The Police Murder of Tyre Nichols - Page 10 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15263895
wat0n wrote:So what you are saying is that the first Black mayor of Memphis did not try to combat systemic racism? The same one who ran under a racial equality platform? The same one who was reelected for 5 consecutive terms by an electorate that is solidly African American?

Is that what you're saying? Because I recall you claimed a small number of well-placed officials can dismantle systemic racism. Yet that seems exactly what he campaigned for and his constituents were happy with his work if he was elected for 5 terms in a row.


You argued that voters had a chance to deal with systemic racism by using the power of electing officials who want to get rid of it.

You then provided evidence that they elected a black mayor. Nothing in his record shows that he ever discussed systemic racism, especially on the campaign trail. Consequently, it is hard for you to support your claim that voters had an opportunity to address systemic racism through voting.

You made this argument as part of your claim why the murder of Mr. Nichols could not have been at least partly due to systemic racism: because demographics makes systemic racism impossible.

So, to tie all this back to the actual topic, your demographics argument seems to be wrong.

They likely thought it was their only way to provide some sort of defense of their actions. A defense they felt necessary because they realized they risked punishment.


No. Lying about it would “provide some sort of defense of their actions”.

Being recorded as concocting an obvious lie would not “provide some sort of defense of their actions”.

Why did they allow themselves to be recorded concocting an obvious lie?

Do you know for a fact they believe the City of Memphis is a systemically racist jurisdiction?


You argued that they did.

You even provided evidence in the form of an image from a Pew survey that backed this up.

So, unless you are now basing your argument on the exact opposite claim, it seems odd for you to challenge this.

If so, why make an excuse up? Cops didn't bother to do so during Jim Crow.


You are the one who said they made up an excuse.

Now, you gave an explanation for the excuse. What you have not explained is why they let themselves get recorded making up an obvious lie.

How do you know their state of mind was such that they maliciously believed they could get away with a beating because of systemic racism? Is that consistent with a poor attempt to cover for their actions?

Note the prosecution decided not to charge them for first degree murder.


They definitely believed they were getting away with it, as can be seen by their fistbumping, congratulating each other, and openly concocting a lie on camera.

And this is another thing that you need to explain.

Why did they allow themselves to be filmed acting like this?
#15263898
I think too many of us, left and right are still missing the fundamental issue here.

Policing in general fucking sucks in the US. From training to culture, it's all shit. Doesn't matter if the cop is a fucking zombie. Cop culture is trash, and it's time for the right to stop defending it, and it's time for the left to stop pinning everything wrong with policing on race.
#15263904
Pants-of-dog wrote:You argued that voters had a chance to deal with systemic racism by using the power of electing officials who want to get rid of it.

You then provided evidence that they elected a black mayor. Nothing in his record shows that he ever discussed systemic racism, especially on the campaign trail. Consequently, it is hard for you to support your claim that voters had an opportunity to address systemic racism through voting.

You made this argument as part of your claim why the murder of Mr. Nichols could not have been at least partly due to systemic racism: because demographics makes systemic racism impossible.

So, to tie all this back to the actual topic, your demographics argument seems to be wrong.


Wiki wrote:Willie Wilbert Herenton (born April 23, 1940) is an American politician and a Civil Rights leader. He was elected as the first elected African-American Mayor of Memphis, Tennessee.[1] He was subsequently re-elected to an unprecedented five consecutive terms.[2] During his tenure, Herenton worked to bridge the deep racial divide in Memphis. Under his leadership, the city experienced an economic boom that put it on solid financial footing, resulted in the redevelopment of downtown and the arrival of professional sports teams: the Memphis Grizzlies and Memphis Redbirds.[3]


Are you erasing the accomplishments of Black people in this country, in this case, the accomplishments of a civil rights activist who marched with MLK in running Memphis?

Pants-of-dog wrote:No. Lying about it would “provide some sort of defense of their actions”.

Being recorded as concocting an obvious lie would not “provide some sort of defense of their actions”.

Why did they allow themselves to be recorded concocting an obvious lie?


Pants-of-dog wrote:You are the one who said they made up an excuse.

Now, you gave an explanation for the excuse. What you have not explained is why they let themselves get recorded making up an obvious lie.


Pants-of-dog wrote:They definitely believed they were getting away with it, as can be seen by their fistbumping, congratulating each other, and openly concocting a lie on camera.

And this is another thing that you need to explain.

Why did they allow themselves to be filmed acting like this?


Because they must wear bodycams, and the beating was clearly not premeditated. You are acting as if it could have only been premeditated, but only when it suits you - when I point out premeditation wasn't established given they weren't charged for first degree murder, you then say it was not. If there's no premeditation then of course the whole thing will seem illogical. Had they reflected on how to use force, they wouldn't have unjustifiably beaten him.

Sounds like you're grasping at straws here.

Pants-of-dog wrote:You argued that they did.

You even provided evidence in the form of an image from a Pew survey that backed this up.

So, unless you are now basing your argument on the exact opposite claim, it seems odd for you to challenge this.


Actually, I only said it's why it is such an usual incident. One would expect African American cops to be more likely to share your narrative, but that doesn't mean all do. In fact, according to Pew only around 60% do.

So, this incident is unusual because 1) cops are roughly mirroring the overall US population and this African Americans represent ~1/7 of the force nationally, 2) most African American cops share your narrative regarding police brutality.
#15263909
wat0n wrote:Are you erasing the accomplishments of Black people in this country, in this case, the accomplishments of a civil rights activist who marched with MLK in running Memphis?


So you are not able to find anu evidence of him addressing systemic racism, thereby showing a lack of support for your demographics argument.

Because they must wear bodycams, and the beating was clearly not premeditated.


How does that explain why the murderers openly concocted a lie on camera?

You are acting as if it could have only been premeditated, but only when it suits you - when I point out premeditation wasn't established given they weren't charged for first degree murder, you then say it was not. If there's no premeditation then of course the whole thing will seem illogical. Had they reflected on how to use force, they wouldn't have unjustifiably beaten him.

Sounds like you're grasping at straws here.


You have failed to show how knowledge of systemic racism is the same as planning a crime.

Actually, I only said it's why it is such an usual incident. One would expect African American cops to be more likely to share your narrative, but that doesn't mean all do. In fact, according to Pew only around 60% do.

So, this incident is unusual because 1) cops are roughly mirroring the overall US population and this African Americans represent ~1/7 of the force nationally, 2) most African American cops share your narrative regarding police brutality.


Are the cops aware of systemic racism or not?

Yes or no?
#15263910
Pants-of-dog wrote:So you are not able to find anu evidence of him addressing systemic racism, thereby showing a lack of support for your demographics argument.


Being a civil rights activist, marching with MLK in the 1960s and getting fired over your activism is as far as it goes when it comes to campaigning against systemic racism. I can't think of any other clearer way to establish your opposition to it than that.

Pants-of-dog wrote:How does that explain why the murderers openly concocted a lie on camera?


Simple: They acted without thinking, then realized what they'd done, then tried to provide an excuse.

Pants-of-dog wrote:You have failed to show how knowledge of systemic racism is the same as planning a crime.


I think I did, if you want to claim systemic racism caused this crime.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Are the cops aware of systemic racism or not?

Yes or no?


Ask them if they believe their department is systemically racist or not. Why don't you prove they are aware of it?

It's you who's claiming that, after all.
#15263911
wat0n wrote:Being a civil rights activist, marching with MLK in the 1960s and getting fired over your activism is as far as it goes when it comes to campaigning against systemic racism. I can't think of any other clearer way to establish your opposition to it than that.


Okay.

As long as we can see that instead of actually addressing systemic racism through the ballot box, the best Memphis has been able to do is elect a black mayor who may or may not have addressed it.

This then does not support your claim that this cannot be systemic racism for demographic reasons.

Simple: They acted without thinking, then realized what they'd done, then tried to provide an excuse.


This makes no sense.

Who are they making an excuse for?

I think I did, if you want to claim systemic racism caused this crime.


No, because you have not explained how I, who have knowledge of systemic racism, am not guilty of planning on killing someone.

You have argued that the two are one and the same.

Prove it.

Ask them if they believe their department is systemically racist or not. Why don't you prove they are aware of it?

It's you who's claiming that, after all.


No, again, you claimed it.

Are you sticking with that claim or are you arguing they do not.

Please pick one.
#15263915
Pants-of-dog wrote:Okay.

As long as we can see that instead of actually addressing systemic racism through the ballot box, the best Memphis has been able to do is elect a black mayor who may or may not have addressed it.

This then does not support your claim that this cannot be systemic racism for demographic reasons.


Hold on. So you are saying that this guy, who's a civil rights activist, being a mayor did not matter when it comes to combating systemic racism?

Pants-of-dog wrote:This makes no sense.

Who are they making an excuse for?


As I said, prosecutors.

Pants-of-dog wrote:No, because you have not explained how I, who have knowledge of systemic racism, am not guilty of planning on killing someone.

You have argued that the two are one and the same.

Prove it.


I did not argue this. I said you haven't proven they were motivated by systemic racism. If they weren't, then systemic racism has nothing to do with this incident given the DA moved to investigate quickly and the city and PD didn't attempt a cover up.

Pants-of-dog wrote:No, again, you claimed it.

Are you sticking with that claim or are you arguing they do not.

Please pick one.


No, I did not claim that. I already explained it to you.

You claimed they were motivated by systemic racism, you prove that claim. As simple as that.
#15263916
wat0n wrote:Hold on. So you are saying that this guy, who's a civil rights activist, being a mayor did not matter when it comes to combating systemic racism?


No, I am pointing out that he never gave the voters a chance to address and nullify systemic racism through the ballot box, so your argument from demographics that this cannot be an incident of systemic racism fails.

As I said, prosecutors.


They needed an excuse for prosecutors.

Okay. So when they were recorded coming up with an obvious lie, they assumed the prosecutors would never see the footage?

I did not argue this. I said you haven't proven they were motivated by systemic racism. If they weren't, then systemic racism has nothing to do with this incident given the DA moved to investigate quickly and the city and PD didn't attempt a cover up.


You did argue that knowledge of systemic racism is premeditation.

Are you how withdrawing this argument yo made before?

No, I did not claim that. I already explained it to you.

You claimed they were motivated by systemic racism, you prove that claim. As simple as that.


Again, you argued that they this was probably not an episode of systemic racism since the cops were probably aware of racism and how it plays out in policing in the USA.

You are now arguing that/they could not have been aware of such racism since you incorrectly also believe this is premeditation.

Now, which one of these two things are you arguing?
#15263920
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, I am pointing out that he never gave the voters a chance to address and nullify systemic racism through the ballot box, so your argument from demographics that this cannot be an incident of systemic racism fails.


Of course he did. Indeed, he was elected with that kind of platform. It is no different from what the White DA has been doing, or what the current White mayor did by appointing the current police chief.

As such, I take you do in fact believe his activism was worthless. Is that because he's Black?

Pants-of-dog wrote:They needed an excuse for prosecutors.

Okay. So when they were recorded coming up with an obvious lie, they assumed the prosecutors would never see the footage?


No, if I had to guess they thought it could create a shadow of doubt.

Pants-of-dog wrote:You did argue that knowledge of systemic racism is premeditation.

Are you how withdrawing this argument yo made before?


That's not what I argued. I argued that beating someone because you think you'll get away with it due to institutional realities is premeditation. That's exactly what you claimed and have yet to prove.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, you argued that they this was probably not an episode of systemic racism since the cops were probably aware of racism and how it plays out in policing in the USA.

You are now arguing that/they could not have been aware of such racism since you incorrectly also believe this is premeditation.

Now, which one of these two things are you arguing?


See above.

It seems that, since you are running out of arguments, you have to set up strawmen to tear them down.
#15263928
Rancid wrote:I think too many of us, left and right are still missing the fundamental issue here.

Policing in general fucking sucks in the US. From training to culture, it's all shit. Doesn't matter if the cop is a fucking zombie. Cop culture is trash, and it's time for the right to stop defending it, and it's time for the left to stop pinning everything wrong with policing on race.

Left wing idiots like you don't care about it. This is not even a news on left wing outlets. All you talk about is Donald Trump. :lol:
#15263937
I think police need better education. They should even take some legal classes like they have in law school. They should study ethics, philosophy, learn more history and understand civil rights and legal justice. The problem is that you have too many young men in uniform who are pumped up on adrenaline and energy who do not use their brains and do NOT remember their training. They do NOT remember that they do not need to use deadly force on ALL people they see on the street. Are they asking if they have probable cause or just a hunch that the guy they're approaching should be arrested? And they should always make sure they have got the right guy, not just seizing whoever seems to be the perp. Check for identification...duh!
#15263939
wat0n wrote:Of course he did. Indeed, he was elected with that kind of platform. It is no different from what the White DA has been doing, or what the current White mayor did by appointing the current police chief.

As such, I take you do in fact believe his activism was worthless. Is that because he's Black?


Please show that systemic racism is mentioned in his platform.

If not, then the voters never had a chance to address it through the ballot box, and if that is the case, then your demographic argument is wrong.

No, if I had to guess they thought it could create a shadow of doubt.


Being caught in a lie, as they were when recorded, would not create a shadow of doubt, It would do the opposite and show that the murderers knowingly lied.

So either the cops thought prosecutors would not see the film or you are wrong.

That's not what I argued. I argued that beating someone because you think you'll get away with it due to institutional realities is premeditation. That's exactly what you claimed and have yet to prove.


Then you are arguing that the cops were not aware of systemic racism in policing.

This then directly contradicts your previous argument about how it cannot be systemic racism.

Are you now arguing that the cops did not know about systemic racism, and therefore you were incorrect when you claimed this could not be systemic racism because the cops would be aware of it?

See above.

It seems that, since you are running out of arguments, you have to set up strawmen to tear them down.


No.

I just refuted one of your arguments with one of your other arguments.
#15263942
Istanbuller wrote:Left wing idiots like you don't care about it


Anyone that claims me to be left wing is basically full of shit. :lol:
#15263945
Rancid wrote:I think too many of us, left and right are still missing the fundamental issue here.

Policing in general fucking sucks in the US. From training to culture, it's all shit. Doesn't matter if the cop is a fucking zombie. Cop culture is trash, and it's time for the right to stop defending it, and it's time for the left to stop pinning everything wrong with policing on race.


Yes, there is this.

The murder of Mr. Nichols is not just about systemic racism. Many people would point out that cops murder white people all the time. And they would be right.

This murder also happened because of a culture of police brutality that includes a culture of silence. The fact that this culture of police violence and silence works best when targeting black people, or poor people, or people with mental health issues, or LGBTQ+ people, or other marginalized communities and people should not surprise anyone.

But while cops in the USA will be far less likely to attack a rich white person, it would also not surprise anyone to hear about a cop in the USA doing that.

So, even the rich white people should be thanking the black, poor mentally ill, LGBTQ+ people who are addressing police brutality and silence as we speak.

——————-

@SpecialOlympian

Do you have avatars and signatures turned on? Weird.
#15263946
Pants-of-dog wrote:This murder also happened because of a culture of police brutality that includes a culture of silence.


This 100%, and the systemic racism component is a like an additional manifestation of this culture.

I guess what I'm saying is, we need ot handle the culture part first, then it will make the remaining system racism shit WAAAAAAAYY easier to correct.

Also, from a political perspective, focusing away from racism helps to not hurt the feelings of the "back the blue" MAGA types, that only back the blue if they don't get in the way of them being entitled pieces of shit (like Jan 6th). What I'm saying is, perhaps we need to take a more pragmatic approach to resolving the shit policing in America. I'm not saying there is no systemic racism, but I'm saying there are other more fundamental things we can work on, that will likely help in ending the systemic racism.
#15263951
Rancid wrote:This 100%, and the systemic racism component is a like an additional manifestation of this culture.

I guess what I'm saying is, we need ot handle the culture part first, then it will make the remaining system racism shit WAAAAAAAYY easier to correct.

Also, from a political perspective, focusing away from racism helps to not hurt the feelings of the "back the blue" MAGA types, that only back the blue if they don't get in the way of them being entitled pieces of shit (like Jan 6th). What I'm saying is, perhaps we need to take a more pragmatic approach to resolving the shit policing in America. I'm not saying there is no systemic racism, but I'm saying there are other more fundamental things we can work on, that will likely help in ending the systemic racism.


This reminds me of my fellow travellers who argue we need to solve capitalism before addressing racism.

While you and they may be correct, it is also true that civil rights activism in the USA has a large racial component to it, simply because of US history. So, it is inevitable that police brutality would be criticized from an anti-racism lens these days. Having said that, it would make sense for these folks to organise with the people opposing police brutality in general, as well as with other groups fighting police violence against their communities. Which they do, from my experience.

But the culture of violence and silence itself seems like something that would be hard to change from outside the police force. How would we do that?
#15263960
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please show that systemic racism is mentioned in his platform.

If not, then the voters never had a chance to address it through the ballot box, and if that is the case, then your demographic argument is wrong.


Concepts don't need to be explicitly mentioned in platforms to be addressed. It's just a matter of promising things such as a fair city government for all or to bridge racial gaps in the city to address the issue. Even more so in the case of Herenton, who's estimated to have commanded 99% of the African American vote in the city and whose campaign started with an event where he was the consensus nominee for mayor of the African American community of the city. Or am I supposed to believe the African American community of Memphis wouldn't want to be treated fairly by the city?

And yes, Herenton did run on a campaign that was based on lifting up the African American community of the city.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Being caught in a lie, as they were when recorded, would not create a shadow of doubt, It would do the opposite and show that the murderers knowingly lied.

So either the cops thought prosecutors would not see the film or you are wrong.


Or they didn't plan things as much.

Let's just see how contradictory your argument is: You claim they did not premeditate the beating of Tyre Nichols yet each of them had the foresight to think "gee, if I make an excuse then I'll be caught lying".

It makes no sense at all.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Then you are arguing that the cops were not aware of systemic racism in policing.

This then directly contradicts your previous argument about how it cannot be systemic racism.

Are you now arguing that the cops did not know about systemic racism, and therefore you were incorrect when you claimed this could not be systemic racism because the cops would be aware of it?


I'm still waiting for you to prove what I am expecting you to prove. Are you going to do so? Are you going to prove the cops beat up Tyre Nichols to death because they thought they could get away with it?

I already addressed this claim so I don't see a need to repeat myself.

Pants-of-dog wrote:No.

I just refuted one of your arguments with one of your other arguments.


Yes, you are. Also, it seems you believe that a survey saying most African American cops believe there is systemic racism in policing means all African American cops believe so. It's entirely possible these cops are in the minority who do not. It is up to you to prove otherwise, then explain how is it that it was a factor yet a beating the cops - by virtue of their training - are presumed to know can kill someone else was not premeditated.

Pants-of-dog wrote:This murder also happened because of a culture of police brutality that includes a culture of silence.


That kind of culture isn't exclusive to the police. I'd say it's common within government in general, regardless of the country.

And it's not just about corruption, in fact I'd say it's mostly not about corruption. Often it's simply about not wanting to do things differently and a major reason for government workers to unionize by the way.

Cops are obviously not an exception here, why should one expect them to?
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