I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 66 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15247766
annatar1914 wrote:There is a political aspect to what St. Paul called " the Mystery of Iniquity ".

Since Satan's kingdom on Earth is not in fact divided, all evil, all sin an all death, all ignorance and errors, tend to the building up of that infernal kingdom, the sinful structures of " spiritual wickedness in high places " .

So in short the political aspect of the building up of evil involves the mechanisms by which say, moral rot from certain people in country "A" can effect the strength of a popular false religion in country " B" perhaps. Or similar connections.

And yet since only a few perceptive persons can even see even a limited amount of such connections, the best policy from a concerned Orthodox Christian faced with the inevitable ineptitude and clumsy flailing about of confronting collective evil, is the striving for personal holiness. And collectively, an awareness of exactly what organized evil must be fought, when and how.

The important thing to remember in that latter societal conflict is that the organized evil will likely be presented as something good, because (given the nature of evil as a privation or distortion of something good) it will be for the most part exactly that. It will resemble the Truth in clever ways, but contain absurdities and facile lies. As an Orthodox Christian, I see this Organized Evil as a false religion apeing the true one, an entire way of life resembling almost as insult the true way of life, integral and complete.


You could even say that this is our role in a time like this... To not wield political power, but to wield power just in our own personal sphere, not even in terms of literally having followers, no, never like that, but only in terms of being there for a few different people to point like arrows to the truth.

There is no magical formula of words that changes someone's will and makes them repent. They have free will.

Even Jesus Christ, in the flesh, speaking the divine words of the Gospel, working miracles, could not get everyone to repent and follow Him. How can we expect to get a single person to do so through ourselves alone..?

It's a time for humility for us.

May my posting expereince on PoFo just teach me how to be less of a prideful loser! :p
#15248267
Verv wrote:You could even say that this is our role in a time like this... To not wield political power, but to wield power just in our own personal sphere, not even in terms of literally having followers, no, never like that, but only in terms of being there for a few different people to point like arrows to the truth.

There is no magical formula of words that changes someone's will and makes them repent. They have free will.

Even Jesus Christ, in the flesh, speaking the divine words of the Gospel, working miracles, could not get everyone to repent and follow Him. How can we expect to get a single person to do so through ourselves alone..?

It's a time for humility for us.

May my posting expereince on PoFo just teach me how to be less of a prideful loser! :p


@Verv , well said, my friend.

It can't be too hard to understand the " signs of the times", even if we are not as far towards the Eschaton as some might think.

I came across the story of king Alexander Mollosus of Epirus earlier today, he being the maternal uncle of both Alexander the Great and King Phyrrus of Epirus. Mollosus said of his nephew that he " warred against women " in the East, while he warred against real men in Italy of his day.

It's related to your commentary Verv. And to my reflection on " Barbarism". You see, we live in a very degenerate period of high civilization, and its almost impossible to have much more than a relatively small remnant to maintain Christianity with. The Church Fathers lived in a similar era of decadence i note...

Would a younger if perhaps more virile and ruder society be a stronger foundation for the true Christianity? I think so.
#15248541
This is true - I think brutal people are more humble because they understand the fragility of life, and its potential pointlessness, and thus they are open to moral answers and to Faith... But the characteristic of our society is that everyone has answers. So much so, with everyone being treated like a qualified expert, that we end up passing over the truth constantly, thinking ourselves the ultimate authorities.

But we are not.

BTW... Even if we are to be supporters of democratic and non-monarchist societies... I still admire the way that Mencken criticizes them.

At the root of Christianity should be a certain contempt for anything that is worldly. And so while a system might be in place that is even functioning well, worshiping the system, or believing it as something that will build some utopia or some such, is likewise very flawed.

Christians might have to be "political atheists" to a good degree.
#15248773
Verv wrote:This is true - I think brutal people are more humble because they understand the fragility of life, and its potential pointlessness, and thus they are open to moral answers and to Faith... But the characteristic of our society is that everyone has answers. So much so, with everyone being treated like a qualified expert, that we end up passing over the truth constantly, thinking ourselves the ultimate authorities.

But we are not.

BTW... Even if we are to be supporters of democratic and non-monarchist societies... I still admire the way that Mencken criticizes them.

At the root of Christianity should be a certain contempt for anything that is worldly. And so while a system might be in place that is even functioning well, worshiping the system, or believing it as something that will build some utopia or some such, is likewise very flawed.

Christians might have to be "political atheists" to a good degree.


@Verv :

I cannot disagree at all my friend. I will say that my political atheism is of a sort that what I see coming is a Dark Age , at least politically speaking. America will be run by a wealthy political dynasty, for profit, that will limit all real power to their family and those of their henchmen. Bonapartism/Paternalism. Opinions and political philosophies won't matter, to them or to the masses. But the forms will remain of the old republicanism. However to call it a Monarchy would be an insult to Royalty everywhere. At least now

It's just getting to the transitional stage now I believe, a time soon coming of billionaire warlords and private military contractors/mercenaries coming to the forefront, and of the collapse of the Westphalian nation State. Of city states and empires, of clans and tribes, ethno nationalism and religious revival. Monarchy as a deeper element of human government could revive and even dominate again, possibly.

We who came of age in the previous era are going to have to adapt politically as Christians, to navigate the return of the pre modern era I believe is already in formation.

Thinking maybe that the end of the Second Elizabethan era and the Coronation of King Charles III will be more pregnant with meaning than we realize.
#15249464
I think that it is probably too much to ask greatness of persons who are most likely transitory figures, even if possibly necessary ones. Later eras may wonder what the fuss was all about.

But on the other hand, perhaps there is a slight intuition among opponents of these people that they somewhat resemble (if only in a funhouse mirror way) other persons or rather archetypes which are truly more the horror and aberration to their political opponents.

Thus for one example, President Trump doesn't offend American Liberals so much as his caricature of a resemblance to what they imagine an reactionary American Royal Monarchy would look like. Other examples could be thought of to be sure. Such symbols and archetypes are like garlic to a vampire, or crosses and holy water. Hmm, themselves abhorrent to these people come to think of it.

Again, these individuals that find the transitional persons so disgusting, and perhaps quite rightly, would really have difficulty with real Monarchs of a bygone age, or of an age that is coming.
#15249474
annatar1914 wrote:I think that it is probably too much to ask greatness of persons who are most likely transitory figures, even if possibly necessary ones. Later eras may wonder what the fuss was all about.

But on the other hand, perhaps there is a slight intuition among opponents of these people that they somewhat resemble (if only in a funhouse mirror way) other persons or rather archetypes which are truly more the horror and aberration to their political opponents.

Thus for one example, President Trump doesn't offend American Liberals so much as his caricature of a resemblance to what they imagine an reactionary American Royal Monarchy would look like. Other examples could be thought of to be sure. Such symbols and archetypes are like garlic to a vampire, or crosses and holy water. Hmm, themselves abhorrent to these people come to think of it.

Again, these individuals that find the transitional persons so disgusting, and perhaps quite rightly, would really have difficulty with real Monarchs of a bygone age, or of an age that is coming.

Indeed. And there is a clear historical example of this - the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire. Many of the Roman elite could never adjust to the new dispensation for at least a couple of generations. This was one of, if not the most important reason why the rule of the first few emperors was so blood-soaked. Large sections of the Roman aristocracy kept conspiring against them.

There’s no reason to think the same thing wouldn’t happen in America after the fall of the Republic….
#15249521
Potemkin wrote:Indeed. And there is a clear historical example of this - the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire. Many of the Roman elite could never adjust to the new dispensation for at least a couple of generations. This was one of, if not the most important reason why the rule of the first few emperors was so blood-soaked. Large sections of the Roman aristocracy kept conspiring against them.

There’s no reason to think the same thing wouldn’t happen in America after the fall of the Republic….


@Potemkin :

One thing that strikes me about Emperors and Oligarchs is that most of what we Moderns " know" about certain Roman Emperors comes from their enemies. Like Suetonius and his " lives of the Caesars", for example.

I don't doubt that people can sometimes be bad but I do doubt the more crazy stories, such as Caligula making his horse Consul.
#15249522
annatar1914 wrote:@Potemkin :

One thing that strikes me about Emperors and Oligarchs is that most of what we Moderns " know" about certain Roman Emperors comes from their enemies. Like Suetonius and his " lives of the Caesars", for example.

I don't doubt that people can sometimes be bad but I do doubt the more crazy stories, such as Caligula making his horse Consul.

It’s not impossible; after all, Suetonius couldn’t just make shit up. But he could and did put his own ‘spin’ on those events. Instead of being merely an act of lunacy, Caligula may have been trying to pointedly and publicly insult and humiliate the Senate and the aristocracy generally. “My horse would make a better Consul than one of you lot!” sort of thing. When reading Suetonius, we must always bear in mind the animosity between the senatorial class and the first emperors. They mutually loathed, feared and hated each other, with good reason.
#15249684
Potemkin wrote:It’s not impossible; after all, Suetonius couldn’t just make shit up. But he could and did put his own ‘spin’ on those events. Instead of being merely an act of lunacy, Caligula may have been trying to pointedly and publicly insult and humiliate the Senate and the aristocracy generally. “My horse would make a better Consul than one of you lot!” sort of thing. When reading Suetonius, we must always bear in mind the animosity between the senatorial class and the first emperors. They mutually loathed, feared and hated each other, with good reason.


I think that throughout human history as organized polities existed, there has been a conflict between Monarchy as a principle and Oligarchy as a principle, and that in reality there are no other kinds of political arrangement than these two.

The Monarch either protects the people, or is the figurehead of the Oligarchy.
#15250655
Potemkin wrote:The novels of Dostoyevsky would be a good place to start.


I know him, I'd like to read Demons and Humiliated and Insulted sometime.
But I'm not a fan of his more existentialist stuff.

I'm looking for lesser known literature dealing with the difficult relationship between modern life and religion/faith. Not necessarily Christian.
#15250851
Potemkin wrote:The novels of Dostoyevsky would be a good place to start.


@Potemkin , @Reichstraten :

Dostoyevsky, yes absolutely him. He points to the key of History, and the very end of the Modern Age, the end of the West.
#15251231
Reichstraten wrote:@annatar1914

How is the west coming to an end?

I don't think there is such a thing as a key to history.


@Reichstraten , your second comment gives the reason why the West is coming to an end. Societies cannot be built up and appear on the scene on such thinking, but they sure can disappear from it.
#15251677
In a few months, a lot of people are going to feel pretty stupid and angry, and rightfully so. But a goodly number of them, raging against the world because of their sins, will settle on the familiar scapegoats, and war against them.

Many people will probably die, many of the rest will shamelessly live just as they did before.
#15252017
annatar1914 wrote:In a few months, a lot of people are going to feel pretty stupid and angry, and rightfully so. But a goodly number of them, raging against the world because of their sins, will settle on the familiar scapegoats, and war against them.

Many people will probably die, many of the rest will shamelessly live just as they did before.


And what follows after, upon much reflection, will be born out of World War 3. That is, the conflict in Syria and the Ukraine. Think Azovsty and ISIS, melded together. Jihadist Islam with an Aryan myth (much as the Turkic and Persian were preserved and placed themselves at the head of the " faithful"). I can easily see Germany and Europe as being ruled by such as these, hailing Napoleon and Hitler as " muslims" of a sort. Islamofascism is continental Europe's future.
#15253190
annatar1914 wrote:In a few months, a lot of people are going to feel pretty stupid and angry, and rightfully so. But a goodly number of them, raging against the world because of their sins, will settle on the familiar scapegoats, and war against them.

Many people will probably die, many of the rest will shamelessly live just as they did before.


@Potemkin , @Verv @Political Interest ,and others:

When I began thinking about this statement I made, I was wrapped deep not so much in recent conflicts, as in the multiple inversions of reality involved in being a certain kind of " Christian " in the West, and the Ultimate West, America (where everything goes to die, not just the setting sun...). This got me thinking about Columbus and his reasons for venturing beyond the Pillars of Hercules , out beyond what was considered the encircling Ocean of the ancients. The transgression and inversion that constitutes Modernity in distinction to the Pre Modern. Let's face it: the reasons why Columbus wanted to sail West, to bring about the end of the world, are still relevant and significant...

By the way, what is an American Indian, with Pre Columbian roots, to make of Modernity and being " Othered" on their own land? Is this the edge of the world to them as well? From what I know, they are stranger to the whole Narrative but have internalized it. Same likewise with the descendants of imported Slaves: what is their place, their ontological center? Is this part or whole of the reasons for conflict within New World societies?

It is indeed an irony and an inverted reality when you have American " Christians" who oddly appear to restore Jerusalem to the center of their Eschatological cosmos, but in practice make America and its iteration
of Western civilization the central axis around which their world turns.

But America, the entire New World, never appears to be the center of the cosmic drama of Monotheism, despite the attempts of Mormonism to make it so. Is it possible that to an true American, the only worldview that makes sense from a Modern perspective is the essentially Luciferian ( or Mormon) one? What is the true perception of space and time in this context of the Real, the Modern or the Pre Modern? What for example is the role of America in the mental topography of a devout Muslim from the Old World in the present day?

Is America being " Othered" in reaction along with the West as a whole out of some ontological necessity of universal human value and concern? Is this the reason for the significant antipathy between America and the Islamic Republic of Iran? China and Russia versus America? The shuddering fear and hysteria of recent years seems to bear it out.

Furthermore, is this the real root of the present day Syrian and Ukrainian conflict? How odd can it be, as another example, to have American troops in Syria in the manner that they are? And Russian, even, as an extension (because of Petrinism) of the Western world? It certainly appears that those old Western colonies, the American Republic, are now colonizing the whole World.

Even modern day Israel can be explained, but not these others, these problematic anomalies, from an Old World and Pre Modern perspective.

As a result I think that the rift being created by these present day conflicts is a permanent one, between East and West, North and South, Modern and restored Pre Modern, Barbarian and Civilization, because at some point these different views will have to be put into the crucible of what is true, the really real.

Either America becomes the center of a World Government and Planetary Civilization, the Culmination of Copernican and every other Modern Revolution, the " End of History ", or it doesn't.
#15253337
annatar1914 wrote:By the way, what is an American Indian, with Pre Columbian roots, to make of Modernity and being " Othered" on their own land? Is this the edge of the world to them as well? From what I know, they are stranger to the whole Narrative but have internalized it. Same likewise with the descendants of imported Slaves: what is their place, their ontological center? Is this part or whole of the reasons for conflict within New World societies?


It might be the case that their ontological center has to be divorced from their culture and sense of self... And this is maybe the essence of Christianity: there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but all, and in all, is Christ.

There are other contexts that are relevant to our reasoning, and we should not be ashamed of belonging to these categories, but to make these the center of our existence is wrong...

And I think that blacks, native Americans, and in the future, whites, will have to view their coming undone in the Americas as a natural process.

The native tribes of Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Mexico, etc. did not cease to exist even when the tribes no longer exist as a political entity or can even be said to have no 'pure' racial presence everywhere... They became Latinos. The American blacks that are now 20%-30% white on average did not cease to exist... and they will not cease to exist, nor will the whites, if they are integrated into la raza cosmica of the New World like the Natives. They exist merely in a new, different context, one that may not be relevant to people in the same way in 1000 years...

The Goths, the Gauls, the Anglos, the Saxons... They are gone, but people alive would still argue that they live in me. So, whatever the case may be, I think that they exist forever, and that they can simply recognize themselves as continuing in a different identity... Which isn't so abnormal. The Norwegian of five hundred years ago, even if racially identical, is not the Norwegian of the 21st century.

All identity is transient.

Except that which is religious or ideological.

So the Native shares the same identity that we do: a temporary racial/national/social identity that is less relevant than the identity of his Spirit.

It is indeed an irony and an inverted reality when you have American " Christians" who oddly appear to restore Jerusalem to the center of their Eschatological cosmos, but in practice make America and its iteration
of Western civilization the central axis around which their world turns.

But America, the entire New World, never appears to be the center of the cosmic drama of Monotheism, despite the attempts of Mormonism to make it so. Is it possible that to an true American, the only worldview that makes sense from a Modern perspective is the essentially Luciferian ( or Mormon) one? What is the true perception of space and time in this context of the Real, the Modern or the Pre Modern? What for example is the role of America in the mental topography of a devout Muslim from the Old World in the present day?

Is America being " Othered" in reaction along with the West as a whole out of some ontological necessity of universal human value and concern? Is this the reason for the significant antipathy between America and the Islamic Republic of Iran? China and Russia versus America? The shuddering fear and hysteria of recent years seems to bear it out.


I also desire to resolve my American identity with my ideology, since the American identity we are told is based off of the rebellion to the British and the classical liberaism that it enshrined... But we can imagine and interpret these things differently. It's possibel to be descended from dozens of Revolutionary war soldiers and also be descended from British loyalists or old world soldiers. It is possible to honor all your ancestors by reading the current situation correctly.

Maybe they actually just want one thing from you: forgiveness, sincerity, kindness; esteem them & love them, and don't bother too much with the difficult ideological considerations... We are talking about centuries of hindsight.. and problems that very much differ.

I try to think of it as... all sincere yearning for freedom & justice comes from the same ideological place and principles, and that even if we codify it all slightly different, if we maintain the same thrust, we are doing the right thing..!

Also...

If my descendant is a Marxist, or a Fascist, or an Anarchist, or some other wild future identity... and they are a Christian looking to the Cloud of Witnesses wondering how they can honor me (lol)... In such a scenario, I only care about their individual desires to be good Chrisitans, and the ideological differences... Well, what can I say about that? They are not prisoners to who I am... and they are living in a completely different time & place.

Of the hundreds of living descendants (Or even thousands or tens of thousands), there's probably a bunch of people doing better than us.... a bunch of people doing worse than us... What counts is just that we try to do our best. I won't judge others, but I will say... .I do not look at porn! I do not commit adultery! At least, for now, and I am thankfuL! So, I will choose to present what little Christian virtue I have achieved in contrast to my contemporaries insted of my ideology as my gift to my ancestors in the Cloud.

I realize that this was a very odd aside but it seems like it makes sense. if it doesn't, that is also OK. it's DUH INTERNET...

Furthermore, is this the real root of the present day Syrian and Ukrainian conflict? How odd can it be, as another example, to have American troops in Syria in the manner that they are? And Russian, even, as an extension (because of Petrinism) of the Western world? It certainly appears that those old Western colonies, the American Republic, are now colonizing the whole World.

Even modern day Israel can be explained, but not these others, these problematic anomalies, from an Old World and Pre Modern perspective.

As a result I think that the rift being created by these present day conflicts is a permanent one, between East and West, North and South, Modern and restored Pre Modern, Barbarian and Civilization, because at some point these different views will have to be put into the crucible of what is true, the really real.


I agree that it could be a pretty long rift... I think I will not elaborate any further, though, on these last points, as I already commented a lot and it is nearly lunch. I will treat myself to just considering these ideas and maybe responding later.
#15253489
@Verv , you said regarding the native and slave peoples of the New World that:

"It might be the case that their ontological center has to be divorced from their culture and sense of self... And this is maybe the essence of Christianity: there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but all, and in all, is Christ."

Yes, I am in total agreement with this. It reminds me of a thinker(I've forgotten who) that said that Slavery constituted a kind of Christianity for people when and where formal Christianity didn't or doesn't exist, myself strictly speaking of this as a traditional Orthodox Christian....

You said:

"There are other contexts that are relevant to our reasoning, and we should not be ashamed of belonging to these categories, but to make these the center of our existence is wrong... "

Sure, and even from the perspective of noticing it as yet another " divide and conquer " of the Elites, and at their head, the prince of this world.

"And I think that blacks, native Americans, and in the future, whites, will have to view their coming undone in the Americas as a natural process."

After all, we're on the same Colonial Plantation.

"The native tribes of Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Mexico, etc. did not cease to exist even when the tribes no longer exist as a political entity or can even be said to have no 'pure' racial presence everywhere... They became Latinos. The American blacks that are now 20%-30% white on average did not cease to exist... and they will not cease to exist, nor will the whites, if they are integrated into la raza cosmica of the New World like the Natives. They exist merely in a new, different context, one that may not be relevant to people in the same way in 1000 years... "

I agree with this as well. Some will not agree. My Mexico City people definitely agree, and it is almost a cornerstone of their national experience, attribution of meaning to the story with a tragic beginning .

"The Goths, the Gauls, the Anglos, the Saxons... They are gone, but people alive would still argue that they live in me. So, whatever the case may be, I think that they exist forever, and that they can simply recognize themselves as continuing in a different identity... Which isn't so abnormal. The Norwegian of five hundred years ago, even if racially identical, is not the Norwegian of the 21st century.

All identity is transient.

Except that which is religious or ideological.

So the Native shares the same identity that we do: a temporary racial/national/social identity that is less relevant than the identity of his Spirit. "

Eternal identity, yes.



"I also desire to resolve my American identity with my ideology, since the American identity we are told is based off of the rebellion to the British and the classical liberaism that it enshrined... But we can imagine and interpret these things differently. It's possibel to be descended from dozens of Revolutionary war soldiers and also be descended from British loyalists or old world soldiers. It is possible to honor all your ancestors by reading the current situation correctly.

Maybe they actually just want one thing from you: forgiveness, sincerity, kindness; esteem them & love them, and don't bother too much with the difficult ideological considerations... We are talking about centuries of hindsight.. and problems that very much differ.

I try to think of it as... all sincere yearning for freedom & justice comes from the same ideological place and principles, and that even if we codify it all slightly different, if we maintain the same thrust, we are doing the right thing..!

Also...

If my descendant is a Marxist, or a Fascist, or an Anarchist, or some other wild future identity... and they are a Christian looking to the Cloud of Witnesses wondering how they can honor me (lol)... In such a scenario, I only care about their individual desires to be good Chrisitans, and the ideological differences... Well, what can I say about that? They are not prisoners to who I am... and they are living in a completely different time & place.

Of the hundreds of living descendants (Or even thousands or tens of thousands), there's probably a bunch of people doing better than us.... a bunch of people doing worse than us... What counts is just that we try to do our best. I won't judge others, but I will say... .I do not look at porn! I do not commit adultery! At least, for now, and I am thankfuL! So, I will choose to present what little Christian virtue I have achieved in contrast to my contemporaries insted of my ideology as my gift to my ancestors in the Cloud.

I realize that this was a very odd aside but it seems like it makes sense. if it doesn't, that is also OK. it's DUH INTERNET..."

I try my best to look at this through the lens of salvation history, even if I tend to dwell perhaps overly much on the designs of the Enemy of the human race.

Now as to the present day conflicts, and the rifts they are producing, you said:



"I agree that it could be a pretty long rift... I think I will not elaborate any further, though, on these last points, as I already commented a lot and it is nearly lunch. I will treat myself to just considering these ideas and maybe responding later."

Watch the Iranian Islamic Revolution. It's not over.
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