Exit Brexit, Part Deux - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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User avatar
By ingliz
#15264034
noemon wrote:He's American

What difference does that make? The Americans and English come as a package. The British poodle's role in the EU was to further US interests.


:lol:
#15264040
ingliz wrote:What difference does that make? The Americans and English come as a package. The British poodle's role in the EU was to further US interests.


:lol:


It wasn't that simple honestly. While the meme is/was fun, it was wrong.
User avatar
By Beren
#15264041
ingliz wrote:What difference does that make?

The difference is that Americans, even including such high-profile ones as Fareed Zakaria, are basically unaware of the issue.
#15264050
Beren wrote:The difference is that Americans, even including such high-profile ones as Fareed Zakaria, are basically unaware of the issue.


@noemon I think that this will be interesting for you also.

I know people hate Thatcher but there is a story that Nemtsov liked to say after he had a chat with her. The story from his mouth went like:

1) Thatcher went to visit Russia after the collapse of the SU and Nemtsov was young at the time and was the major of Novgorod at the time if I am not mistaken. This was before his stint as the deputy prime minister.

2) So Thatcher came over to Novgorod and was walking around with Nemtsov and was asking a lot of random questions like how you deal with corruption, how you deal with the roads, how you deal with the civil service and so on.

3) She was quite old at the time so Nemtsov asked her, her baronesse Thatcher why do you even care about such things right now. We both know that majority of the people in UK dislike or hate you but you already have your legacy of transforming the UK and its economy from a sick man of Europe in to the world largest financial centre. So you are good historically even though the people might have a bad opinion of you.

4) And her answer was that she was curious about it because UK and Russia were similar in one main regard: They were both superpowers in decline and how is Russia handling its non-superpower status. She thought that UK managed to defeat its sickness in this regard and move forward while she thought that Russia would still struggle with this for the next 100 years which would be the cause of great tragedy both socially and economically.

Well, she wasn't wrong about Russia but she was wrong about the UK. This is the gist of the problem isn't it. As much as Thatcher and others tried to heal the wound, they weren't able to or people like Boris opened the wound again to get in to power. They got what they wanted in the end but at what cost?
#15264054
JohnRawls wrote:This is the gist of the problem isn't it. As much as Thatcher and others tried to heal the wound

Thatcher partially caused the problem actually.

Britain’s EU Journey: When Thatcher turned all euroskeptic

She also contributed a lot to the illusion that the UK and the US are actually partners ruling the world together, so many Brits must have felt a deepening integration with the EU somewhat downgrading.

ImageThatcher & Reagan: A Very Special Relationship
#15264056
Beren wrote:Thatcher partially caused the problem actually.

Britain’s EU Journey: When Thatcher turned all euroskeptic

She also contributed a lot to the illusion that the UK and the US are actually partners ruling the world together, so many Brits must have felt a deepening integration with the EU somewhat downgrading.

ImageThatcher & Reagan: A Very Special Relationship


It is written in 2020 with Thatcher would be dead so it is easy interpret it that way without her being here to say anything about it. Reality was probably less clear, as a superpower in decline or a superpower that lost its superpower status it is one of the ways for her to manage the situation by aligning economically to Europe and militarily to US. Loss of superpower status doesn't mean you automatically become irrelevant, just not as powerful as before.

Perhaps that was the idea and right now, people who want to use the wound are basically using it for their own personal political gain.
#15264057
JohnRawls wrote:Reality was probably less clear, as a superpower in decline or a superpower that lost its superpower status it is one of the ways for her to manage the situation by aligning economically to Europe and militarily to US. Loss of superpower status doesn't mean you automatically become irrelevant, just not as powerful as before.

In Thatcher's time the UK clearly hadn't been a superpower for a long time and it also wasn't really a powerful country. She also opposed German reunification, even though it was clearly inevitable by that time. She was a bitch regarding Europe and Tory bitchiness is largely her legacy.
#15264104
JohnRawls wrote:Well, she wasn't wrong about Russia but she was wrong about the UK. This is the gist of the problem isn't it. As much as Thatcher and others tried to heal the wound, they weren't able to or people like Boris opened the wound again to get in to power. They got what they wanted in the end but at what cost?

To them? No cost at all. Which is why they did it, I guess. And if it fucks up their country in the long term, well that's a small price to pay for their own personal glory, isn't it? :)
#15264106
Beren wrote:In Thatcher's time the UK clearly hadn't been a superpower for a long time and it also wasn't really a powerful country. She also opposed German reunification, even though it was clearly inevitable by that time. She was a bitch regarding Europe and Tory bitchiness is largely her legacy.


Yet, UK joined Europe under Thatcher. Her position can't be simply described as anti-Europe. One would argue that she either used some animosity for her political gain or to get a better deal with Europe or the more plausible answer here is that she did it for both reasons.

@Potemkin

Sure. But Johnson and May are not the only ones to blame. It is not like Blair didn't taunt with the idea to some degree. Cameron also didn't particularly want to do anything about it although he should have so the previous prime ministers are also to blame.
#15264123
JohnRawls wrote:UK joined Europe under Thatcher.

No, it didn't. The UK joined the EEC on 01.01.1973., while the Maastricht Treaty that established the EU was signed on 07.02.1992., whereas Thatcher was prime minister from 1979 to 1990, so she wasn't prime minister either when the UK joined the EEC or when the EU was established by the UK among other founders.

JohnRawls wrote:Her position can't be simply described as anti-Europe.

She was and still would be anti-Europe. She only supported free trade within Europe, which was due to her Libertarianism, not some sympathy for the European project at all, because she didn't have any anyway.
#15264143
They would lose nothing, other than their wounded pride.

They would keep the pound same way Sweden keeps the krona by refusing to fulfill the conditions.

All the other benefits they had they would keep under the excuse of being able to sell it to the public.
#15264149
Every founding MMer would agree with this.
In the modern fiat currency system, the size of the money supply matters. It can be increased in 2 ways, 1] By banks making loans, which adds to private debt levels and private debt can cause crashes like it did in the GFC/2008. Or 2] By the Gov. deficit spending. Increasing the supply of money is necessary for 2 reasons; a] because people want to save, and savings are not lent back into the economy by banks. And b] most nations have a trade deficit. This money leaves the nation to buy stuff. Either way the money must somehow be replaced in the economy.
. . This can happen in a few ways. 1] Foreigners can invest it back into the nation, but when they make a profit, it can leave the nation, which is money leaving. 2] Foreigners can buy real estate in the nation, but this is bad for a few reasons. 3] Foreigners can buy the nation's bonds to "fund" the deficit. 4] Foreign banks can lend it back into the nation to provide mortgages, for example. The experiences of Greece show the problem with this solution. It seems none of these are sustainable.
. . . If the nation has a trade deficit, like the US and UK, it needs to keep its supply of money high enough to keep the economy going. MMTers assert that the money saved must be replaced, and that the money lost with the trade deficit must also be replaced.
. . . All prof. MMTers were all for Brexit, because of the neo-liberal rules of the EU that limit deficits and the debt/GDP ratio. It is obvious when seen through the MMT lens, that these rules will soon stop every nation that has a trade deficit from having the Gov. deficit spend enough to replace the lost money. It was also obvious to all MMTers that when the 1st crisis hit (the GFC/2008) the nations of the EU would not be able to do what FDR did to solve the crisis. So, they would be stagnant. This what did happen. Many EU nations still have high unemployment and esp, youth unemployment. They never recovered.

So, MMTers assert that the problem for the UK is that its people believe the sound money neo-liberal myth. So, both parties are unable to deficit spend to replace the Pounds that are being lost every day due to the trade deficit and Pounds being saved by the few with disposable income they can save. So, the economy is stagnant. The nation can't spend to rebuild the NHS, and improve infrastructure. So, the Gov. can't increase the wages of its civil service workers to increase incomes, to increase sales, to increase the GDP, to increase tax revenue, etc.
. . . The situation is much like a nation 100 years ago when there was the gold standard and a nation had a trade deficit. It was slowly losing its gold supply. This would be felt sooner or later as constraining the economy.

Of course, this is the MMT view of things economic. And almost all of you here reject the MMT view. I hope this convinces a few of you to actually look closely at what MMTers themselves say and not believe the disinformation (lies) that MS economists tell you about what MMTers say.
.
User avatar
By noemon
#15264150
Sound money is neither 'neo-liberal' nor a 'myth'.

Debasing your currency to infinity results to having to carry millions in your pocket to buy a loaf of bread. That's just an undeniable & observable fact with millions of examples, a fact that MMTers simply cannot run away from.

The same way MMTers were wrong about their assumptions on Brexit, are also wrong about everything they say.

Truss's plan was okay, the problems with her budget were not the budget but its implementation:

1) She did not say where the money would come from and she excluded the Office of Budget Responsibility from authorising her Budget, for the first time in history since its creation.
2) The budget did not promote productivity which is where the UK is lacking, so plenty of people concluded that her splurge would be a band aid that would exacerbate things later on and not without merit.
#15264159
We would not qualify for membership due to the 3% deficit rule.

Even if we would, it would deny us an independent trade policy, we'd have to rejoin the atrocious Common Agricultural Policy, adopt the racist system of free movement based on nationality, not aptitude.

We'd have to sign away our fishing grounds again and allow unfettered access to EU super trawlers.

We'd have to go back into the Common Security and Defence Policy.

The European Arrest Warrant (which is a flawed policy, what's legal in some countries, isn't in others).

There are vast wage disparities across the union which would cause wage compression here, where we're already struggling with inflation.

I do not want to go back.
User avatar
By Beren
#15264163
We already have vinnydell, so the whole misery would start again and Brexiteers would finally win again as well. I wonder if Corbynites would hijack Labour again, for example, to cripple it until Brexit gets done.
#15264188
Beren wrote:We already have vinnydell, so the whole misery would start again and Brexiteers would finally win again as well. I wonder if Corbynites would hijack Labour again, for example, to cripple it until Brexit gets done.

Image
By late
#15264192
Potemkin wrote:
Image




I forget his name, but he's something on a stick.

He came here, prob to deliver a message from Putin, at one of those radical Right confabs.

I then looked him up, he's one of those Brits that talks about family values, but never goes home. That's prob how Putin got his hooks in him.

Speaking of Putin, I have long suspected he hasn't got the 'credit' he deserves for pushing Brexit.

Edit: Wait, it's Nigel, isn't it. Nigel Farrage?
#15264195
Potemkin wrote:Image


Potemkin, that man looks like a total fool.

What is going to happen to the UK eh? You got the worst fucking leaders there...people like May, Johnson, that other woman who's last name I forgot that lasted almost nothing in 10 Downing Street before giving up quickly. It seems like a sinking boat and all the rats jumping off the sinking political boat to save themselves...from disaster.

People terrified of recessions. Bad salaries, teachers and NHS workers hitting the streets in protest...how is the UK going to survive all the problems with no one willing to row the boat downstream or upstream eh?

How anyone can even think that being an ex-empire with bad leadership is a great thing to be? Obviously don't you realize that unless you kept all those ill-gotten gains during the Empire days....and reinvested it in the regular working and middle classes, and now you got a nation nearing bankruptcy and austerity and crap problems left and right?

I say invade the British Museum and reclaim the lost treasures of past civilizations and nationalities. Leave in the place of all those stolen artifacts, a bunch of junk plastics from the PRC....the legacy of wanting cheap Chinese labor...here....your true treasures.

You got to laugh at this situation Pote! :lol:
#15264196
Tainari88 wrote:Potemkin, that man looks like a total fool.

He is a total fool. Just like most 'elite' or upper-middle-class British people. The working classes are the only people in this country who have any sense, but nobody listens to them and they almost never end up in leadership positions. Not even in the 'Labour' Party. Lol.

What is going to happen to the UK eh? You got the worst fucking leaders there...people like May, Johnson, that other woman who's last name I forgot that lasted almost nothing in 10 Downing Street before giving up quickly. It seems like a sinking boat and all the rats jumping off the sinking political boat to save themselves...from disaster.

No sensible person wants to be the British Prime Minister, or even a Cabinet minister. Which is why we are currently being led by people who are not sensible.

People terrified of recessions. Bad salaries, teachers and NHS workers hitting the streets in protest...how is the UK going to survive all the problems with no one willing to row the boat downstream or upstream eh?

"We found power lying in the street, and we simply picked it up." - Vladimir Lenin. The current abdication of power by the ruling class is both a problem and a possible opportunity, querida....

How anyone can even think that being an ex-empire with bad leadership is a great thing to be? Obviously don't you realize that unless you kept all those ill-gotten gains during the Empire days....and reinvested it in the regular working and middle classes, and now you got a nation nearing bankruptcy and austerity and crap problems left and right?

It can be argued that Britain has been a basket case since the Suez Crisis of the 1950s, when our 'Empire' was revealed for what it was - a flimsy, ramshackle relic of the past, bankrupt financially, militarily and morally. Our entire history since then has been a search for something to make ourselves relevant again. We thought the EU would be the answer, but Brexit has scuppered that. What now...? :?:

I say invade the British Museum and reclaim the lost treasures of past civilizations and nationalities. Leave in the place of all those stolen artifacts, a bunch of junk plastics from the PRC....the legacy of wanting cheap Chinese labor...here....your true treasures.

You got to laugh at this situation Pote! :lol:

Indeed querida! This is why the British have such a great sense of humour - if we couldn't laugh at ourselves, then how could we survive? :lol:
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