Roe V. Wade to be Overturned - Page 62 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15235855
Drlee wrote:
20 years in the army? Yea. I think so.



A Greek from thousands of years ago would have recognised what Jan 6 was instantly, it's nothing new.

History suggests that if the problem isn't dealt with, they will try again, and they will likely have learned from their previous mistakes.

This is going to get ugly.

https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellan ... ademicats/
#15235862
Drlee wrote:I don't disagree. The economy Biden presidency is tanking the Biden presidency economy.



Fixed it for you.
#15235882
The US has created the perfect toxic situation. It is the historical source of popular uprisings since the beginning of time. To illustrate there is this quote from President Lyndon Johnson:

“If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”


Well we did that. Both parties and the SCOTUS. We have allowed obscenely wealthy people to control all of our political discourse. The poor white men who used to take solace in the above no longer can. They are at the bottom of the heap ACCORDING TO THEIR PERSPECTIVE. (Yes I know but that is how they see it.)

With the Citizen's United decision in which the Roberts court destroyed the last vestiges of democracy in the US complete control of the government was handed to the wealthy. Elections now are little more than bread and circuses. Look at Trump. The iconoclastic rich guy. He bragged about his wealth. The savior of the nation because he alone can control the other rich guys. Especially all the rich liberals. (Because everyone knows that liberals are either rich or "colored". He gave them their racism back just as Johnson said they should.

The coup is over and Justice Roberts cast the vote that ended any struggle against it.
#15235890
Drlee wrote:The US has created the perfect toxic situation. It is the historical source of popular uprisings since the beginning of time. To illustrate there is this quote from President Lyndon Johnson:



Well we did that. Both parties and the SCOTUS. We have allowed obscenely wealthy people to control all of our political discourse. The poor white men who used to take solace in the above no longer can. They are at the bottom of the heap ACCORDING TO THEIR PERSPECTIVE. (Yes I know but that is how they see it.)

With the Citizen's United decision in which the Roberts court destroyed the last vestiges of democracy in the US complete control of the government was handed to the wealthy. Elections now are little more than bread and circuses. Look at Trump. The iconoclastic rich guy. He bragged about his wealth. The savior of the nation because he alone can control the other rich guys. Especially all the rich liberals. (Because everyone knows that liberals are either rich or "colored". He gave them their racism back just as Johnson said they should.

The coup is over and Justice Roberts cast the vote that ended any struggle against it.


So just to understand your post, what you are saying is that the US is becoming a more normal Western democracy, where class trumps race?

I mean, sorry but the obsession this country has with race (which is broader than mere racism) is odd. If race stops being such a divisive issue, it's not strange that the focus will turn to class.
#15235891
Rancid wrote:agree, and I've noted previously in this thread that the Democrats are dickless.


You don't have a true left. Bernie Sanders are basically normal socialists in other nations in Europe. The radical left is a lot more numerous in other countries because they did not get eliminated in the 50s like it happened in the USA. So there is not really a left with the ability to pressure the hard right in the USA. It does not exist in the states.

I think the USA is going to have a coup and minority rule. And who knows how all that pans out? Most fascistic dictatorships go a bit crazy with a lot of restrictions on speech, human rights, no abortions, no raising of wages, no social mobility, a lot of racism in the institutions. The only thing the extreme does right generally is lowering crime. That they do well. Throwing more people in jail for long sentences especially the poor. They never tax any rich people and force the poor to pay a lot and never get any services in exchange.

That is the future for the USA.

No climate change investments either. It will accelerate climate issues and global warming. They don't care about the Earth either.

I am thinking the US got to this point due to lack of education in government and apathetic people not involved in change. Too many people just don't care Rancid. Too busy watching social media and worrying about shit that is irrelevant to their lives.

Plus, blackballing the Left. Getting rid of the Left. People don't seem to realize that if you have a very far Right like fascists never persecuted for a long time? And you hate and eliminate the opposite politics on the other side? You don't get a natural counterbalance and eventually the entire country only swings to the side that is allowed to be there without any real opposition.

Most nations like Mexico always had far Left present. Always. Even through all their politicial turmoil. They balanced the Right well and kept it from going full Fascist. Not in the USA. Again, they feared the far Left so much that they went on a witch hunt in the 50s and eliminated it all. So now there is the dickless moderate right that is the Democrats. They are bought off moderate right wingers. So they can't counter the Fascists. They never could.

People just don't understand much in political science in the United States. Part is a campaign to eliminate the Left and say we play no role in politics when we do. Very important roles. Mostly because the moderate right won't ever have any way of countering fascist resolutions. They lack dedication to working class and lower class people.

So much ignorance in politics. I get tired of it a lot.
#15235896
If there's ever another civil war in the US the left won't be much of a fight against a highly armed Trumpy right wing. Some young people on the left would come out throwing Molotov cocktails and burning buildings like the Floyd riots, and maybe a lot of minorities too would fight against the Trumpsters

The ones who would put up a real fight against the Trumpsters are the moderate swing voters and the few sane patriotic folks on the right... if any still exist.

So basically it would be the midwest vs the southern states, and urban vs rural in the rest of the country, while the coastal left bankrolls those with the training to fight. The good thing is the left has a lot more money than the Trumpster hillbilly supporters.

In the 1st civil war the north won because they had much of the money, the industry, and the population.
#15235897
Unthinking Majority wrote:If there's ever another civil war in the US the left won't be much of a fight against a highly armed Trumpy right wing. Some young people on the left would come out throwing Molotov cocktails and burning buildings like the Floyd riots, and maybe a lot of minorities too would fight against the Trumpsters

The ones who would put up a real fight against the Trumpsters are the moderate swing voters and the few sane patriotic folks on the right... if any still exist.

So basically it would be the midwest vs the southern states, and urban vs rural in the rest of the country, while the coastal left bankrolls those with the training to fight. The good thing is the left has a lot more money than the Trumpster hillbilly supporters.


Sure, but like in most civil wars, it will come down to what the military decides to do. DO they stay loyal to whoever is president when this war breaks out, or do they pick their side and basically install a military government?

My read is, if a Trumpster is in the white house, then we will go full authoritarian very fast. If a non-Trumpster is in office... hard to say, we could still go full authoritarian, but maybe not has harsh.
#15235898
Rancid wrote:Sure, but like in most civil wars, it will come down to what the military decides to do. DO they stay loyal to whoever is president when this war breaks out, or do they pick their side and basically install a military government?

My read is, if a Trumpster is in the white house, then we will go full authoritarian very fast. If a non-Trumpster is in office... hard to say, we could still go full authoritarian, but maybe not has harsh.

Agree. Military is the wild card.

I don't know if the establishment wing of the GOP would go authoritarian. This would be the Cheney types. They're in a war with the Trumpsters for control of the GOP.
#15235915
Drlee wrote:And how is it that the constitution is established and amended? oh yea. That would be states rights. :roll:



Only those articulated in the constitution and not some, like the absurd concept of "body integrity" that exist only in your wishful thinking.

And how do the people exercise their individual franchise?

Oh yea. Through the states. There are only two elected officials who are not a function of the rights of the states. they are the President and Vice President. And actually only one because we are not given the right to vote for a different vice president that the one the presidential candidates select.

How are SCOTUS members confirmed? Oh yea. Through the actions of representatives of the states.

And if the federal government decided to ban abortion completely, how could this be stopped? Oh yea. Through the actions of the state legislatures as the first representatives of the people.

It would be a very good idea for you and Rancid to take a government class. Just for fun.


That is how Jim Crow laws were upheld for years. State legislatures. The feds had to impose from DC and try to create a federal mandate for the ones who wanted to hold on to the separate water fountains and movie theaters, and lunch counters. But if you make a federal mandate over the states then you can override states rights. But? Enforcing that is problematic. As we saw during the Civil Rights movements in the USA.

States rights are going to be in conflict with other states and the people who want abortions are going to have to go to the states where it is legal. But all abortions have limits. Very few nations or any government in the world allows abortions in the eighth or ninth month of pregnancy.

If people want the right to abort in the first trimester they will have to fight it state by state.

Otherwise have enough money to stay at a hotel for a week and book an abortion in an abortion clinic in the states that allow it. Many poor women can't do that. So that means you are giving birth to a kid. Period or going to the old route of illegal abortionists making money in private clinics and homes. Women getting infections and dying and so on. This road has been travelled before.
#15235919
Unthinking Majority wrote:If there's ever another civil war in the US the left won't be much of a fight against a highly armed Trumpy right wing. Some young people on the left would come out throwing Molotov cocktails and burning buildings like the Floyd riots, and maybe a lot of minorities too would fight against the Trumpsters

The ones who would put up a real fight against the Trumpsters are the moderate swing voters and the few sane patriotic folks on the right... if any still exist.

So basically it would be the midwest vs the southern states, and urban vs rural in the rest of the country, while the coastal left bankrolls those with the training to fight. The good thing is the left has a lot more money than the Trumpster hillbilly supporters.

In the 1st civil war the north won because they had much of the money, the industry, and the population.


They still do Unthinking Majority. Have the money and the industry and the population voters. That is why the Republicans are extremists now with the violence. The numbers don't support them.

But the Republicans now in this present Republican party want to keep power even though they don't have the numbers. So the only avenue they will use is violence and authoritarianism.

It could go on for a long, long time or be over quickly. In a puff of smoke. But it is all about what the US voter is willing to do to force change. If they remain wishy-washy and weak in resolve? The power vacuum and momentum will be on the Right and on the Republican side. And they will be violent and decisive. And repressive.
#15235980
Unthinking Majority wrote:If there's ever another civil war in the US the left won't be much of a fight against a highly armed Trumpy right wing. Some young people on the left would come out throwing Molotov cocktails and burning buildings like the Floyd riots, and maybe a lot of minorities too would fight against the Trumpsters

The ones who would put up a real fight against the Trumpsters are the moderate swing voters and the few sane patriotic folks on the right... if any still exist.

So basically it would be the midwest vs the southern states, and urban vs rural in the rest of the country, while the coastal left bankrolls those with the training to fight. The good thing is the left has a lot more money than the Trumpster hillbilly supporters.

In the 1st civil war the north won because they had much of the money, the industry, and the population.
Oh, I expect that there would be some armed resistance from the far left, in the form of such outfits as the Redneck Revolt, and the John Brown Gun Club. It's just that the left-wing militants aren't as flashy and overt as such extreme right counterparts, such as the Proud Boys , for reasons that should be obvious, given COINTELPRO .
#15236000
So just to understand your post, what you are saying is that the US is becoming a more normal Western democracy, where class trumps race?


No.


I mean, sorry but the obsession this country has with race (which is broader than mere racism) is odd. If race stops being such a divisive issue, it's not strange that the focus will turn to class.


I am saying that race is not even part of the equation at all. That is over. Minorities lost the war. White working class people lost the war. Both are nothing more than servants of the extremely wealthy. All that remains to be see is if they can keep up the facade of democracy.

It may well be that the red state ascendancy will take the pressure off of the cooker.

Make no mistake. There is no group that can or will stand up to armed rednecks. Only the military can do this and we will see what they do.
#15236116
Politics_Observer wrote:
The overturning of Roe vs Wade is all about white patriarchal control. I sound like the liberal that I proudly am. :D



White Power, it's not just for psychotics now...
#15236120
@Politics_Observer
The overturning of Roe vs Wade is all about white patriarchal control


I agree that many will try to cast it that way but it really isn't.

One of the failures of the pro-choice group is to try to make complicated what is actually a very simple thing. People who are pro life really believe that abortion kills a baby. They really do. And they oppose it. Nothing more. No patriarchy. No backroom white men meeting to decide how to oppress women. Nothing of the sort.

Having said that.

The Republican leadership can recognize a winning political position when they see one. They can see that this issue guarantees them a significant number of votes. And it does this in states that they targeted to control. So, as a party, they run pro life candidates, particularly in the districts where the sentiment is very popular. This is just smart politics.

And here we are wringing our hands about national woman's rights when the decision did NOTHING about national woman's rights. All it did was tell the states that they can, through the democratic process, decide what the law will be in their state.

So AGAIN FOR THE 2 MILLIONTH TIME. The solution for your beef, if you have one at all, lies in the democratic process in the states. If women want the right to choose they can have it. All they have to do is band together with sympathetic men in their community and elect people who will restore their right. It really is as simple as that. And if one thinks about it this should be much easier than trying to fight a nearly impossible national battle.

If a woman or man who supports the right to choose an abortion lives in an area where the democratic process precludes changing the anti-abortion laws, and the issue is that important to them, they can move.

Sometimes, because of one's opinion, democracy sucks. For example, I do not like the uber permissive gun laws in Arizona. Every time I see a geezer with a belly pack for his Glock or a kid with a gun on his hip at Walmart I am angered. Nevertheless, the issue is not important enough for me to move to a state with stricter gun laws. That is what democracy is all about.

We have a constitution that is very specific. Even so it has been interpreted to death for 200 years. But in all that time the one thing that has remained constant is that the laws that govern our day to day existence proceed from the states. The founders would be shocked at the number of federal laws. They would have expected all of the issues that they could have imagined to have been resolved at the state level.

After he was defeated in the Civil war, Robert E. Lee said the following:

"The interests of the State are therefore the same as those of the United States. Its prosperity will rise or fall with the welfare of the country. The duty of its citizens, then, appears to me too plain to admit of doubt. All should unite in honest efforts to obliterate the effects of war, and to restore the blessings of peace. They should remain, if possible, in the country; promote harmony and good feeling; qualify themselves to vote; and elect to the State and general Legislatures wise and patriotic men, who will devote their abilities to the interests of the country, and the healing of all dissensions. I have invariably recommended this course since the cessation of hostilities, and have endeavored to practice it myself."


Even after the ultimate test of states rights in our history, we see that his first remedy lies in electing people to the state legislatures.

So no. This is not about the patriarchy. I defy anyone here to tell me how this law further empowers men more than they already are empowered. If anything it could diminish our power if it unites sufficient women to the cause of woman's rights.

This issue is FAR simpler than all of the discussion seems to want it to be.
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