[Tainari88]

Venezuela lost 20% of its population and its GDP decreased by 400% because of Maduro and Chavez. Come on.

I think Maduro sucks. But? The USA guys are not helping stabilize the nation by setting up some guy that is not able to get the backing of the Venezuelan military. They don't trust US gov't interferences. Why? They see the problems and it is a long history John.

Operation Gideon.

It is not the only one that was a failed coup attempt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gideon_(2020)

The Venezuelans would like to have their nation back. But? While there is a mistrust of the people the USA gov't backs? The regular working folk will not be on their side. The Venezuelan military in general went for Chavez. Chavez is dead and the ex-bus driver Maduro is in charge. Do I think he is capable of running a nation with the pressure of the US and the huge oil reserves without any of the petroleum experts helping him? No, he is incapable.

But the USA is just a vulture with zero trustworthiness.

[JohnRawls]

I think Maduro sucks. But? The USA guys are not helping stabilize the nation by setting up some guy that is not able to get the backing of the Venezuelan military. They don't trust US gov't interferences. Why? They see the problems and it is a long history John.

Operation Gideon.

It is not the only one that was a failed coup attempt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gideon_(2020)

The Venezuelans would like to have their nation back. But? While there is a mistrust of the people the USA gov't backs? The regular working folk will not be on their side. The Venezuelan military in general went for Chavez. Chavez is dead and the ex-bus driver Maduro is in charge. Do I think he is capable of running a nation with the pressure of the US and the huge oil reserves without any of the petroleum experts helping him? No, he is incapable.

But the USA is just a vulture with zero trustworthiness.

Listen, loosing 400% of your gdp means that you produce 4 times less of goods, services and so on in simpler terms. You might be for distribution of wealth and so on since the previous right wing government before maduro/chavez didn't care about it that much but reality is when you produce 4 times less then there is not much you can distribute.

Equating Maduro or Chaves to the Soviet Union would be humiliating for the Soviet Union. The only place that you can equate Venezuela right now is perhaps North Korea but they didn't loose 20% of their population.

[Tainari88]

Listen, loosing 400% of your gdp means that you produce 4 times less of goods, services and so on in simpler terms. You might be for distribution of wealth and so on since the previous right wing government before maduro/chavez didn't care about it that much but reality is when you produce 4 times less then there is not much you can distribute.

Equating Maduro or Chaves to the Soviet Union would be humiliating for the Soviet Union. The only place that you can equate Venezuela right now is perhaps North Korea but they didn't loose 20% of their population.

John, you need to stop making false comparisons. Russia and the ex USSR are its own circumstances. Colombia and Venezuela and Latin America are another set of circumstances. Each nation has specific conditions. Africa and Latin America have been exploited for their enormous resources for a very long time by the Eurpean powers and the USA for a very long time now. The entire economy of the region is set up to be extraction economies. Not independent economies with self sustaining well educated populations.

Puerto Rico lost more than half of its population because being a colony of the USA is not set up to help the Puerto Ricans have a great economy independent of the USA relationship. There are about 3 million Puerto Ricans in the island, and about 6 million in the USA. After Hurricane Maria they lost to migration about 200 to 300,000 people. And that is a pro capitalist and super controlled by the USA nation. It is not shocking to lose 20% of your population with that kind of bad economic extraction shitty style of setup John.

Why doesn't the economy work? If you do a lot of investigation into Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Chile and many others? There is a very very consistent pattern. It has been extremely detrimental for the nations with the extraction setup economy where it is one sided and it only favors foreign banks, the IMF and debt service to other financial interests and in fact in Superimperalism by Michael Hudson (you should read it), it is the way the black ops from the USA get their money to operate in Latin America. Use the debt to pay for their own enslavement is the premise.

When you try to break that cycle of dependency whether it is on the USA federal fund transfers in Puerto Rico, or debt payments to the IMF in Mexico, Brazil, Argentina or Peru, etc. you get a backlash from hell from the US corporate insterests. This is backed up with the documents and historical facts talked about with Major General Smedley Butler who was a USMC man who did the work for the Washington DC people in the 1930s and before. It is there in front of your eyes John.

But if you keep thinking that the circumstances of Latin America are the circumstances of Europe or Asia or some other group that have been on the receiving end of Latin America's wealth? You would be invalid in analysis.

The VP of Colombia is Francia Marquez. She is a lawyer and an activist. She worked as a domestic servant.

She is really the kind of leader Colombia needs so is Gustavo Petro. Human rights and with a lot of experience fighting corporations and being able to bring peace in the chaos.

How do you deal with the problems that Latin America faces? First of all? Education. Invest enormous amounts in getting people educated. And I do mean well educated. Speaking various languages with fluency, reading and writing and science, math, technology and also art and tradition. If it is one thing the Latin Americans do extremely well is art, and artistic endeavors. Also tradition is something that is of enormous beauty. The land in Latin America is the best on Earth. I am being objective. It is the most varied, the most fertile, enormous and full of every possible utility. That is why the corporations are after it. So is the PRC. They know that if China is to survive and expand and hold on to power it needs everything Latin America has in abundance. The USA has thought they can force their way into dominating the decisions in this region. They have been successful because the USA was the only superpower after WWII left standing without an economy in ruin. The USSR imploded in the early 90s and now the PRC is coming on strong. So? The mistakes the USA has made are related to overspending on wars that were not productive. And because they overspent they can't buy their way in legitimately. They will have to accept lack of control from afar....for the foreseeable future. That is a good thing for Latin America. The control issue with the USA has retarded growth and prosperity enormously in Latin America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia_M%C3%A1rquez

[JohnRawls]

John, you need to stop making false comparisons. Russia and the ex USSR are its own circumstances. Colombia and Venezuela and Latin America are another set of circumstances. Each nation has specific conditions. Africa and Latin America have been exploited for their enormous resources for a very long time by the Eurpean powers and the USA for a very long time now. The entire economy of the region is set up to be extraction economies. Not independent economies with self sustaining well educated populations.

Puerto Rico lost more than half of its population because being a colony of the USA is not set up to help the Puerto Ricans have a great economy independent of the USA relationship. There are about 3 million Puerto Ricans in the island, and about 6 million in the USA. After Hurricane Maria they lost to migration about 200 to 300,000 people. And that is a pro capitalist and super controlled by the USA nation. It is not shocking to lose 20% of your population with that kind of bad economic extraction shitty style of setup John.

Why doesn't the economy work? If you do a lot of investigation into Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Chile and many others? There is a very very consistent pattern. It has been extremely detrimental for the nations with the extraction setup economy where it is one sided and it only favors foreign banks, the IMF and debt service to other financial interests and in fact in Superimperalism by Michael Hudson (you should read it), it is the way the black ops from the USA get their money to operate in Latin America. Use the debt to pay for their own enslavement is the premise.

When you try to break that cycle of dependency whether it is on the USA federal fund transfers in Puerto Rico, or debt payments to the IMF in Mexico, Brazil, Argentina or Peru, etc. you get a backlash from hell from the US corporate insterests. This is backed up with the documents and historical facts talked about with Major General Smedley Butler who was a USMC man who did the work for the Washington DC people in the 1930s and before. It is there in front of your eyes John.

But if you keep thinking that the circumstances of Latin America are the circumstances of Europe or Asia or some other group that have been on the receiving end of Latin America's wealth? You would be invalid in analysis.

The VP of Colombia is Francia Marquez. She is a lawyer and an activist. She worked as a domestic servant.

She is really the kind of leader Colombia needs so is Gustavo Petro. Human rights and with a lot of experience fighting corporations and being able to bring peace in the chaos.

How do you deal with the problems that Latin America faces? First of all? Education. Invest enormous amounts in getting people educated. And I do mean well educated. Speaking various languages with fluency, reading and writing and science, math, technology and also art and tradition. If it is one thing the Latin Americans do extremely well is art, and artistic endeavors. Also tradition is something that is of enormous beauty. The land in Latin America is the best on Earth. I am being objective. It is the most varied, the most fertile, enormous and full of every possible utility. That is why the corporations are after it. So is the PRC. They know that if China is to survive and expand and hold on to power it needs everything Latin America has in abundance. The USA has thought they can force their way into dominating the decisions in this region. They have been successful because the USA was the only superpower after WWII left standing without an economy in ruin. The USSR imploded in the early 90s and now the PRC is coming on strong. So? The mistakes the USA has made are related to overspending on wars that were not productive. And because they overspent they can't buy their way in legitimately. They will have to accept lack of control from afar....for the foreseeable future. That is a good thing for Latin America. The control issue with the USA has retarded growth and prosperity enormously in Latin America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia_M%C3%A1rquez

Listen, it has been a long time since nobody is really exploiting South America.

Using that as an excuse that in the past SA was exploited and so on is disingenuous as of 2022 so I am not sure why are you defending Venezuela. I really have never understood this why fight for someone or something that doesn't deserve your support or respect even. This applies to any right or left wing regimes honestly.

[Pants-of-dog]

@JohnRawls

Please tell me when exploitation of Latin America ended.

Thanks.

[JohnRawls]

@JohnRawls

Please tell me when exploitation of Latin America ended.

Thanks.

On mass in the 19th and 20th centuries and fully after the end of the cold war.

[Pants-of-dog]

On mass in the 19th and 20th centuries and fully after the end of the cold war.

So why were people still being killed en masse as late as 2008?

[JohnRawls]

So why were people still being killed en masse as late as 2008?

By whom? By US, UK, Spanish or French soldiers? Give concrete examples how is SA under imperialism please if you wanna discuss something in earnest here.

[Pants-of-dog]

By whom? By US, UK, Spanish or French soldiers? Give concrete examples how is SA under imperialism please if you wanna discuss something in earnest here.

Please see my previous post in this thread about Biden and his relationship with the 2008 False Positives scandal.

[JohnRawls]

Please see my previous post in this thread about Biden and his relationship with the 2008 False Positives scandal.

Colombians killing Colombians is not imperialism. US provides international aid to many countries as the rest of developed world and it does end up in corrupt hands since the countries that receive that aid are usually more corrupt on average.

I am not sure how this is imperialism please describe IN DETAIL how is this imperialism.

[Tainari88]

By whom? By US, UK, Spanish or French soldiers? Give concrete examples how is SA under imperialism please if you wanna discuss something in earnest here.

Read her website John. She received a human rights prize for defending human rights. Against paramilitary forces and those were trained in the School of the Americas. Set up by the USA military and its government.

https://www.franciamarquezmina.com/

https://www.glimpsefromtheglobe.com/top ... cas%20(SOA)%20was%20founded%20in%201946,to%20Fort%20Benning%20in%20Georgia.


John Rawls originally it was founded in Panama.

I will highlight the parts that are relevant for you to understand and if you can argue why this school only taught classes in Spanish if the intention was for it to be a general school for military recruits?


The School of the Americas, located in Fort Benning, Georgia, has a known history of producing graduates that have gone on to become some of the worst human rights violators in the Western Hemisphere, including nearly a dozen dictators. The notorious training facility has been condemned by human rights groups for decades but remains functioning today under the name Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC), with some graduates now going on to work for U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE).

The School of the Americas (SOA) was founded in 1946 in the Panama Canal Zone, and intended to function as a training ground for the increasing number of Latin Americans attending U.S. service schools. Under the Panama Canal Treaty, SOA was expelled from Panama in September 1984 and moved to Fort Benning in Georgia. The Army facility brought in recruits from across the Americas, and classes were taught in Spanish to accommodate foreign students. By 1949, SOA produced 749 U.S. military personnel and 251 Latin American graduates, representing 10 different countries. In 1956, Spanish became the official language of the school, and classes stopped being taught in English.

The Cold War saw the United States back numerous bloody coups against democratically-elected Latin American socialist leaders in favor of supporting, training, and arming military dictators. The United States has had its hand all over the region in the 20th century, the coup of Salvador Allende and U.S. support for dictator Augusto Pinochet being one of the most infamous examples. The School of the Americas has been given the moniker “School of the Dictators” and “School of the Assassins” as almost a dozen Latin American dictators have been graduates of the institution. Panama’s drug-dealing dictator Manuel Noriega and El Salvador’s Roberto D’Aubuisson are just two examples.

Why are they against the left and socialism in Latin America? They don't invade socialism inspired policy nations in Sweden, or Finland or Norway or Denmark. Spain had a socialist PM why not invade Spain? Socialism is kind of a mainstream political position in a fair amount of nations. Why not invade them or torture and kill to make sure it is Right Wing Military dictators instead? They only do that John in Latin America because that is where their investments are. The land, the cheap labor, and the resources are vital for their corporations and banks to make money. Period. So they have to be anti-democratic. They got to go for dictatorship training and killer squads to keep the people scared to death of trying to advocate for their own human rights for decent wages, land rights, and human and civil rights. Got to make sure they get NOTHING.

So what happens? People get tired of the intimidation tactics, the rapes, murders, kidnapping and never having electricity services, water and basic educations. They get sick of it. So they organize and go for voting for change.

Francia Marquez and Gustavo Petro are the result of Colombian organizing. Will the USA start with 'they are terrorists, commies, got to kill them off, got to persecute them, pull funding, fund the opposition, shoot them in the head, enemies of the USA...etc?

That story is getting very very old and worn with the Latin Americans.

[Pants-of-dog]

Colombians killing Colombians is not imperialism. US provides international aid to many countries as the rest of developed world and it does end up in corrupt hands since the countries that receive that aid are usually more corrupt on average.

I am not sure how this is imperialism please describe IN DETAIL how is this imperialism.

Please note that I never claimed it was imperialism.

You said exploitation ended at the end of the Cold War. I mentioned an example where exploitation is ongoing. If Russia was doing something similar in Eastern Europe, we would all (rightly” condemn this as a problem.

This is why Colombia is electing leftists now: because the exploitation of Colombians by US supported right wingers is still a problem.

[wat0n]

Petro doesn't have even a third of the Colombian Congress. How will he be able to do anything?

[Tainari88]

@wat0n it doesn't matter if he doesn't dominate the congress. The important facts are he won the presidency. It sends the message to the Right Wing killers that came before that the voters in Colombia are tired of their bad leadership.

Trying to get a nation to change and get everything where it needs to be is a long and difficult road. It requires a lot of dedication. Being deadlocked and not having any left at all? You get some gridlock crap with fascist takeovers. Like you have currently in the USA with the hearings. The GOP is not a majority party but it will be in the congress and the senate in the USA and it will have a democrat president or some other deadlocked problem.

That is what happens when you have interfered with a democratic process a lot. You don't care about Latin America Wat0n. Why even render an opinion if you don't give a shit about South America?

Study the issue. If you care. If you just want to be a millionaire because that shit is easy to achieve in the USA in Chicago? Who cares what happens in South America eh?

You are going to fit in with the Scamps for sure. They don't give a damn about anybody in the world but the conservative types in the USA. Small minded and dumb most of them are. You want to fit in with them? Stop speaking Spanish and become some Gringo que no le importa un carajo excepto su mierda de mentalidad.


Lol.

[wat0n]

You did not answer my question. How will Petro fulfill any of his promises without legislative support?

[Tainari88]

Oh goodness, I thought I lost this reply I did for @JohnRawls yesterday and it seems I sent it to drafts. Here it is:

I think Venezuela is in really bad shape economically. Do I blame the Venezuelan government and corruption. Yes, part of the problem is that. But the bigger issue is trusting the USA with the world's largest oil reserve and not Venezuela going back to Right wing military people who are puppets of the US banks and corporations. They got a bad pattern of doing that in every nation in Latin America. They SUCK. The USA needs to stop the bullshit in that region.

Otherwise? What happened in Colombia will happen in every nation in Latin America. For example Francia Marquez the vice president of Colombia had a long drawn out battle with AngloGold mining in her region of Colombia. They wanted to kick off the land the Afro Colombians who lived there for many generations in order to exploit the gold and mine without any restrictions. They used mafia tactics to get it done.

She had to live in exile. A bunch of threats on her life John. The corporations from the US and other Western nations play hardball in Latin America and are basically thugs, killers, and murderers, rapists, torturers and blackmail everyone. They have eroded the trust of the voters in all the nations who have had that horrible experience.

Trying to blame the countries problems on the incompetence of some ex bus driver, and bad economic planning and having a lot of actors going against the reforms or changes? Is being unfair.

You better start thinking of the Latin Americans as equal human beings John. Because most of the Europeans DON'T. They trust what the Washington DC sellouts say Latin Americans are. That is a big mistake. They distort everything because they are beholden to the corporations who are vastly interested in the wealth Latin America possesses. Latin America has such enormous wealth on every level in terms of resources that giving up on not exploiting that part of the world for the corporations is not going to be an option. The problem becomes when the government people get used to disrespecting democratic systems and traditions and they wind up having people with experience in coups and power plays based on arms and force that become an integral part of the political parties in the USA. I see the direct correlations to that with current events in the USA. Do you?

@wat0n you just want all the Left to fail. That is what you want. You want the USA gov't to be the model for the world and in Latin America because? They are just, and right and the best and etc. It is all bullshit for me. I see them as liars, cheats and abusive imperialists. We will never agree.

If I had to investigage into Colombian politics? I would have to see where the previous human rights activists had success with their policies and where they failed to make progress and why? Then suggest solutions to either getting around the obstructionism of the Colombian congress or senate? Or where there could be local progress and deal with that. But in the end if there is lack of unity in any government in the world of any nation? There will be lack of progress. Unity is critical for all real progress. Conflict and fighting for power among differing ideologies? It will never work for making a lot of things function. That is reality.

For all countries.

Answer the question @wat0n do you give a damn about South America? Yes or no? Answer the question you panzista! Hee hee hee?

Do you care yes or no?

[wat0n]

@Tainari88 as a born and raised South American, I care far more about it than you do.

So will you tell me how will Petro deliver without having even a third of the Colombian Congress? Normally that would mean he should moderate his proposals, but we don't know if he will since that would amount to backstabbing his far leftist base. He may also choose confrontation, which would be disastrous yet perfectly possible.

What makes you think Petro won't end like Castillo in Perú, if he decides to go for confronting the Colombian Congress, or like Lasso in Ecuador if he decides to give in to Congress and backstab his leftist base? Both administrations are largely failing.

[JohnRawls]

Oh goodness, I thought I lost this reply I did for @JohnRawls yesterday and it seems I sent it to drafts. Here it is:

I think Venezuela is in really bad shape economically. Do I blame the Venezuelan government and corruption. Yes, part of the problem is that. But the bigger issue is trusting the USA with the world's largest oil reserve and not Venezuela going back to Right wing military people who are puppets of the US banks and corporations. They got a bad pattern of doing that in every nation in Latin America. They SUCK. The USA needs to stop the bullshit in that region.

Otherwise? What happened in Colombia will happen in every nation in Latin America. For example Francia Marquez the vice president of Colombia had a long drawn out battle with AngloGold mining in her region of Colombia. They wanted to kick off the land the Afro Colombians who lived there for many generations in order to exploit the gold and mine without any restrictions. They used mafia tactics to get it done.

She had to live in exile. A bunch of threats on her life John. The corporations from the US and other Western nations play hardball in Latin America and are basically thugs, killers, and murderers, rapists, torturers and blackmail everyone. They have eroded the trust of the voters in all the nations who have had that horrible experience.

Trying to blame the countries problems on the incompetence of some ex bus driver, and bad economic planning and having a lot of actors going against the reforms or changes? Is being unfair.

You better start thinking of the Latin Americans as equal human beings John. Because most of the Europeans DON'T. They trust what the Washington DC sellouts say Latin Americans are. That is a big mistake. They distort everything because they are beholden to the corporations who are vastly interested in the wealth Latin America possesses. Latin America has such enormous wealth on every level in terms of resources that giving up on not exploiting that part of the world for the corporations is not going to be an option. The problem becomes when the government people get used to disrespecting democratic systems and traditions and they wind up having people with experience in coups and power plays based on arms and force that become an integral part of the political parties in the USA. I see the direct correlations to that with current events in the USA. Do you?

@wat0n you just want all the Left to fail. That is what you want. You want the USA gov't to be the model for the world and in Latin America because? They are just, and right and the best and etc. It is all bullshit for me. I see them as liars, cheats and abusive imperialists. We will never agree.

If I had to investigage into Colombian politics? I would have to see where the previous human rights activists had success with their policies and where they failed to make progress and why? Then suggest solutions to either getting around the obstructionism of the Colombian congress or senate? Or where there could be local progress and deal with that. But in the end if there is lack of unity in any government in the world of any nation? There will be lack of progress. Unity is critical for all real progress. Conflict and fighting for power among differing ideologies? It will never work for making a lot of things function. That is reality.

For all countries.

Answer the question @wat0n do you give a damn about South America? Yes or no? Answer the question you panzista! Hee hee hee?

Do you care yes or no?

While i can't say that corporations don't do evil things but I am not sure Venezuelan oil is the aim of US since they are oil independent and world largest oil producers and soon to be the world largest gas producer at the same time along with export. You don't overthrow a government or meddle with it if you don't really need anything from it and Venezuela is a classical case of not being anything useful for US. I mean there is literally nothing that Venezuela can provide overall to America. May be now with the large prices US would be okay with Venezuela expanding production but not previously.

What I am trying to say is that there is literally 0 economic reason for US to conduct any imperealism in Venezuela and that has been the case for a while now. There is literally nothing of worth in Venezuela for America.

Also the economy of Venezuela tanked way before there were any sanctions. Since you probably forgot, All sanctions were removed from Venezuela at some point to normalise relations and that happened under Chavez. Even the small ones. And new ones were introduced after the economy tanked and country faced massive protests with majority of it happening even under Maduro and not even late Chavez.

What I am trying to say is that Venezuelan economy got ruined first by Chavez and Maduro and only then you can blame imperealism from US for new sanctions that they implemented after falsification of elections and crackdown on opposition.