states but I don't see how it carries over to blue or even purple states.


Recall when Trump tried to have voting machines seized?
Recall when Trump started pressuring state level officials to over turn elections he didn't like?
Recall when a SCOTUS judge's wife was involved in the fake electors plot?
Recall the fake electors plot?
Recall jan 6th?
Recall the primary in New Mexico where they didn't want to certify an election be "fraud" when there wasn't any?
Recall all the senators/house members that are still backing the big lie?
Recall all of the people around Trump going along and "humoring" him?

Wait for the mid-terms and watch all the claims of "fraud" roll in.

How much more of this do I need to remind you of? Of course they will take over an rule with impunity.

All of this will slowly grind away at any semblance of a democratic system. This is the equivalent of Putin just shelling the shit out of a town in Ukraine into dust.

This country is already on the path to becoming a complete fucking shithole.
#15235750
Rancid wrote:Recall when Trump tried to have voting machines seized?
Recall when Trump started pressuring state level officials to over turn elections he didn't like?
Recall when a SCOTUS judge's wife was involved in the fake electors plot?
Recall the fake electors plot?
Recall jan 6th?
Recall the primary in New Mexico where they didn't want to certify an election be "fraud" when there wasn't any?
Recall all the senators/house members that are still backing the big lie?
Recall all of the people around Trump going along and "humoring" him?

Wait for the mid-terms and watch all the claims of "fraud" roll in.

How much more of this do I need to remind you of? Of course they will take over an rule with impunity.

All of this will slowly grind away at any semblance of a democratic system. This is the equivalent of Putin just shelling the shit out of a town in Ukraine into dust.

This country is already on the path to becoming a complete fucking shithole.


But I also recall how all of these attempts failed, miserably at that. We have to wait and see, but I find it extremely unlikely the GOP will be able to pull any stunts off on this election. Not without the WH.
  • 1
  • 57
  • 58
  • 59
  • 60
  • 61
  • 93
Russia-Ukraine War 2022

According to " Bloomberg ", European i[…]

No, they can't. Their documents are stolen by the[…]

I prefere this music: https://www.youtube.com/wat[…]

I sometimes wonder, if the US is so much into gun[…]