Russia-Ukraine War 2022 - Page 415 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Wels
#15249101
^ I do not agree to all, but least to
wouldn't Kiev be wrong if they wished to subjugate Luhansk & Donetsk?
.
"Subjugate"? These two regions belong to Ukraine. Russia has tried long enough to make it its territory by all kinds of tricks from agents provocateurs to those little green men providing military help to the first, but fact is that the majority of Luhansk & Donetsk sees no need to become a member of Russia. Seems there are between 32 and 38 percent speaking russian, but even this does not mean even these want to join Russia.
Before the russian invasion there was not much problem whether you spoke russian or ukrainian, there were and are kinsmanlike relations all over the place, from western Ukraine into Russia.
Please do not argue with the last-days propaganda Putin calls a "referendum" :(
#15249102
Wels wrote:^ I do not agree to all, but least to .
"Subjugate"? These two regions belong to Ukraine. Russia has tried long enough to make it its territory by all kinds of tricks from agents provocateurs to those little green men providing military help to the first, but fact is that the majority of Luhansk & Donetsk sees no need to become a member of Russia. Seems there are between 32 and 38 percent speaking russian, but even this does not mean even these want to join Russia.
Before the russian invasion there was not much problem whether you spoke russian or ukrainian, there were and are kinsmanlike relations all over the place, from western Ukraine into Russia.
Please do not argue with the last-days propaganda Putin calls a "referendum" :(


Is that an Outlaw Josey Wales avatar..?

Anyhow: these regions did vote 90%+ for the pro-Moscow President who was ousted in the "Revolution of Dignity", right?

They held a referendum in 2014 that inspired separation from the Ukraine and led to civil war... Do you deny the validity of that? Was that just special agents acting in the area to sabotage the unity of the Ukraine?

If that is so baseless... Why has pro-Russia sentiment and a desire to unite with Russia been so strong in the Ukraine before even all of this was relevant? There was the 1991 referendum in which 94% wanted to separate from the Ukraine, and the 1994 referendum in which 82% wanted to have dual Russia/Ukraine citizenship and 78% wanted greater autonomy from the Ukraine... Etc.
#15249103
The revolution of dignity or Maidan or ukrainian revolution happened with a reason.

" [...] a wave of large-scale protests (known as Euromaidan) erupted in response to President Yanukovych's sudden decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. In February of that year, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) had overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU.
Russia had put pressure on Ukraine to reject it."


re
Verv wrote:Is that an Outlaw Josey Wales avatar..?

it was assigned automatically when registering here, i somehow came to like it ;)
Last edited by Wels on 30 Sep 2022 09:57, edited 1 time in total.
#15249105
Verv wrote:Anyhow: these regions did vote 90%+ for the pro-Moscow President who was ousted in the "Revolution of Dignity", right?

They held a referendum in 2014 that inspired separation from the Ukraine and led to civil war... Do you deny the validity of that? Was that just special agents acting in the area to sabotage the unity of the Ukraine?

If that is so baseless... Why has pro-Russia sentiment and a desire to unite with Russia been so strong in the Ukraine before even all of this was relevant? There was the 1991 referendum in which 94% wanted to separate from the Ukraine, and the 1994 referendum in which 82% wanted to have dual Russia/Ukraine citizenship and 78% wanted greater autonomy from the Ukraine... Etc.


Surveys on secession right after the 2014 revolution.
Image
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014 ... e-country/

This one is more detailed (region, ethnicity):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mon ... secession/
https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=319
(e.g. in Donas 22.5% wanted to join Russia and 8.4% wanted independence).

Surveys on the status of Donbas.

2017/2019:
https://www.zois-berlin.de/fileadmin/me ... 3_2019.pdf
(e.g. in 2019 95.4% in the Ukrainian-controlled Donbas wanted Donbas to remain a part of Ukraine while only 54.5% in the Russian-controlled Donbas said so)

2017:
https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... ine_en.pdf
(Besides, in this survey only 1% say the "status of the Russian language" is an important issue for Ukraine, vs. corruption with 46% for example).
#15249107
Verv wrote:Very good and informative post - I liked all of it except the ASOIAF/GoT reference, lol.


Everyone says "Winter is coming" in Germany now, because we know we'll freeze. :(
#15249109
Wels wrote:"Subjugate"? These two regions belong to Ukraine.

So that means you can bomb your own territory for 8 years, killing at least 14,400 civilians in the process, according to the UN ? And thats just the dead, probably theres one to two times as many permanently mangled victims, too. The UN didnt count those.

Ukraine has lost the right to the Donbas, plain and simple. They kept bombing their own territory for eight years despite the fact there have been THREE generations of Minks agreements on how to stop the civil war in 2014 and 2015. And apparently Zelensky ran on finally implementing the third Minsk agreement when he ran for president (I read the claim somewhere but never found evidence, thats kind of hard to do if you dont speak ukrainian), which if true turned out to be an election lie, he did diddly squat for three years.

So unsurprisingly the Donbas wanted out of Ukraine. They already wanted out of Ukraine in 2014 when they did a referendum about that. Back then it was about independence, with 89% in favor. And fortunately Ukraine is powerless now to get the area back to terrorize them even more.

If you disagree about that, do you also for example disagree with that the USA got out of the british commonwealth ? If not, you're a hypocrite. The USA cut ties with britain simply because of taxes. Not because the UK bombed their civilians or anything like that.
User avatar
By Wels
#15249111
re Negotiator: Read the statistics posted by Rugoz and others. And stop the wrong propaganda with the 14,000 people killed, to justify the russian invasion.


Igor Antunov wrote:Nuclear Airbursts don't spread radiation beyond the blast radius, brainlets. Only strikes on land.

I guess this is why we can still detect radioactive residuals of the nuclear tests from july 1945 on, in the atmosphere?
Which is why only subterranean nuclear tests have been done for reducing worldwide fallout?
(OT which again is why certain scientific instruments for measurement have to be produced by steel being made before this date (like from sunken ships etc.))
And for those bunker busting strikes tactical nukes have a very low comparative yield, therefore radiation spread is negligible.

Probably ok if you do not live near this point for the next 10,000 years.
Then I take it using depleted uranium for bullets like used by NATO in the middle east and even former Yugoslavia is ok for you? Fine. But not for me.
Russia could employ hundreds of tactical strikes in eastern europe, air-burst and land based, without any significant radiation damage. Indeed, this is why Russia has the largest tactical nuke arsenal (2,000), for exactly that purpose.

Showing off a bit, but first fallout damage is NEVER negligible (even if it does not instantly kill) and second Russia does not have (whatever how much) tactical nukes ("for exactly that purpose") to protect the environment :lol:
NATO can't win in Ukraine for this reason, and Putin knows it, therefore he will continue until NATO bows out of the conflict.

If Putin only knew anything else than his own ego.
Last edited by Wels on 30 Sep 2022 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
#15249112
Negotiator wrote:They already wanted out of Ukraine in 2014 when they did a referendum about that. Back then it was about independence, with 89% in favor.


Only braindead morons trust referendums organized by Russia respectively its cronies. Democracy is a joke to these people, useful only for KGB psyops.
User avatar
By Wels
#15249114
Rugoz wrote:Only braindead morons trust referendums organized by Russia respectively its cronies. Democracy is a joke to these people, useful only for KGB psyops.

Exactly. "The Kremlin has indignantly rejected allegations that Russia was behind the pipeline sabotage in the Baltic Sea. Just as Vladimir Putin also claims Russia did not initiate the war in Ukraine. Or that his country is not attacking civilian targets there.
Putin has also called the accusation that Moscow is weaponizing energy "a load of nonsense." Even before the attack on Ukraine, both Putin and his foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, dismissed any claims of such intent as malicious speculation. Now it seems, everyone in eastern Ukraine who took part in their sham referendums is in favor of Russian annexation.
The list of lies is endless."



"Deutsche Welle" also writes

Nord Stream sabotage likely Russian blackmail
The internet is awash with conspiracy theories about what caused the Nord Stream leaks. But Moscow is the only one to benefit — at least indirectly

https://beta.dw.com/en/opinion-nord-str ... a-63282676
#15249116
Wels wrote: And stop the wrong propaganda with the 14,000 people killed, to justify the russian invasion.

If you claim that information provided by the United Nations is "propaganda" then I'm frankly not interested with talking to you.
By Rugoz
#15249117
Negotiator wrote:If you claim that information provided by the United Nations is "propaganda" then I'm frankly not interested with talking to you.


Those people (mostly military and not only civilians as you claimed) were killed as a consequence of a Russian invasion.

Russia started the war in 2014 and it started the war in 2022.
#15249127
I know it is not needed and it won't happen, but you know what would be funny, when Ukranian army recovers its whole territory, they also do another sham referendum with 99% people voting to leave russia and join Ukraine, that would be fun :lol:
User avatar
By Rancid
#15249130
XogGyux wrote:I know it is not needed and it won't happen, but you know what would be funny, when Ukranian army recovers its whole territory, they also do another sham referendum with 99% people voting to leave russia and join Ukraine, that would be fun :lol:


I have this feeling that if Ukraine takes back most/all of it's territory. @Igor Antunov will probably stop posting on pofo. That's what weasel's do basically, run away like a puss. Not sure about @ingliz and @Independent_Srpska though.

Anyway, I have been learning more about the history of Kyiv/Rus. It is interesting how basically Kyiv's historical through line is one of north-south more so than east-west. Meaning, Kyiv's/Rus's cultural/historical legacy is far more tied to Byzantium (Greeks have their fingers in everything @noemon lol), the vikings, Lithuania/Poland, than it is to Moscow. In fact, Moscow's development is much more a consequence of the Mongols than anything that happened in Kyiv. IN short, this whole "Kyiv always belong to Moscow" stuff is mostly made up for imperialist/political reasons. Even if "Kyiv always belong to Moscow" though, not that Putin is justified in his war of imperialism anyway.
#15249132
Rancid wrote:I have this feeling that if Ukraine takes back most/all of it's territory. @Igor Antunov will probably stop posting on pofo. That's what weasel's do basically, run away like a puss. Not sure about @ingliz and @Independent_Srpska though.

Anyway, I have been learning more about the history of Kyiv/Rus. It is interesting how basically Kyiv's historical through line is one of north-south more so than east-west. Meaning, Kyiv's/Rus's cultural/historical legacy is far more tied to Byzantium (Greeks have their fingers in everything @noemon lol), the vikings, Lithuania/Poland, than it is to Moscow. In fact, Moscow's development is much more a consequence of the Mongols than anything that happened in Kyiv. IN short, this whole "Kyiv always belong to Moscow" stuff is mostly made up for imperialist/political reasons. Even if "Kyiv always belong to Moscow" though, not that Putin is justified in his war of imperialism anyway.

The history is irrelevant, every territory ever belonged to someone else in the past. Look at the US, it belonged to native Americans, and at some point to the English... does that mean a native American nation should be free to invade and, conquers and threaten with nuclear weapons the US? I know such nation does not exist at this time, but who knows.... what about the UK should they come and land their ships on boston and reclaim what once belonged to them? they have nukes too!
Ofcourse this is all nonsense. Ukraine is Ukraine, it belongs to ukranians. Ukranians that also speak Russian are still ukranians the same that all those people from Hileah that speak Spanish.
This is moronic claims from an aggressive imperialist dictator that has his days left in this planed already counted.
#15249133
We have the first actually tangible signs that the war is not going how Russia hoped now that Moscow is calling up 300,000 reservists. Obviously the people saying they would run out of ammunition in two weeks were full of shit, but you don't call up another 300k troops unless you feel that something needs to change. Similarly, the nuclear weapons talk from Putin indicates that he wants this to end.

Regarding the attacks on the Nordstream pipeline, I'm confident that it was done by eco-terrorists, here's why.

First, something few people have discussed is the number of attack sites. A government actor, having high confidence that their bombs would detonate, would only hit one or two sites because fewer attack sites reduces the risk of detection. A less experienced actor, fearing that their attack might fail, would hit multiple sites because this increases their chances of success.

Second, as many people have mentioned, Russia hitting their own pipeline (which they had already turned off) within enemy territory is unlikely. But referring to the number of attack sites again, if they did do it, they probably wouldn't hit multiple sites within enemy territory because that makes it far more likely they would be discovered. It's also never been their MO (in the cold war) to directly attack the west.

Third, it probably wasn't a western government (as some have argued) because if they wanted to blame it on Russia, they would do it somewhere that only Russia can hit, not in locations that are within range of western civilians with scuba diving licenses. It just doesn't strengthen the case for blaming Russia to do it this way, if they were going to false flag they would hit an area that Russians can hit but that non-state actors would have difficulty in reaching.
#15249134
WOW... Russia announces annexation, no surprise there.
He also declares the rapists, murderous horde of russian that died invading Ukraine "heroes".
Now he wants to have cease-fire and peace talks/negotiations. What focking asshole. I hit you on the face then I ask can we talk about avoiding violence? :knife:
#15249135
Oh look @Rancid , Russia HAS GROWN LARGER
Image

France is now Europe's 2nd largest stage, after Russia. :lol:

Huge relief operation just commenced around Liman to remove the NATO cockroaches infesting Donetsk. The fumigation will begin in earnest to secure all Russian territories from NATO occupation.

Image

And the war has just begun. If NATO does not submit Russia will continue until Ukraine is but a distant memory.
Image
#15249140
Russia is doing multi-stage escalatory casus belli. International law compliant declaration of war soon. Seethe and cope, NATO is occupying Russian clay, retreat or feel the thermonuclear burn.
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Last edited by Igor Antunov on 30 Sep 2022 15:22, edited 1 time in total.
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