Mass Anti-Covid Zero Protests in Many Chinese Cities - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15257309
Negotiator wrote:I hope the chinese finally come to their senses.

...

China cant do the eternal lockdown.



If the Chinese had senses to come to they won't be such a shithole in the first place.

And lockdown is, apparently, what they only know or want.
#15257312
Fasces wrote:I posted this on a different forum:



This has been confirmed on Weibo and QQ. They started doing it on CCTV for the Croatia-Canada game, and it went to Migu as of the Cameroon-Serbia game. As of the games last night (England-Wales, Iran-USA), all streaming services and main channels in China actively edit the stream to remove shots of crowds. They're replaced by shots of players/coaches.

It coincides with the protests. Before the protests, China was fine with showing the crowds at the Qatar World Cup. After they started, they clearly see this as something necessary to do. :eh: :roll:


I mean i get it, watching people without masks watching football while you get stuck at home after 1 case in the whole city. That is a perfect example why the policy is bad or flawed. Everyone used the policy when vaccine was not available and cases soared but now there are already a lot of vaccinated people along with people who got sick already so there is no use for such policy now. Cases are not gonna get out of control.

For all the shit that China vaccine gets, it still works, even though may be less efficient and same good side effects remain that you illness will be more mild even if you get sick after getting vaccinated.
#15257314
Patrickov wrote:You just don't know how far Chinese can go in putting potentially harmful stuff just to make the roll-out more efficient and to con more money (although to be fair, a good portion of those con artists don't know, but they also don't fucking care if they do)


Oh come on, majority of Chinese have been vaccinated and there is no massive die off of Chinese population. It was tested by both Chinese and foreign scientists and people. You don't die if you take Chinese vaccine. It is safe. How effective it is a different subject since it doesn't use the most advanced tech but otherwise its fine.
#15257315
JohnRawls wrote:Oh come on, majority of Chinese have been vaccinated and there is no massive die off of Chinese population. It was tested by both Chinese and foreign scientists and people. You don't die if you take Chinese vaccine. It is safe. How effective it is a different subject since it doesn't use the most advanced tech but otherwise its fine.


I am not saying it's proven bad, but given the track record it will do something bad some day.

My parents see vaccination a gamble (and not-that-effective, since there ARE 3-times-vaccinated-and-not-long-term-sick people still died of the Wuhan pneumonia), and I still consider myself vaccined under coercion.
#15257317
Patrickov wrote:I am not saying it's proven bad, but given the track record it will do something bad some day.

My parents see vaccination a gamble (and not-that-effective, since there ARE 3-times-vaccinated-and-not-long-term-sick people still died of the Wuhan pneumonia), and I still consider myself vaccined under coercion.


I have been 3 times vaccinated and even mixed the vaccines: Pfizer, Pfizer, Moderna. Never got sick (probably) but I did have a strange Covid similar case before Covid was a thing like in September/November of the year before anyone rung bells so I am not sure.
#15257319
JohnRawls wrote:I have been 3 times vaccinated and even mixed the vaccines: Pfizer, Pfizer, Moderna. Never got sick (probably) but I did have a strange Covid similar case before Covid was a thing like in September/November of the year before anyone rung bells so I am not sure.


I am also 3-times vaccined, but earlier this year my whole family fell sick, and my symptoms were more serious than my parents.
#15257365
Good article here: Amid lockdown protests, China remains the malevolent model for the globalist state

At a Liberal Party event in 2013, before becoming prime minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau was asked which other country he most admired. He responded: ‘There is a level of admiration I actually have for China. Their basic dictatorship is actually allowing them to turn their economy around on a dime’.
....
Dan Andrews, premier of Victoria state in Australia, is another authoritarian Sinophile. Under ‘Kim Jong Dan’, as he was dubbed by the resistance, Chinese instruction was taken in riot policing methods, and quasi-military anti-terrorist tactics were deployed against civilians who were merely attending freedom rallies in Melbourne.  

In the UK, China was praised for its uncompromising Zero Covid practices by Neil Ferguson, the modeller of doom at Imperial College, by SAGE member (and communist) Susan Michie, by Independent SAGE extremist Martin McKee, and by former Health Secretary (now Chancellor) Jeremy Hunt.  They all told us that China got it right.


Excuse my egotistical indulgence, but I can't help wondering if I might be the one responsible for introducing this term to the political lexicon. :)
Lockdown lovers have gone quiet now.
#15257372
For one thing , in Guangzhou , restrictions have been lifted.
Authorities have abruptly lifted Covid restrictions in the Chinese city of Guangzhou, where protesters scuffled with police on Tuesday night, as police searched for demonstrators in other cities and the country’s top security body called for a crackdown on hostile forces.... On Wednesday afternoon, authorities suddenly announced a lifting of lockdowns in about half of the districts across the southern city of Guangzhou. Official announcements told local officials to variously remove temporary control orders and to redesignate areas as low risk. They also announced an end to mass PCR testing.... China’s foreign ministry says rights and freedoms must be exercised within the framework of the law... National health officials said on Tuesday that China would respond to urgent concerns raised by the public and that Covid rules should be implemented more flexibly, according to each region’s conditions... Economists and health experts, however, warn that Beijing cannot relax controls that keep most travellers out of China until tens of millions of older people are vaccinated. They say that means zero-Covid controls might not end for another year. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/30/us-and-canada-urge-china-not-to-harm-zero-covid-protesters-amid-calls-for-crackdown
And also, to an extent, the lock down measures have been more medically effective, and not as economically disruptive as some might think.
The Zero Covid policy was actually not indefensible: Widely accepted numbers show that China, with 1.4 billion people, has suffered around 5,000 Covid deaths – which is about 800 times fewer per capita than the United States (and less than half the figure in Israel).

Yaqui Wang, a senior researcher at Human Rights Watch, argued that there was real anger at the economic consequences of the lockdowns – but while that is again doubtless true, the economic numbers (which one might actually question) show China’s economy growing at a more than 8% rate – which is lower than in the 2000s but higher than in recent years and, again, about 4 times higher than in the United States. https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/chinas-protests-are-not-just-about-covid/
The People's Republic of China faces hard choices going forward. I feel that its people should try to be considerate and bear with the the authorities , so far as they keep good faith with the well meaning concerns of the public, and that we foreigners should simply but out. What is going on in China, and how its government is handling things is an internal matter that shouldn't concern us. The powers that be will have to work things out with its people, in a measured manner. And even more so than public order, or even public health, public trust needs to be established, if the People's Republic is to endure.
The protests will put pressure on the regime to change its approach, but that may be easier said than done. China has been highly politically committed to its Covid policy, even as it has become less and less tenable. And the situation with its health system, population immunity and vaccine stocks is vastly different from ours, partly because of the choices it made earlier in the pandemic. China will have to face some form of living with Covid soon, and millions of lives – not to mention global economic stability – depend on how this happens. China was an early adopter of overwhelming measures to contain Covid. This involved recurrent lockdowns affecting millions, but also building isolation centres and hospitals very quickly, mass PCR testing, intensive contact tracing and surveillance, and mandatory masking. Some of the measures were incredibly draconian. Yet, despite the cost to civil liberties, it worked in stopping Covid-19 initially.

But then in 2021, several safe and effective vaccines were approved, which meant that widespread protection could be delivered to western populations. Take-up was remarkably high, and country after country, including maximum suppression countries such as New Zealand, Australia and South Korea, pivoted from containment to mass vaccination, access to antiviral therapies and living with Covid-19.

China, though, stayed with its strategy of elimination within its borders. The Chinese government did roll out its homegrown vaccine but took a different approach than the west. Its vaccination priority list focused on healthy young adults, and instead noted the side-effects of the vaccine to elderly groups. It didn’t promote the vaccine to elderly groups until November 2021, but by this time considerable vaccine scepticism had built up. Rising concerns about the low effectiveness of the non-mRNA Chinese vaccines were also a concern: studies indicated that protection faded fast and was undetectable after six months.


Recent reports suggest that only about 40% of over-80s have received a booster shot, and millions still remain unvaccinated. To put this in perspective, the overall booster rate was more than 90% in Japan while only 68% in China. And the Chinese government’s efforts to push vaccination have been met by a population used to zero-Covid messaging and having a false sense of security that they won’t ever be exposed to the virus, so why get vaccinated at all?

And population exposure has been minimal in China. It has had just under 1.5m infections in a population of 1.4 billion, and the national death toll is 5229. Compare this with England where the Financial Times estimates that more than 90% of the population has had Covid at least once. This hybrid wall of immunity in Britain has come at a major cost: the UK death rate stands at 2,400 per million, compared with just three deaths in a million in China.

All of this means that China’s population has a lower vaccination rate, with vaccines that appear less effective, than in most other countries. And many people don’t have any immunity gained from a previous infection either. If China gives up on containment and allows a large wave of infections, the country will take a huge loss of life given current vaccination levels: they are just too low in the most at-risk groups. This would overwhelm the already fragile Chinese healthcare system with too many patients who need care.

And the 2020 playbook isn’t working in 2022 in China, with a much more infectious version of the virus – Omicron – and a population fed up and tired of restrictions and constantly changing rules. Millions of businesses have had to shut down and the country has taken a major economic hit: the World Bank forecasts GDP growth in China of just 2.8%, behind the rest of the region’s average of 5.3%. This is the first time China’s GDP growth is less than its neighbours since 1990. Yet there are few signs the government will change tack for political and health system reasons.

Politically, the president, Xi Jinping, has projected a clear narrative of protecting China’s population through a zero-Covid policy and sees it as one of his successes. He defended the strategy vigorously at the recent Communist party congress, and any sudden policy shift may be seen as an admission of failure. And while there are increasing protests against restrictions, other parts of the country are calling for authorities to do everything to protect them from Covid. They’ve heard about the death toll in the western world and don’t want to be exposed to the virus.

The other concern of Chinese scientists and politicians is long Covid, which some feel has been underestimated in western countries. And you can understand this concern. An estimated 2 million people are suffering from long Covid in Britain and it is cited as one of the major reasons for the rising number of economically inactive people.


No matter what approach China takes, it needs to improve its vaccines. But to do this it will need access to mRNA technology, and this has been stuck at an impasse. Moderna has refused to transfer its technology to Chinese firms for manufacturing, instead eager to sell directly to a large market. China has instead worked to develop a homegrown mRNA vaccine but this has caused delays in rollout.

The countries that dealt most successfully with the pandemic, such as New Zealand, South Korea, Japan, Denmark and others, did it by successfully moving from containment in 2020 to mass vaccination and treatments in 2021 and 2022. This is the only sustainable exit from this pandemic and we’re likely to see China take this route eventually. It will need to get mRNA vaccines to the biggest priority groups quickly, and also bring an exhausted public along through what is likely to be a jarring shift in strategy – from no Covid at all, to Covid circulation with vaccine protection.

Let’s hope China makes this transition before it is forced, regardless of what the governments wants, to live with Covid before it is ready. China buckling under a wave of Covid would affect the entire world, not just disrupting economic stability but potentially creating new variants that could set progress back everywhere. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/28/china-abandon-zero-covid-protests-mass-vaccination
I myself admittedly do not know how material conditions are faring in the PRC. I do however, for comparison, know from this one couple in Vietnam how its Communist ruled government has been addressing the issue of the Covid-19 , and I will post just a few from their extensive list of videos on the subject, for those who might be interested in hearing their thoughts on the matter.
#15257390
JohnRawls wrote:I mean i get it, watching people without masks watching football while you get stuck at home after 1 case in the whole city. That is a perfect example why the policy is bad or flawed. Everyone used the policy when vaccine was not available and cases soared but now there are already a lot of vaccinated people along with people who got sick already so there is no use for such policy now. Cases are not gonna get out of control.

For all the shit that China vaccine gets, it still works, even though may be less efficient and same good side effects remain that you illness will be more mild even if you get sick after getting vaccinated.


Only in certain cities, mind. This is why we aren't seeing protests in Shandong or Qingdao - the local government policy makes sense.

You test frequently to use public spaces, if there's a case in your specific building (they share central air systems) you're locked down until you can be tested a few times. If there's enough cases in more than two or three buildings, then they'll lock down the community. If there's enough cases, they'll shut down (not lock down) a district/neighborhood in the city (close malls, schools and public transport, but you can leave your house and go grocery shopping, go to work, and get deliveries, etc). There hasn't been a city-wide lockdown in Qingdao since the last one ended in March 2020.

Meanwhile cities like Shanghai or Beijing get run by party yesmen who want to eventually become President so they go hard and stupid.
#15257539
Fasces wrote:Meanwhile cities like Shanghai or Beijing get run by party yesmen who want to eventually become President so they go hard and stupid.


The problem of this country / race is exactly that only hard and stupid people get to run it with unchecked power.
#15257701
@Rancid

PBS wrote:More Chinese cities eased anti-virus restrictions and police patrolled their streets Thursday as the government tried to defuse public anger over some of the world’s most stringent COVID measures and head off more protests. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/more ... e-protests


Cities are responding to the protests. We were planning on going skiing during Christmas because I have to do some stuff in Beijing anyway and they built a nice shiny Olympic village but with the lockdowns through November it looked like we would have to cancel. Good news though, because they just announced they're open and taking bookings so it looks like we'll be able to go, despite hundreds of active cases. Absolutely unimaginable a month ago, so it looks like the relaxation policies are for real.

I thought they would be relaxing covid-zero after the election anyway, just because the economy can't take much more (and because changing policy before an unprecedented third term for Xi would be seen as a public repudiation of his keystone policies, so wasn't rally on the table). I don't know if this is that, or if the protests are working, but protests do work in China - Beijing air is much cleaner these days because of air quality protests in the late 2000s, and my neighbors got a planned garbage incineration plant cancelled because of protests against having it within city limits a few years back.
#15257713
Maybe I should have translated a recent work by Cheng Lap or two.

In his view, Chinese protests are not about democracy and freedom, but essential part of the country's totalitarianism. He warns Hongkongers from treating them differently or, worse, trying to apply it as a tactic for Hong Kong.
#15257714
Generally protests within China are aimed at local and provincial governments, and appeal to the central government to step in and force changes. This actually reinforces legitimacy in the system and trust in the role of the central CPC as the "father" of Chinese society. They're very common, and often lead to meaningful change. They are an easy way for the central government to step in and score points, also.
#15257738
JohnRawls wrote:I have been 3 times vaccinated and even mixed the vaccines: Pfizer, Pfizer, Moderna. Never got sick (probably) but I did have a strange Covid similar case before Covid was a thing like in September/November of the year before anyone rung bells so I am not sure.

I had the same thing, in February 2019. The worst flu I ever had in my life, with severe respiratory problems, which lasted about three months. Then a year later, Covid-19 was suddenly a thing.... :eh:
#15257746
Potemkin wrote:I had the same thing, in February 2019. The worst flu I ever had in my life, with severe respiratory problems, which lasted about three months. Then a year later, Covid-19 was suddenly a thing.... :eh:


For me it was like in September and in January/February next year Covid became a thing.
#15257857
Potemkin wrote:I had the same thing, in February 2019. The worst flu I ever had in my life, with severe respiratory problems, which lasted about three months. Then a year later, Covid-19 was suddenly a thing.... :eh:

I don't think that it was necessarily Covid, but about a year or so before SARS CoV-2 was declared to have broken out in Wuhan, China, I came down with what I have now come to believe to have been a type of coronavirus , perhaps the type that is associated with causing a number of colds. I woke up with the worse sore throat I have ever had in my life, up to that point. It had felt as if Freddy Krueger had snuck up on me while I was asleep and clawed my neck from within. The only time before this that I had ever felt so much pain in my throat was immediately following a tonsillectomy , when I was around eight years old, and then later on when I had first contracted Covid. I went to the doctor that same day, and was tested for strep throat, via a throat culture, which came back negative. My doctor at the time told me that "all bets are off" as to what it could be, but he prescribed me an anti-biotic, and an antihistamine anyway, just to see if one or the other would do me any good. I have wondered somewhat if perhaps the pandemic hadn't actually started in China, in 2020, but rather elsewhere, possibly the United States, a year or two before it was publicly announced that the first cases were discovered. Sort of like how the so called "Spanish Flu" hadn't actually begun in Spain. https://www.history.com/news/1918-pandemic-spanish-flu-censorship
#15257864
A fair number of Chinese think its very likely that CoVid-19 began elsewhere and arrived in Wuhan during the October 2019 World Military Games where it hit a critical mass and was later identified as a new disease. Some athletes did report falling seriously ill during the event.

Taiwan News / Radio Free Asia wrote:According to a report by Radio Free Asia (RFA), French pentathlon world champion Elodie Clouvel said that when she and her boyfriend Valentin Belaud took part in the 2019 Military World Games in Wuhan in last October, many French athletes, including herself, fell ill. At the time they all assumed it to be the flu, but she said that some of them were quite sick.

She went on to say that she had recently visited a military doctor who told her she may have had coronavirus, as many on the French team had been ill at the same time, according to CNA.

The RFA report pointed out that former Italian fencing Olympian Matteo Tagliariol also said that when he participated in the Military World Games, he and five roommates all got sick with symptoms often seen in COVID-19 patients and experienced a long recovery time afterward. He said his fever and difficulty breathing continued even a week after returning home.


On alternative explanations for origins of covid, I rank this as at least as plausible as the lab leak theory. If I remember correctly, one criticism made of the animal origin theory is that the species of bat identified as the source is not endemic to Wuhan, but rather Myanmar and Yunnan - well, Myanmar sent a large contingent of athletes to this event and many Yunnanese would have traveled to participate as well.
#15257871
Fasces wrote:where it hit a critical mass and was later identified as a new disease.


But shouldn't it have hit critical mass earlier somewhere else? How could it not be noticed given how transmittable the disease is?

There was one Chinese doctor who tried to warn the public in early December, as I recall. Maybe it could have gone unnoticed if it started in a sparsely populated and rural region with relatively few carriers, Wuhan becoming the first metropolis affected.

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