We hit the debt ceiling thursday - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15263257
Istanbuller wrote:You just can't spend more you earn without printing more money each time.

Yes you can, it is called financing/borrowing.
Even responsible people can do it. The median US home sells for around 430k, while the median salary in the US household income is about 71k. So not even counting cars, student debts and some other large expenses, US consumers regularly get debt burdens that are many times their yearly income. It is equivalent to a country having many times their GDP. Governments have it a bit easier than individuals as governments typically have interest rates in their debts that are much lower than what individuals can obtain.

That is the main driver of inflation which led to economic destabilization.

Inflation itself is not bad. In fact, a small, controlled inflation is good for the economy and it also chips in on the government's debt, essentially reducing the debt every year. What we fear is hyperinflation.

The US government should default for good of American people.

You are talking nonsense. This is hostile anti-Americanism nonsense.

This will be the breaking point where the US and other major economies abandon their economic policies which do not work.

When your roof is made out of glass, you shouldn't be throwing stones to your neighbors.
#15263265
Istanbuller wrote:You just can't spend more you earn without printing more money each time. That is the main driver of inflation which led to economic destabilization.

The US government should default for good of American people. This will be the breaking point where the US and other major economies abandon their economic policies which do not work. Everyone will switch to libertarian economics which is scientific.

Yeah you can because it is related to the interest and ability to issue new debt and people willingness to buy it on top of growth. Your debt can be 20x your GDP theoretically if the interest is 0, you grow fast enough and buyers are
willing to purchase debt to finance their needs so you have free access to capital whatever it's needed. Also that debt is investment in to growth be it private or public investment so it speeds up growth which makes debt less problematic. At the end of the day the quality of those investments matter more than the debt and since we have been doing it for a long time, it is a model that has it hickups but works.

Inflation happens when that debt is used as helicopter money like the COVID assistance package to a large degree. It is way less inflationary or almost none inflationary when it is used as a investment which might drive industrial good prices up but that is not the same Inflation you are talking about right now as in food inflation or cloths etc
#15263266
JohnRawls wrote:
if the interest is 0, you grow fast enough and buyers are willing to purchase debt to finance their needs so you have free access to capital whatever it's needed.



If the interest is zero why would buyers *bother* to purchase government debt?

Any conceivable buy-in, as at below-zero rates, would be *political*, not return-seeking -- 'economic nationalism'.
#15263267
No, you can't. Borrowing is just paying higher debt in the future in exchange for spending your future earnings now. That means government will have to print tons of new money and raise taxes to meet its debt burden. It results in inflation and people get less paying becausue of rising taxes. People get poorer. This is what happens in a spending spree economy like Biden's economy.

Public finance is just like personal finance. No difference. If you still think you can spend more than you earn, then why don't you live like Elon Musk? Because you can't.
#15263268
Istanbuller wrote:

Public finance is just like personal finance. No difference.




You just said microeconomics is the same as macroeconomics.

They are not.

It's obvious you don't have a clue, First Rule of Holes, when you're in one, stop digging...
#15263289
Istanbuller wrote:No, you can't. Borrowing is just paying higher debt in the future in exchange for spending your future earnings now. That means government will have to print tons of new money and raise taxes to meet its debt burden. It results in inflation and people get less paying becausue of rising taxes. People get poorer. This is what happens in a spending spree economy like Biden's economy.

Public finance is just like personal finance. No difference. If you still think you can spend more than you earn, then why don't you live like Elon Musk? Because you can't.


Dude... How dare you bring inflation when your own country has one of the highest inflation in the world and your government is actively doing the OPPOSITE of common economic wisdom? Sorry, I'll take my advice from someone other than a fanatic.
#15263297
ckaihatsu wrote:If the interest is zero why would buyers *bother* to purchase government debt?

Any conceivable buy-in, as at below-zero rates, would be *political*, not return-seeking -- 'economic nationalism'.


Because it is the safest asset to store wealth and that is how it is used by banks and pension funds. This has been done for the last 80 years at the least. Banks and financial institutions put money in to them to keep it safe and loose money to profit not gained or inflation. It happens because of their strategies or because simply client asks them to do so.
#15263298
Istanbuller wrote:No, you can't. Borrowing is just paying higher debt in the future in exchange for spending your future earnings now. That means government will have to print tons of new money and raise taxes to meet its debt burden. It results in inflation and people get less paying becausue of rising taxes. People get poorer. This is what happens in a spending spree economy like Biden's economy.

Public finance is just like personal finance. No difference. If you still think you can spend more than you earn, then why don't you live like Elon Musk? Because you can't.


No. If you grow fast enough with low interest rate then it doesn't matter. In a way way simpler terms, that investment turns in to new models of iphones, research, factories and so on and if it is profitable then that debt doesn't matter. While it is obviously more complicated but the core idea is the same. The debt to gdp can go down if those investments are very profitable and you don't need to increase taxes at all. As I said, it all depends on the invest. As for inflation, it doesn't cause it if it is not helicopter money, at the very least in the same way as you want to portray it.
#15263310
Politicians (left and right), use the general public's ignorance on the national debt to instill them with fear for the purpose of manipulation. The latest incarnation of this, is the American right wing constantly likening the national debt to household credit debt. Which of course, is the incorrect way to view it. The people that fall for this shit, are the same morons that talk about "when China calls in it's debt, the US i fucked", which makes no fucking sense at all. :lol:
#15263314
Istanbuller wrote:No, you can't. Borrowing is just paying higher debt in the future in exchange for spending your future earnings now. That means government will have to print tons of new money and raise taxes to meet its debt burden. It results in inflation and people get less paying becausue of rising taxes. People get poorer. This is what happens in a spending spree economy like Biden's economy.

Public finance is just like personal finance. No difference. If you still think you can spend more than you earn, then why don't you live like Elon Musk? Because you can't.


Istanbuller, there is one huge difference between a nation like the US, UK, NZ, and Japan (but not nations in the EU & EZ) and all other entities (households, corps, states, provinces, cities, etc), which is the US can create more dollars either by printing them or by crediting bank accounts (electronic dollars). So, the US can always pay any bill it owes. All the other entities need to get dollars somehow to spend them.

This fact makes your assertion the nations and households are the same just wrong.

The UK, aka England, has ended every year since 1694 with a national debt. It increased in almost every one of those 323 years. Every graph of debt that you have seem hides the growth by plotting debt/GDP, so as the GDP grows form either growth or inflation this ratio falls. So, in most years the line on the graph goes down, while the actual debt goes up.

This fact proves that a nation can have a debt for hundreds of years and never need to pay it off.

Currently, only the Bank of Japan is holding interest rates on bond sales close to zero. All the others think that they need to raise interest rates to fight inflation by creating unemployment. This gives money to banks and rich people and takes it from everyone else. It also makes the interest rate on new bonds sold increase at least a little. All this is unnecessary, because the inflation is not being caused by too much money spent by the US and other nations. The San Fran FED put out a report that only (IIRC) 0.3% of the inflation then (about 1 to 2 years ago) was caused by covid spending. The rest was being caused by shortages of goods caused by covid and price gouging by corps with monopoly pricing power.

You just don't understand economics at the national level.
.
#15263328
It doesn't really matter if it is macro or micro level. There is scarcity problem in economics. It means you have limited resources no matter if it is a human being or a government. So you can't spend more than you earn. If you try to do, you are going to default. What is keeping you guys from understanding this reality?

I see some of you talk about investment. That is not the case in a spending spree economy. Because government wants you to spend all of your money by lowering interest rates. Capital accumulation just do not happen under this condition. You don't have capital to turn it into investment. Because governments mismanage people's saving via economic stimulus (manipulating interest rates and money supply). In result, govenrments print more and more money. It means more debt. In opposite case where government raise interest rates, businesses postpone their investment plans because borrowing cost is high. See, your proposition is not the part of solution. It is the part of problem.

The US should default on its debt. It will be a nice economic lesson for everyone. People will understand that diverting from economic realities has a devastating consequences. Tit for tat.
#15263329
Istanbuller wrote:It doesn't really matter if it is macro or micro level. There is scarcity problem in economics. It means you have limited resources no matter if it is a human being or a government. So you can't spend more than you earn. If you try to do, you are going to default. What is keeping you guys from understanding this reality?

I see some of you talk about investment. That is not the case in a spending spree economy. Because government wants you to spend all of your money by lowering interest rates. Capital accumulation just do not happen under this condition. You don't have capital to turn it into investment. Because governments mismanage people's saving via economic stimulus (manipulating interest rates and money supply). In result, govenrments print more and more money. It means more debt. In opposite case where government raise interest rates, businesses postpone their investment plans because borrowing cost is high. See, your proposition is not the part of solution. It is the part of problem.

The US should default on its debt.It will be a nice economic lesson for everyone. People will understand that diverting from economic realities has a devastating consequences. Tit for tat.


That is an idiotic idea. If the US defaulted on its debt, meaning it would never repay it; the result right off would be for 75% of the world's banks to go bankrupt, because they hold a lot of US bonds as safe assets.
OTOH, if you mean for the US to pay some bills a few days late, then how is that going to effect the future? It would just be for show. Nothing real would have changed.
There are other possible ways to default. The US could pay just 50%, 90% or 20%, etc. on maturity. This would also crash the world's economy.

BUT, THIS MIGHT BE YOUR GOAL. YOU MIGHT THINK THAT THIS CRASH WOULD BE GOOD FOR TURKEY.

2nd,
This will not happen because the rich control Congress and the Repub Party. The rich would lose money in a default, so it is very unlikely that the rich would let the Repubs force a default.

3rd,
Do you know that in the US and most advanced nations banks create money with every loan they make? That this money gets spent soon after the loan is made. That this money adds to the GDP. That this adds to the incomes of at least one someone, and likely 2 more. I have provided the link to the paper I base this on several times. You need to look it over. The 1st part can be skipped because it is a history of how various economic theories have felt about this. Later, it has the part about the 200K euro loan that was at the heart of the experiment.
The link => https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1914001070

So, it isn't just the US Gov. spending that adds to the money supply.

.
Last edited by Steve_American on 29 Jan 2023 09:46, edited 1 time in total.
#15263330
If the US defaulted on its debt, meaning it would never repay it; the result right off would be for 75% of the world's banks to go bankrupt, because they hold a lot of US bonds as safe assets.

This is the nicest part. So everyone will learn not to trust faux economic ideas anymore. You can't expect things to be nice for ever when you are caught cheating and perverting.

We need a revolution in minds that will completely change how people think. People will understand there is no other way than free market economy. The US default on its debt can be a breaking point for it.
#15263331
Istanbuller wrote:
We need a revolution in minds that will completely change how people think. People will understand there is no other way than free market economy. The US default on its debt can be a breaking point for it.



If the U.S. defaulted on its debt and the world suddenly lost confidence in the U.S. dollar, it wouldn't bode well for the markets because *some* kind of currency has to be generally accepted as the *standard* for economic interchange.

In other words if the markets *failed*, from market-failure, then -- surprise -- there wouldn't *be* any markets left, so then no economic *exchanges*.

Fortunately the world's civil society (such as it is) *isn't* logistically dependent on market exchanges. I've made efforts in the past to *model out* how society *could* handle production and distribution, all without resorting to market exchanges or *any* exchanges for that matter.


labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show
Image


https://web.archive.org/web/20201211050 ... ?p=2889338


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show
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#15263557
Istanbuller wrote:
I told you how bad planning is. Now you propose more central planning as a solution. It is comical. :lol:



Not as much as you would think -- your trepidation is from the ogre of *Stalinism*, but *that* was due to state-capitalism, or the nation-state governmental bureaucracy as the sole employer. (Meaning that the bureaucratic elite has its own organizational interest in *working* laborers to the same point of exploitation, and even exhaustion, as any capitalist employer anywhere.)

Contrarily, workers all over the world have a common interest over society's production of socially-necessary goods and services.

Here's from my communist-gift-economy-type model:



[T]he layout of *work roles* would be the 'bottom' of 'top-down' (though collectivized) social planning, and would be the 'top' of 'bottom-up' processes like individual self-determination.



https://web.archive.org/web/20201211050 ... ?p=2889338



---


Social Production Worldview

Spoiler: show
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#15263564
Another POV on will the Repud rich donors stop them from making the US default.

I still think that the non-banker rich will not make the US default
Besides there is a war going on. Creating economic chaos is not a good thing to do in wartime. So, I think that the Joint Chiefs will be whispering to Congress, "Don't let that happen.."



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#15263839
Halting all the government spending together can be the best way to fight the debt burden. You don't have to raise taxes when you cut spending. It sounds beautiful. This is how freedom and free market economy can prevail again in the US and around the world.

Set the state ablaze. Free minds and free markets.
#15263844
Istanbuller wrote:
Halting all the government spending together can be the best way to fight the debt burden. You don't have to raise taxes when you cut spending. It sounds beautiful. This is how freedom and free market economy can prevail again in the US and around the world.

Set the state ablaze. Free minds and free markets.



You're throwing out the baby with the bathwater on *that* one, since government spending for social services is critical to many people's lives:



Social programs in the United States are programs designed to ensure that the basic needs of the American population are met. Federal and state social programs include cash assistance, health insurance, food assistance, housing subsidies, energy and utilities subsidies, and education and childcare assistance.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_pr ... ted_States



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3-Dimensional Axes of Social Reality

Spoiler: show
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#15263854
Truth To Power wrote:
<stupid, irrelevant garbage snipped>



ckaihatsu wrote:
TTP, as soon as the new owner of the raw land



Truth To Power wrote:
So you agree that the raw land had to already be real estate and have exchange value before any labor was applied to it, and all your claims to the contrary were bald falsehoods contrived to preserve your false and evil beliefs. Good. About time.



No....


ckaihatsu wrote:
*steps foot* onto the raw land there will most likely be *some* portion of labor committed -- maybe a shed added, or a patch mowed free of vegetation, etc.



Truth To Power wrote:
Maybe there will, maybe there won't. The fact remains that the raw land is real estate and has value without any labor being applied to it.



No, raw land really *isn't* real estate, because only labor-developed *real estate* can host services, infrastructure, and community.


ckaihatsu wrote:
*That* counts as 'internal labor', or 'abstract labor' (Marx)



Truth To Power wrote:
The moment you attribute any statement to Marx, you are effectively stipulating that it is a stupid, evil lie.



ckaihatsu wrote:
-- and then it's no longer 'raw land' anymore, but real *real estate* at that point.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, you're just backsliding again. It indisputably had to have already been real estate and had value before it could have been bought by its new owner. You are merely trying to contrive some means to avoid knowing that fact because you have already realized that it proves your beliefs are false and evil.



(See the previous segment.)


ckaihatsu wrote:
Pre-*pricing*, land for-millions-of-years was not *private property*.



Truth To Power wrote:
But it was already usable and useful before any labor was applied to it, proving me objectively right and you objectively wrong, as always. Its combination of utility and scarcity guaranteed it had value, although no one was privileged to pocket it. Which proves the Labor Theory of Value and Marxism are objectively false.



There was no *commodity production* for all of that pre-historic time, so no '[exchange] value' in the sense of the *currency* that you're indicating.


ckaihatsu wrote:
If *anything* trades for astronomical sums it means that there's massive *price speculation* involved, over its exchange-value bid-up price *on paper*.



Truth To Power wrote:
No it doesn't. That is nothing but another bald fabrication on your part. If someone pays an astronomical price for something, it's because it has that much value, proving me objectively right and you and Marxism objectively wrong.



No, you're getting too caught-up in 'supply-and-demand'-type pricing, which doesn't indicate *production costs* at all.

If raw land is so overpriced, as you're indicating, the high price necessarily doesn't reflect the (labor) cost of *producing* the raw land into real-estate, because the raw land *hasn't* been developed into real estate, by definition -- it's *raw*.

So since raw land is *undeveloped* and *not* developed real estate, one has to ask why such non-productive raw land is *valued* so highly -- could it be *pure speculation* without any underlying productive process that pays wages -- ?

Why would you just *accept* this price speculation activity over raw land, and tout it as 'normal', when your line also *implicates* this kind of ownership as being too *separatist*, economically. ('Depriving other people', etc.)


---


ckaihatsu wrote:
You *should* be *objecting* to this, instead of *touting* it,



Truth To Power wrote:
I'm not "touting" it. I'm just stating the fact that it proves me objectively right and you and Marxism objectively wrong.



ckaihatsu wrote:
because such bidding wars



Truth To Power wrote:
There's no "bidding war." You made that up. The value of raw land is just how much prospective users think the opportunity it represents is worth before any labor is expended on it.



ckaihatsu wrote:
have the effect of making the parcel *too expensive* for most people's reach, pricing them out of its *use value* / utility -- which happens to be the main argument / premise of your geoist politics:



Truth To Power wrote:
No it isn't. That is just another bald fabrication on your part. When raw land trades for astronomical sums, proving you, the Labor Theory of Value and Marxism all objectively wrong, it indicates the opportunity is so valuable that most people can't utilize it effectively, and should not be depriving others of it because they can't afford to make just compensation to the community.



ckaihatsu wrote:
That's B.S.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, it is an indisputable fact of objective physical reality that you have to find some way of not knowing so that you can preserve your false and evil beliefs.



ckaihatsu wrote:
since any two initially similar parcels of land will differentiate themselves in due time according to what kind of *real estate* they're turned into, through investment in *labor*, for transforming the initially undeveloped plots of land, respectively.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's just more of your usual false, disingenuous and absurd Marxist excrement. Two similar parcels may or may not be improved in different ways to capitalize on the value they have before any labor is applied, and which proves your beliefs are false and evil.



Two similar (adjacent) parcels have *identical* exchange-value valuations, which is the entire *premise* of the scenario -- wage-labor applied differently will then produce different *valuations* in the respective parcels afterward.


Truth To Power wrote:
All you can ever do is deny self-evident and indisputable facts of objective physical reality. It's nothing but evil, despicable, nauseating filth, and you never offer anything else.



ckaihatsu wrote:
Are you *hearing* yourself speak -- ?



Truth To Power wrote:
Yes, I notice that I am identifying indisputable facts, and you are denying them because you have already realized that they prove your beliefs are false and evil.



ckaihatsu wrote:
'Public services', 'government infrastructure', 'community opportunities and amenities' *all* imply *labor* expended, in order to *provide* service, buildings, and institutional-type organizations.



Truth To Power wrote:
Yes, labor expended on nearby parcels, not on the raw land from which those advantages can be accessed, and whose exchange value proves Marxism is false and evil. And even in the total absence of such labor, the physical qualities nature provides at that location STILL give the raw land value, proving your beliefs are false and evil.



ckaihatsu wrote:
You can't really expect me to believe that services, infrastructure, and community are all going to exist on *raw land*, can you -- ?



Truth To Power wrote:
They can be ACCESSED FROM raw land, as you know very well, which gives the raw land greater value than its natural qualities alone, and again proves your beliefs are false and evil.



You're twisting and turning now, to try to posit some kind of 'reach over' from undeveloped raw land, to actual *real estate* that's been labor-developed, for normal social usage.


ckaihatsu wrote:
*Of course* basic labor will be used to *develop* the raw land so that such civic activities can take place in that location.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that is just another disingenuous evasion from you. The raw land FROM WHICH such advantages can be accessed gets value from labor expended elsewhere, not on that location, proving you wrong, your objections fallacious and disingenuous, and your beliefs false and evil. You can offer nothing but disingenuous, evil, despicable, disgusting filth.



(See the previous segment.)


ckaihatsu wrote:
It proves that *empirical*, *objective reality* is correct.



Truth To Power wrote:
And that Marxism, and your beliefs, are false and evil excrement.



ckaihatsu wrote:
Sure, but that's as a *saleable commodity*.



Truth To Power wrote:
Which proves you wrong and your beliefs false and evil.



ckaihatsu wrote:
In the laundromat there *is no* buying-and-selling of the machines themselves --



Truth To Power wrote:
What an absurd load of filth. How do you incorrectly imagine the machines got there, hmmmmm?



There's a distinction between *external* (market for machines), and *internal* (machines in laundromats providing automated rentier-type service to customers).


ckaihatsu wrote:
they're *rentier capital* assets,



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's just more stupid, disingenuous filth from you, as they provide access to opportunity that would not otherwise have been available. Assets that yield rent do not.



Laundromat washing and drying machines *are* collecting rent, like *any other* rentier-type asset or resource, like land / real estate, or whatever else.


ckaihatsu wrote:
providing automated services with only individual guesswork and industry groupthink used over pricing practices, which is hardly the 'invisible hand' of the 'free market' mechanism at work.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's more just false and stupid garbage from you with no basis in fact. The people who actually provide those machines measure the market and price their services accordingly. You just don't know anything about business or production. Or economics.



I'm saying that it's *onerous* for the initial investment of rentier capital to have to account for its *own* risk, and also for demographic *market* risk -- it's a *double hurdle*, especially if you think that customers would be proactively *shopping around* for convenient, *local* laundromats. It's more like local *monopolies* (balkanized fiefdoms for laundry), than effortless comparison-shopping over dozens of laundromats for the consumer / end-user who needs clean clothes for their profession.


--


Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's just more absurd garbage from you. As a customer, the cost of the machine is completely irrelevant to you. It doesn't matter if the owner bought it for $1M, won it in a poker game, or found it in his grandmother's attic, because the price of the service is determined by supply and demand, not production cost. That is the fact that proves the Labor Theory of Value is objectively false.



ckaihatsu wrote:
Again you're erroneously conflating the *asset value* (of the washing machine), with the asset's *service pricing*, or price to the customer for clean clothes.



Truth To Power wrote:
No I'm not. You are just makin' $#!+ up again. I am stating the fact that the two have nothing to do with each other.



That's *my* point, actually -- that you shouldn't *conflate* the two.

It's the *same washing machine*, but it's being valuated in *two different ways*, as for *any* (rentier) asset or resource. What does the acquisition 'value' (price) of an asset have to do with its revenue-collecting 'value', or rent-collecting 'durability' -- ?

Obviously the valuation here is a *gloss-over*, because [2] supply-and-demand service pricing to the end-user has *nothing* to do with the acquisition cost of the source asset, as you're clearly stating.

What would a professional *appraisal* of the laundry-machine asset *be*, before, and then *after* acquisition, and service -- ? If there's steady sales wouldn't the asset then be considered 'more valuable' compared to its initial *cost* value, and then how-the-hell did it suddenly *increase* in valuation, all without undergoing any positive physical *changes* within that service period -- ?


ckaihatsu wrote:
Sure, there's an overall larger 'market' for the laundering of clothes generally, but that varying market pricing in an area, at various locations, doesn't necessarily reflect a real-time-type market-pricing 'arena' over that same 'clothes cleaning' service pricing.



Truth To Power wrote:
Yes, of course it does.



ckaihatsu wrote:
In other words supply-and-demand doesn't really *apply* when the various respective *proprietors* of the laundromats are each doing their respective pricing according to their individual *investment capital* in their respective machines.



Truth To Power wrote:
But in fact they aren't. That is where you and Marx are objectively wrong. It couldn't matter less how much they spent on the machines. People will only pay the going rate. That proves your beliefs, and Marxism, are false and anti-economic.



ckaihatsu wrote:
They're looking for *returns*, a localized, circumscribed economic concern which is quite *removed* from the customer's perspective of 'finding competitive pricing in the area', as through the expected 'supply-and-demand' 'arena' of that area.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that is just more absurd, anti-economic Marxist tripe from you. The proprietor of the laundromat knows he has to provide the service at a competitive price, and it is up to him to make it profitable.



ckaihatsu wrote:
There's no *actual* competitive 'pricing arena' in the laundromat-area when there are no actual *commodities* being produced, for actual dynamic market competition over market share.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's just more of your stupid, anti-economic Marxist filth contrary to fact. It couldn't matter less if there is any physical commodity being produced. Marx just made up stupid $#!+ unrelated to economic fact, and you now have to refuse to know all facts in order to preserve your Marxist religious faith.



What I'm saying is that rentier-type assets and resources tend to be *locally geographically constrained*, so that they're *not portable* -- meaning that there really *isn't* any 'free-market' commercial environment going on, due to the physical constraints of local geography and the customer's own transaction costs -- transportation -- for *traversing* that physical geographic space, for any conceivable comparison-shopping over competitive laundry services.


ckaihatsu wrote:
Another way of putting it is that everyone is more-or-less *hostage* to the existing layout of laundry-service-providers, who are each *balkanized* from any conceivable 'consumer laundry market' *overall*, in the area.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's just more of your stupid, anti-economic Marxist filth contrary to fact. The laundromat proprietor responds to the market or he goes broke.



(See the previous segment.)


ckaihatsu wrote:
This can be generalized to *all* rentier-type assets and resources -- *all* such non-commodity-productive assets and resources are *feudal*-like, and quite *separate* from each other regarding any kind of conceivable dynamic 'economy' among them.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's just more of your stupid, anti-economic Marxist filth contrary to fact. Producer goods are not rentier assets because they provide productive advantages that would not otherwise have been available.



Producer goods / means-of-mass-industrial-production / equity capital, are not rentier assets because they provide *commodity production*, using wage labor, unlike rentier assets.


ckaihatsu wrote:
Uniqueness wins out, but makes for *very poor* economics, meaning real-world fulfillment of the everyday expectation for *dynamic*, competitive pricing over any given consumer requirement.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's just more of your stupid, anti-economic Marxist filth contrary to fact.



ckaihatsu wrote:
(Note *real estate* bubbles, for example, which are the prevailing of your cherished *supply-and-demand* dynamic, over the initial *cost-of-production* valuation, capital + labor, for pricing.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, that's just more of your stupid, anti-economic Marxist filth contrary to fact. There is no initial cost of production for land; it is provided by nature at no cost. It has value without labor or any other cost, proving you and Marx wrong. Expenditures on capital and labor have no effect on price, which is determined by supply and demand.



The costs of production tend to *carry through* to initial (and even sustained) market pricing of the commodity.

Market pricing of raw land is a *social convention* that lends itself to *market speculation* since there's no commodity-productive asset *underneath*.

Real estate land parcel pricing, as for sale for equity-capital development, will be initially determined by its *production cost* -- just as for *any other* commodity, like those that roll off the assembly line.


ckaihatsu wrote:
Consumer *proportion of income* also takes a hit, meaning that the going pricing is *too expensive* for the total use- / utility value provided to the end-user / consumer from the real estate rentier asset.)



Truth To Power wrote:
Producer goods like laundromat machines are not rentier assets



Laundromat machines *are* rentier assets because they don't effect *commodity production* -- they're necessarily, by-definition, *inputs* into the commodity-production process, meaning clean-clothes, food, transportation, etc., for workers to *get* to the workplace, to produce commodities for a wage.


Truth To Power wrote:
because they provide access to opportunity that would not otherwise have been available.



The washing or drying machine, though, is not really providing 'access to opportunity', because there's zero chance for returns on any conceivable *equity capital*.

The 'opportunity' isn't a *business* one, as you're implying, but rather it's simply a purchased automated service *input* to the customer's life and personal responsibilities of being employed.


Truth To Power wrote:
Fixed real estate improvements likewise. It is only the land that is a rentier asset because it would otherwise have been available. That is what distinguishes rent from the return to productive investment.



ckaihatsu wrote:
'Improvements', then, can be *either* equity capital, or rentier capital.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, because they would not otherwise have been available.



Again you're conflating *business* with *customer purchases* -- consumers are not buying 'opportunities' as much as they're having to spend money as overhead for the sake of tangible *job* opportunities, meaning the sustained costs of *finding employment*, and then of *being employed*.


ckaihatsu wrote:
It's actually an *argument*, not an inquiry



Truth To Power wrote:
No it's not. It's just absurd, disingenuous, anti-economic Marxist tripe intended to help you avoid knowing the facts that prove your beliefs are false and evil.



ckaihatsu wrote:
-- I'm saying that the material-item's exchange-value *depreciation* over time isn't intentionally matched to the item's own physical *degradation* / obsolescence.



Truth To Power wrote:
Intention has nothing to do with it. You are just makin' $#!+ up again.



(See the prior segment about how an inert object / rentier asset finds its value to spontaneously *change* over time without any corresponding change in its *physical composition*.)


ckaihatsu wrote:
Since the price and the quality-of-service *aren't* intentionally matched / indexed, it's clear that there's no actual *commodity* conferred -- the pricing is *ad-hoc*.



Truth To Power wrote:
That's what I told you at the outset: the investment in producer goods does not "confer" value on or pass value through to the product any more than the expenditure on labor. Price -- which reflects value -- is determined by supply and demand. THAT'S ALL.



It *does* though -- you're actually describing *rentier* assets and resources here, *not* producer-goods, or the means of mass industrial production / factories / workplaces.


material-economic exploitation

Spoiler: show
Image


Spoiler: show
Image



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ckaihatsu wrote:
You're saying 'supply-and-demand', but you haven't addressed the point about this that I've raised previously, about money having to do a physically-impossible *triple-duty* of valuating these three *different* economic components: [1] manufacture, [2] supply-and-demand, and [3] the consumer's own subjective use-value, or 'utility'.



viewtopic.php?p=15253101#p15253101



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ckaihatsu wrote:
With *commodity* production all of the fuss is over dynamic *per-item* commodity pricing, and ongoing market-share from it, etc. With *rentier*-type assets and resources the point is to *squeeze out* as much value as possible over time, for a better-return-on-the-unique-one-off-investment.



Truth To Power wrote:
No. In both cases, the owner simply charges what the market will bear, which is determined by supply and demand. The difference between rent collection privileges and producer goods is that the owner of the former is charging for what would otherwise have been available anyway.



ckaihatsu wrote:
(See the previous segment.)



Truth To Power wrote:
Where I demolished you again, as always.



ckaihatsu wrote:
See the previous segment.



Truth To Power wrote:
Demolished.



ckaihatsu wrote:
Also, you're resorting to a *technocratic* type of argument (of a determining elite of technical specialists) -- that's *statism* / plutocracy.



Truth To Power wrote:
No, I'm simply identifying the fact that although Marxists like you don't know anything about economics, business, or production, other people do.



*Or*:


ckaihatsu wrote:
You're saying 'supply-and-demand', but you haven't addressed the point about this that I've raised previously, about money having to do a physically-impossible *triple-duty* of valuating these three *different* economic components: [1] manufacture, [2] supply-and-demand, and [3] the consumer's own subjective use-value, or 'utility'.

viewtopic.php?p=15253101#p15253101



Truth To Power wrote:
No. There is nothing impossible about the medium of exchange serving also as unit of account and measure of value.



My whole *thesis* here, TTP, is that the idea of there being *one* value / valuation, *per product*, is strictly *impossible* -- because any given product is found to pass through *three* different-private-interest valuations, [1] cost of production, [2] market fluctuations, and [3] the consumer's *own* proportion of income (as for spending on rent).

It's a *fiction* that the capitalist-system valuation of 'price' can realistically *accommodate* those three disparate interests at once. Merely providing a *number* / valuation doesn't really address this empirical situation of objectively needing to balance-out among those three private parties, [1] equity capital, [2] financial speculation, and [3] the end-user, or consumer.



Moral difficulties

A single monetary value also denies the multiplicity of values which could be attributed to nature — non-monetary systems of cultural and social importance.[3]: 1228, 1232  The environment can express relations between generations as a sort of heritage. Livelihood, territorial rights and "sacredness" poorly translate into prices, and dividing a communal-social value — a forest, for instance — into private property rights can undermine the relations and identity of a community.[41]

Neoliberal policies have been implicated in greatly altered patterns of access and use. Markets generally deal poorly with issues of procedural fairness and equitable distribution, and critics see commodification as producing greater levels of inequality in power and participation while reinforcing existing vulnerabilities.[42][3]: 1232  Ecosystem benefits might be considered "normative public goods"[43] — even when commodified, there is a sense that individuals ought to not be excluded from access. When water privatization prices people out, for instance, a sense of use rights inspires protest.[1]: 128-9  While neoliberal approaches are often presented as neutral or objective, they disguise highly political approaches to resources and the interests and power of certain actors.[44]

Problematic consequences

Through commodification, natural entities and services become vehicles for the realization of profit,[45] subject to the pressures of the market where efficiency overrides other concerns.[46] With climate commodities, the profit motive incentivizes buyers and sellers to ignore the steady erosion of the climate mitigation goal.[47] Market exchange is "reason-blind,"[48] but without rational assessment of different strategies and the ecological importance of particular natural entities, commodification cannot effectively deliver on conservation.[49]

Harvey thus declares that there is something "inherently anti-ecological" about capitalist commodification.[50]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodification_of_nature



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ckaihatsu wrote:
No contention, but here you're implicitly acknowledging that:



Truth To Power wrote:
[AXIOM #230202 -- Land needs-to-be-produced (to turn it into the real estate commodity).]



Truth To Power wrote:
No, I am stating the indisputable facts that raw land CANNOT be produced; it is ALREADY real estate before any labor is expended on it; and its unimproved value PROVES you and Marxism are objectively wrong.



Are you a *conservationist* -- is that why you have such a profound sense of *protection* for 'raw land' -- ?

Again, you're missing the distinction between *undeveloped*, raw land, and *developed* land, also called 'real estate'.

Your line maintains that *government* is valuating initial, raw land by *diktat* -- instead of through *market* dynamics, presumably, for legal proprietary access -- but then the question remains: How would *you* resolve this empirical function of necessarily-monolithic government administration, over all land parcels, by unique geography, when all land parcels are currently in *private* hands with no obligation to sell.

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