[Puffer Fish]

Only what happened and the motives/intent of the rapist are relevant.

Since you have studied law, you know that is not true. What the criminal did and his intent is certainly part of the picture, but punishment is also based on how much damage was caused or harm inflicted, regardless of whether the criminal specifically intended to cause that level of damage.

Part of the reason for punishment often involves justice for the victim.

If a victim had something stolen from them or was harmed, and that victim tells the judge that they do not want the perpetrator to be given too much punishment, then the judge is very likely going to take that into account and give a much more lenient sentence. In some cases the police may not even arrest the perpetrator if the victim says they do not want to press charges. (Even if there was plenty of other witnesses and the crime was recorded on security camera)

[Puffer Fish]

There you go again, blame the victim.

That is actually not blaming the victim, although you feel it is.
It is simply recognising that this woman victim has probably faced less damage than another woman victim.

Not every male judge will consider the woman a slut.

It's a spectrum. It's not all black and white, virgin or slut. There are levels in between.

[Pants-of-dog]

That is actually not blaming the victim, although you feel it is.
It is simply recognising that this woman victim has probably faced less damage than another woman victim.

That makes no sense.

How is there less damage?

[Puffer Fish]

That makes no sense.

How is there less damage?

Sigh... Isn't that what this entire thread is about?

I think I've already stated the relevant reasons why.

Of course, if something like virginity is not something that is at all valued in your social circles or modern culture, then I could understand how it might be impossible to understand.

[Puffer Fish]

You never mention relevant facts

You talk about "relevant facts", but let me point out that same logic of yours could be used to argue that rape is not that bad or doesn't really do that much damage.

A lot of this is psychological. Damage that cannot be seen. (Although there is of course her hymen)

Maybe you have a hard time understanding how a woman who has never had sex before and wants to save it for her husband (whom she hopes to spend the rest of her life with) might be damaged more than another woman who has sex with strange men every night?

(And that question is sarcastic and rhetorical)

[Pants-of-dog]

Sigh... Isn't that what this entire thread is about?

I think I've already stated the relevant reasons why.

Of course, if something like virginity is not something that is at all valued in your social circles or modern culture, then I could understand how it might be impossible to understand.

Are there any reasons that are relevant to the person who is raped?

[Puffer Fish]

Are there any reasons that are relevant to the person who is raped?

Not unless you view a young woman being forced to lose her virginity as unimportant.

Are there any reasons that are relevant to the person who is raped?

Just for clarification, are we talking about why a female being forced to lose her virginity is a bad thing, apart from and in addition to the rape?

So the question you are really asking is why is it bad for the woman in this position to have lost her virginity?

Or are you asking how could one woman be much more psychologically damaged by a non-consensual sexual encounter than another, based on her past sexual history?

[Pants-of-dog]

Or are you asking how could one woman be much more psychologically damaged by a non-consensual sexual encounter than another, based on her past sexual history?

This, obviously.

[Puffer Fish]

Let's start here:

Do you believe a prostitute is just as much damaged by non-consensual sex (because the customer refused to pay her) as a normal woman is damaged by non-consensual sex?

[Godstud]

Do you believe a prostitute is just as much damaged by non-consensual sex (because the customer refused to pay her) as a normal woman is damaged by non-consensual sex?

A rape is still a rape, regardless of how often a victim engages in Consensual sex prior to the incident. This is a FACT you want to ignore.

Even if a woman sells sex(Consensual), if she is raped(Non-Consensual), it will have exactly the same impact on the victim. Remember, any sex she had with Consent, was not rape, regardless of who or how many people she had sex with.

The effects of rape vary from individual to individual. Saying that a person who had lots of sex might suffer less, is simply your own ignorant, immoral, and asshole opinion. It has no basis in reality. You are still trying to defend rape, @Puffer Fish.

Go take up boxing so if see you, the punches to your fat stupid face won't bother you, as you've been Consensually punched so many times before.

[MistyTiger]

You talk about "relevant facts", but let me point out that same logic of yours could be used to argue that rape is not that bad or doesn't really do that much damage.

Rape is not that bad, what the fuck are you on? Using your logic, if a person gets a neck injury at the age of 20 and then another neck injury at age 50, the neck injury at age 20 is less damaging to their neck? Have I got that right? Ok. Where is MY mega pint of wine?

A lot of this is psychological. Damage that cannot be seen. (Although there is of course her hymen)

Are you an expert at measuring amount of psychological damage? What are your measurements in pounds or other numerical units of measure? Next time you meet a rape victim, I dare you to ask about her hymen. See if she finds that amusing or if she ends up punching you in the nose.

Maybe you have a hard time understanding how a woman who has never had sex before and wants to save it for her husband (whom she hopes to spend the rest of her life with) might be damaged more than another woman who has sex with strange men every night?

(And that question is sarcastic and rhetorical)

You seem to be preoccupied with virgins, kind of creepy. So you prefer to date girls going through puberty? I think you might be surprised to know that not too many women fixate about keeping their virginity until marriage. The current culture praises women who are great in bed, meaning they are not virgins in their 20s.

You have not been paying attention. At any age, a rape victim feels traumatized after rape, regardless of being a virgin or not. A person goes crazy when they are under attack and pyschological trauma happens when the mind is struggling to deal with the ordeal.

[MistyTiger]

That is actually not blaming the victim, although you feel it is.
It is simply recognising that this woman victim has probably faced less damage than another woman victim.

Who are we to judge whether woman A has faced less damage than woman B? Why bother comparing cases? Each case is considered different from the other in court. The judge and jury focus on the victim's case before them.

It's a spectrum. It's not all black and white, virgin or slut. There are levels in between.

A judge's verdict is clear. The judge does not have time to give an iffy in between verdict and debate on why out of 5 cases, only 1 is the worst due to virginity status. That would be a waste of time.

[Igor Antunov]

These are all moot discussions. It's all circumstantial. There are entire sex industry kinks involving prostitutes coming to rape you and vise versa. At a certain monetary point it is no longer considered rape. It is how Hollywood execs got away with rape for so long, they paid their 'victims' afterwards or even before.

Is it rape if she or he changes their mind and says 'yes' after being offered more money?

[MistyTiger]

Since you have studied law, you know that is not true. What the criminal did and his intent is certainly part of the picture, but punishment is also based on how much damage was caused or harm inflicted, regardless of whether the criminal specifically intended to cause that level of damage.

Part of the reason for punishment often involves justice for the victim.

If a victim had something stolen from them or was harmed, and that victim tells the judge that they do not want the perpetrator to be given too much punishment, then the judge is very likely going to take that into account and give a much more lenient sentence. In some cases the police may not even arrest the perpetrator if the victim says they do not want to press charges. (Even if there was plenty of other witnesses and the crime was recorded on security camera)

I have never heard of a judge being lenient because the victim asks that the rapist not be given too much punishment. This is not taught. The judge listens to witness testimony, reviews the exhibits and evidence as well as considers the lawyers' statements. Punishment is delivered based on the judge's discretion and the severity of the crime. A judge is not going to ask about a hymen and give a heavier sentence based on that alone. They look at more concrete things like if the victim became disabled and lost thousands in wages due to the rape or if the victim nearly died due to all the physical injuries received.

[Godstud]

These are all moot discussions. It's all circumstantial. There are entire sex industry kinks involving prostitutes coming to rape you and vise versa. At a certain monetary point it is no longer considered rape. It is how Hollywood execs got away with rape for so long, they paid their 'victims' afterwards or even before.

No. It's not all circumstantial. That's bollocks. Are you another rape advocate?

Rape Fantasy Role-playing is still consensual. It's not rape. It's ACTING. I know even you know this, but are playing really dumb to troll, no doubt.

Money has nothing to do on whether it is rape or not. It may still be rape, but the victim might be sufficient compensation for the injury they have suffered.

eg. If I punched you in the head, but then gave you $10,000 not to press charges, you might just take the money. That does NOT mean that I didn't assault you.

[Puffer Fish]

It's all circumstantial. At a certain monetary point it is no longer considered rape. It is how Hollywood execs got away with rape for so long, they paid their 'victims' afterwards or even before.
Is it rape if she or he changes their mind and says 'yes' after being offered more money?

If she accepts money after the fact, in my opinion she is like a prostitute, and should NOT be able to get the man charged with rape.

But this is a separate topic, and I don't wish to derail this thread.

Hopefully she has the principles to not accept any money and make sure her rapist faces punishment.

Oh, in the Muslim World, the perpetrator usually has to make a money payment to the family of the girl to compensate them for taking her virginity. It's something that will really hurt her marriage prospects, and will make her dowry payment much smaller.

[Puffer Fish]

A rape is still a rape, regardless of how often a victim engages in Consensual sex prior to the incident.

But it is not the same rape.
If that was what you were trying to imply, then I respectfully very much totally disagree with you.

Even if a woman sells sex(Consensual), if she is raped(Non-Consensual), it will have exactly the same impact on the victim.

That is so absurd, I really wonder if you can actually believe this.

Saying that a person who had lots of sex might suffer less, is simply your own ignorant, immoral, and asshole opinion.

Sorry if the truth is offensive.

It has no basis in reality.

In my opinion it is your belief that is detached from common sense reasoning and reality.

Go take up boxing so if see you, the punches to your fat stupid face won't bother you, as you've been Consensually punched so many times before.

I think that's a failed analogy.

A slightly better analogy might be if I let people punch me for money, and then one day someone punched me - just like everyone else - except without paying me money. Oh, and they did it at a time I did not feel like doing it.

Anyway, Godstud, I think you ignore the exact precise reasons why rape is wrong in the first place.
It's not merely just an issue all and only about consent, like you seem to try to boil it down to.

I would say the woman's REASONS for consent (or lack thereof) very much play a role into how violated she is. It's not as simple as just she was raped or she wasn't.
Women oftentimes have very good reasons for not wanting to have sex with a man, to put it bluntly.

[Puffer Fish]

A judge is not going to ask about a hymen ...

No, but the woman could bring it up if she wanted to, and I guarantee you it would then be highly probable the prosecutor would make sure that the jury was informed of the fact to make the accused look as bad as possible.

A judge is not going to ... give a heavier sentence based on that alone.

There are multiple factors.

They look at more concrete things ...

A hymen is one of the most concrete physical things that could happen.

(Just think about the extra pain, for one thing)

[Patrickov]

A hymen is one of the most concrete physical things that could happen.

@MistyTiger is a woman while you are not. I think she has more authority in this matter than you do.

[Puffer Fish]

At any age, a rape victim feels traumatized after rape, regardless of being a virgin or not.

But she will probably be even more traumatised if that was her first time having a sexual experience with another person.

Seems like an especially terrible thing to do to a female to steal away her first experience from her like that. From then on, every time she has sex thereafter she is probably going to associate it with the traumatic experience. The first time we have an experience, we usually draw an association in our mind, and that association can be permanently etched into the psyche.
It could very likely lead to sexual relationship problems in her marriage later when she gets married.

At least if she had sex with her husband first before the assault, a connection would have established itself in her mind between sex and tenderness/love.