Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 314 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15236137
Beren wrote:Sure, efficiency and effectiveness were more important at the beginning than they're now. At the beginning Ukraine should have been taken by a sudden strike, which was their primary objective, now they're just struggling to take the Donbas somehow. Russia's lowering its objectives instead of elevating its war efforts, especially in the hinterland. Putin's just changing commanders while he's not willing to mobilise and escalate, but not any of his generals will be able to defy material circumstances and do wonders for him on the battlefield.


Putin is not holding back. The very fact the war objectives have been scaled down dramatically is evidence of this. He was forced into scaling down after various tactical and eventually strategic failures, he didn't choose to scale down.

Had Putin started with the Donbas only from the start, maybe this point of puting "holding back" might have some credence. Right now, it simply doesn't. If his intent was to hold back, why did he even try for Kyiv?
#15236139
Rancid wrote:Putin is not holding back. The very fact the war objectives have been scaled down dramatically is evidence of this. He was forced into scaling down after various tactical and eventually strategic failures, he didn't choose to scale down.

Had Putin started with the Donbas only from the start, maybe this point of puting "holding back" might have some credence. Right now, it simply doesn't. If his intent was to hold back, why did he even try for Kyiv?

He was forced to scale down, of course, but the point is that he's always adjusting his objectives to a constant level of war efforts and he's totally unwilling to mobilise and escalate more than he originally decided to, although it'd also be an option. At first he wanted the whole of Ukraine, but when he failed at that, he adjusted his objectives to a set of possibilities defined by the available resources decided by him initially. As a matter of fact he's been pretty flexible with his objectives while being totally inflexible with his initial decision as to whether how much resources can be used for this war.
#15236153
Since it is obvious that Putin would use a temporary armistice only to fill up his losses again, and since he openly said he will not stop with the whole of Ukraine, i wonder what we are waiting for?
Putin has to be stopped hard, in a way he and his adlati understand.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15236154
Wels wrote:Putin has to be stopped hard, in a way he and his adlati understand.


Agree. As stated in another thread.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. Putin has laid out his imperialist ambitions. There should be no negotiating with him until he's out of Ukraine. Hence hwy I think NATO need to join in.
By Rugoz
#15236156
Beren wrote:As a matter of fact he's been pretty flexible with his objectives while being totally inflexible with his initial decision as to whether how much resources can be used for this war.


He's only inflexible when it comes to the forced mobilization of Russians. Everything else is on the table.
#15236157
Rugoz wrote:He's only inflexible when it comes to the forced mobilization of Russians. Everything else is on the table.


Well, that is a good question. Russians themselves seem to estimate that they will run out of steam by mid/late august for sure.
#15236161
Rancid wrote:Where are you seeing/hearing/reading this?


There is a theory floating around right now about this. Russians prepared a referendum for the occupied territories for September 11th to make the conquest "legitimate" to some degree. Well September 11th is also a meme against the US I suppose. But the more important part might be that you only conduct a referendum when you are done conquering. You don't do it when you are still capable to conquer more. So if we put that on the timeline, several weeks to one and half month before that they will need to go on the defensive.
User avatar
By Wels
#15236163
I do not think so, with Donbas invaded, destroyed, cities flattened, rape, torture, and people – especially children (200,000 children. Do you even UNDERSTAND what this is?) deported, Russia can stage as many referendums as it wants, no one will take this seriously, not even Russia :lol:
And not Ukraine for sure. :|

Those war crimes like targeting civilians all the time while bemoaning there are not more Ukrainian civilians dying (like this Antinoff subhuman thing does) like it is being published in russian media, are not isolated acts of terrorism, this is organized russian state terrorism, a new war with the goal to exterminate Ukraine, an invasion of a sovereign country by another with atrocious means. And Russia will not stop with Ukraine.
Sending in weapon systems that can target the source of these russian attacks from Belarus or russian soil is the least we can do. Will it escalate things? How very unfortunate, yes I hope it will. Bring it on.

A quote from Yamamoto that Russia should digest well: “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.”
Last edited by Wels on 29 Jun 2022 21:12, edited 7 times in total.
#15236164
NATO has been bringing a lot more troops here lately to Eastern Europe. This report talks about the Russian attack on a shopping mall and then follows up by talking about NATO recently boosting its troop levels even more in Eastern Europe.

Last edited by Politics_Observer on 29 Jun 2022 21:19, edited 1 time in total.
#15236165
Wels wrote:I do not think so, with Donbas invaded, destroyed, cities flattened, rape, torture, and people especially children deported Russia can stage as many referendums as it wants, no one will take this seriously, not even Russia :lol:
And not Ukraine for sure. :|

Those war crimes like targeting civilians all the time while bemoaning there are no more Ukrainian civilans dying (like this Antinoff subhuman thing does) like it is being published in russian media, are not isolated acts of terrorism, this is organized russian state terrorism, a new war with the goal to exterminate Ukraine, an invasion of a sovereign country by another with atrocious means. And Russia will not stop with Ukraine.
Sending in weapon systems that can target the source of these russian attacks from Belarus or russian soil is the last we can do. Will it escalate things? I hope it will, bring it on.


Listen i do agree with you but you can't just ignore the rational of the other side if you wanna figure out something. I mean from the Putins and Russias perspective that is a first step to come to some peace treaty that might be beneficial for them. They can't simply just take the land and thats it, they have to conduct a false referendum for it to follow "The letter of the law" so to speak.

It is a massive waste of time after all because nobody will recognize it and Ukraine will not stop fighting but they just need to do it for there to be a chance at a peace treaty along with sanctions getting lifted in their mind.
User avatar
By Wels
#15236166
But their is no rationale on the russian side. "In their mind", this is of course correct. Their mind is spoilt and sick, and not. rational.
IF this "peace treaty" happens it will not be worth the paper it's written on.
Lifting of sanctions and going back to relations before february 2022 is out of the question.
Should not bother Russia's government of course, sanctions only hit the average poor people, not the russian nomenclatura.
#15236186
Wels wrote:Should not bother Russia's government of course, sanctions only hit the average poor people, not the russian nomenclatura.


To be fair you can do nothing if you put minimizing casualty too high on your priority list.

We need to accept there are people who are to die horribly one way or another, despite them being innocent and not who we actually want to get rid of.
#15236190
”To be fair you can do nothing if you put minimizing casualty too high on your priority list.

“We need to accept there are people who are to die horribly one way or another, despite them being innocent and not who we actually want to get rid of.” - Chairman Mao
#15236192
Potemkin wrote:”To be fair you can do nothing if you put minimizing casualty too high on your priority list.

“We need to accept there are people who are to die horribly one way or another, despite them being innocent and not who we actually want to get rid of.” - Chairman Mao


My surname is not Mao :lol:
#15236195
ingliz wrote:Why?

If your shit is going to be blown up anyway, you may as well win the PR war. And if your human shields deter the enemy from blowing up your shit, job well done.

There is no downside.

:)


Other than instead of 36 people dying in a fire, 900 die in explosions. Seems like a downside. Kiev may be occupied by a puppet state, but it's not going to target its own supporters in bulk, yet.

Similarly if the mall actually had been targeted and hit by air launched precision weapons that actually struck the rail warehouse nearby (accurate to within 2m) all those alleged 1000 people in the mall would be dead right now as the mall is small enough to be completely pulverized by two missiles.
#15236201
Patrickov wrote:My surname is not Mao :lol:

It might as well be, which is my point.

Here’s another quote for you, @Patrickov:

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster himself. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” - Friedrich Nietzsche
#15236203
Politics_Observer wrote:@Igor Antunov

Well, Finland and Sweden are joining NATO. Plus, NATO has put 300,000 troops on high alert.



Any warm water ports there? No? Industry? No? Fertile soil? No? Irrelevant.
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