[Tainari88]

I mostly agree with you. Racism has a lot to do with how different brown countries get treated than, say, Europe.

Honestly, I don't know who or what Boricuas is. But because I am familiar with the history of the Americas, I don't really see a solution. You would like us to act intelligently, the reality is we're sliding towards chaos, and the closer you are, the less likely you are to enjoy it..

The big challenge is overcoming fear Late. The USA is a very powerful government with very greedy elites with the power to kill many people, invent lies about the reasons for it, and many of the public in the USA believe all the lies or do not really know what to do about it.

They do not even know much about the places they have taken over and the people they have stripped of basic human rights. Boricuas means Puerto Ricans in the original Taino language of the island. It comes from the Taino word for the island of Puerto Rico. Borinquen or Boriken. Bo-ri-ken. Land of the the brave and noble Lord. The cordillera central is cloud filled and it is a rainforest. It is where the Tainos thought the Noble Lord lived. You had to be brave and noble to survive the hurricanes and the fury of nature at its fiercest in the Caribbean islands. You did not know that did you Late?

The people who take over and do not give a damn about the conquered never know much about that culture. They only know about the lies they write about all day. They never like taking responsibility for the devastation they cause because they are people who's only real value is wanting power and greed. They think that is the way it is done in the world. Who gives a shit about those Indians, or those Blacks or those workers, or those women, or those children, or the land or the rights of those living beings....what counts is MY POWER, my MONEY, my greed. ME.

In the end they fail to realize what keeps this world together is LOVE. Caring. Solidarity. Empathy, and respect. And being able to share with everyone and with real commitment.

Everything has a solution. All it requires is for you to believe in the power of human communities to change and to do what is necessary to make things better. Work hard for a positive change. Do not tolerate greed and abuse as the only way to treat other nations or other people. Choose good values.

Once you do that? A real solution is never far away.

[XogGyux]

@XogGyux colonialism is a by-product of Empires. Again, you have colonies because you want something to extract from them.

Both colonialism and empires are in turn a product of human behavior. Human behavior evolves very slowly, in the order of centuries to millennia. And every time there is a major disruption in collective human society (think french revolution, Bolsheviks's revolution) a great deal of human suffering and terror follows. I am not aware of any major social restructuring that occurred both fast and peaceful... it is always either slow and (hopefully) peaceful or fast and violent. I'll take my chances with the slow process, thank you very much.

Xoggyux all human history is about learning lessons.

At the individual level, humans do learn (obviously) but we take forever to learn. How many of your friends go from boyfriend to boyfriend or girlfriend to girlfriend just to end up with a smilar crappy individual? How many say "this is the last drink I'll ever have" or "I am quitting smoking" or "I am done gambling" or "This time I will listent to my accountant"? And that is at the individual level... As a society? Well, let's just say it is far slower.

And it is about change.

Change for the sake of change is meaningless and potentially dangerous. Look at Cuba... they got their "change"... and now they are fucked, prisoners of their own island, their own government, slowly sinking into misery. I don't want just change, I want improvement.

Not conforming to what the powerful would like.

This sort king or queen or some sort of master manipulator narrative is not accurate. While there is certainly a lot of influence via advertisement, campaigns, etc... the US is a democracy. We are all "the powerful", very dilute power, but nonetheless.

ou will be lied to by the media, you will be lied to by politicians and by corporations, and any other actor or force in the society that does not like change because it means they will lose either money or power in that process.

That is not news, this has been a constant of humanity since its inception. Lying is popular because lying about something is cheaper and easier than actually doing or making happen, that thing that you lied about. But again... you don't truly have an alternative to this system of lying do you? The US lies, but so dues the UK, and so does Russia and China, and Cuba and yes... even Puerto rico. Do we like it? no, do we have any other choice? Also no. I don't like that the world has murderes and rapists either... but they do exist.

Change is coming at a rapid pace.

I hope for our sake that you are wrong. In history, this sort of rapid change = pain and suffering.

Again, you have colonies because you want something to extract from them.

Ok I'll buy your point. What is the something that the US is extracting from puerto rico?

Things got to move along XogGyux, you might believe the USA is a nation of fair laws and justice or you might believe it is the poisoned water but it is better than no water at all.

Fair is a relative term. The US is more fair than many other countries for instance. Would you disagree? Do you think you would have a better life in Iran? or perhaps in North Korea? Do you think those system are more fair? What about china? or India? or Russia? or pretty much all of Africa? Are those countries "fair"? In fact, between China, India, China, etc... you have more than half the population of the whole world that is living in systems that are FAR more unfair, FAR more violent, FAR more injust. Yeah, perhaps Canada and most of western Europe, oceania and Scandinavia can give the US a lesson or two... but even those people take cues and refuge (military safety) from the US. Is it perfect? Absolutely not... but it is improving? Yes... slowly.

https://youtu.be/21AybYI0VNs

@Tainari88
I am receiving some mixed signals here. Joining the US and Being an independent nation is diametrically different goals. What is it that you want?
This video is not truly providing any new information or perspective. I agree that PR should become the next state. I think it would be better for PR, it would access to more resources, it would solidify PR's stance, would give you every other right that you missing. The video also references the reality of why it is hard... it is hard because of politics... the republicans don't want to add what they perceive to be blue votes... and if the plate was flipped, if PR were perceived to side with republicans... then the democrats wouldn't want that either. It is simple, dirty politics. Not a bizarre subjugation scheme.
Question for you. Which one do you want? Independence vs joining?

I think your defense of colonization is really badly thought out at best.

I am not defending anything. First, PR is not truly a colony, but thats neither here nor there.
I don't have a strong preference as I don't really have any stake on the matter either way. From a pragmatic outsider's point of view, I think becoming a state is both more likely and better for Puerto Rico. I don't think puerto rico will ever be independent, but even if it becomes independent... I don't think it will be better for you. Like I have said, puerto rico is ultimately dependent for the most basic necessities, food, energy, etc. Any sort of dispute divorce from the US will doom Puerto Rico for centuries, of that I am as certain as I can possibly be. An amicable independence is theoretically possible, but I doubt it... because as long as you have a ~50/50 ish split... there is going to be a lot of angry people. Not to mention, more "puerto ricans"/decendants live outside of puerto rico than in the island, do they get a say on the matter?
I am very skeptical about independence. Puerto rico can try it... but if something goes 1 hair short of perfect, it will be a disaster that will doom puerto rico forever. And if something is constant about all political leaders in the world (be it in the US, Spain, France, Cuba, Canada, South Africa, Japan, etc...) is that they are all liars, self-serving, incompetents, so you can also bet they will screw up PR as they screw up everything else.

Especially from an immigrant doctor that lives in Florida.

Precisely because of this I am sharing my opinion.
There is a quote from Jose Marti that says "Vivi en el monstruo y le conozco las entranas" (roughly translate I lived inside the monster and I know it's guts). Cuba is an example of "the path not taken" compared to puerto rico. I can hands down tell you I would have preferred to have been born in PR than Cuba. You think you want something, but I suspect you don't understand what it comes with, the dressing of the dish you are ordering comes with a very bitter aftertaste, believe me. It is like traffic, you always think that the lane other than the one you are traveling in, is fastest... but as soon as you switch lanes you realize it is at least just as bad if not worse. Be careful of what you wish for, you might get it.

It never really was done well, but Roosevelt had a viable plan. These new neo colonists in DC just don't give a damn and are also neglectful landlords.

Again. Mixed signals here. This seems as if you are complaining that they are not stricter with the management of PR... I would have thought this would be a positive thing .

However, Tainari is also correct. We never stopped being exploitative in a lot of countries. An American would have to study real history in college, to know how bad it can get.

But that is the thing... in recorded human history this has always been the case. There is no reason to believe we are going to get rid of this anytime these millennia. We cannot plan for a world that has never existed before. But here is the kicker... it has improved, dramatically! In just the last 100 years the difference is huge, and in large part to the credit of the US. More importantly, the alternative contenders to world leader/empire/big dog... they have proven that are far more brutal, they care far less for human life, they are more bellicose, and they all speak ugly languages (sorry that last bit was a joke, but the rest is accurate). If the US werent the world leader... it might have been britain, or perhaps it would have been the germans have the done better during the war.... or perhaps it would have been the USSR, or perhaps china. Are you saying you would take ANY of those over a US-led world? I certainly wouldn't.

When she brought up income inequality, she took the lead:

This is a whole different debate. Suffice it to say, you can have very equal income and be shit income. That does not make a system better. Belarus has a gini coefficient of ~25... presumably a very equal country to live in, but that is only half the story.
I don't really care if there some inequality so long there is a decent minimum. The US lacks some of this, but even the poorest of the poorest in the US can make it better than even middle-class in the rest of the world. When I moved to this country my mom and I both had near-minimal wages and we survived in a household for many years with our crapy salaries at a standard of living that was 100x higher than what we had in cuba.

[JohnRawls]

The big challenge is overcoming fear Late. The USA is a very powerful government with very greedy elites with the power to kill many people, invent lies about the reasons for it, and many of the public in the USA believe all the lies or do not really know what to do about it.

They do not even know much about the places they have taken over and the people they have stripped of basic human rights. Boricuas means Puerto Ricans in the original Taino language of the island. It comes from the Taino word for the island of Puerto Rico. Borinquen or Boriken. Bo-ri-ken. Land of the the brave and noble Lord. The cordillera central is cloud filled and it is a rainforest. It is where the Tainos thought the Noble Lord lived. You had to be brave and noble to survive the hurricanes and the fury of nature at its fiercest in the Caribbean islands. You did not know that did you Late?

The people who take over and do not give a damn about the conquered never know much about that culture. They only know about the lies they write about all day. They never like taking responsibility for the devastation they cause because they are people who's only real value is wanting power and greed. They think that is the way it is done in the world. Who gives a shit about those Indians, or those Blacks or those workers, or those women, or those children, or the land or the rights of those living beings....what counts is MY POWER, my MONEY, my greed. ME.

In the end they fail to realize what keeps this world together is LOVE. Caring. Solidarity. Empathy, and respect. And being able to share with everyone and with real commitment.

Everything has a solution. All it requires is for you to believe in the power of human communities to change and to do what is necessary to make things better. Work hard for a positive change. Do not tolerate greed and abuse as the only way to treat other nations or other people. Choose good values.

Once you do that? A real solution is never far away.

I didn't read every post of everyone in this thread but I doubt this question has been touched which will be below. As I remember, you are pro-Puerto Rico independence if I am not mistaken.

What is the economical impact on Puerto Rico once it looses its current status with the US? What is the impact on the wellbeing and doing business with the US? What are the chances Puerto Rico will be significantly less well off because the economic ties with US will be broken and Puerto Rico will become just like any other third state?

[Tainari88]

I didn't read every post of everyone in this thread but I doubt this question has been touched which will be below. As I remember, you are pro-Puerto Rico independence if I am not mistaken.

What is the economical impact on Puerto Rico once it looses its current status with the US? What is the impact on the wellbeing and doing business with the US? What are the chances Puerto Rico will be significantly less well off because the economic ties with US will be broken and Puerto Rico will become just like any other third state?

John Rawls, this has been answered already. Read the posts. Do not be a lazy reader. I have never been a lazy reader.

What the issue is? The US government NEVER had the intention of making things work in favor of the Puerto Ricans. NEVER. It has always treated PR as WAR BOOTY. Not with respect or equality. What is the effect of colonial policies? The US congress ignored the vote from Puerto Rico way back in the turn of the 20th century. Do you understand what that means? That democracy was not important back then. It is not important in 2023 because they continue to not want to have a binding referendum. The reason they don't want a binding referendum is simple. They do not want to have to give power to Puerto Rico. Whether it is integrating the island into the state federal structure or by letting it become a sovereign nation with the power to negotiate contracts and deals with other countries that compete with the USA on a global level. So what do they do? IGNORE it. No change.

If the lack of real solutions are blocked by the USA continually and the only solution is packing your bags to go to the USA to live and abandoning the country to outsiders dodging taxes from the USA? Then, Puerto Rico becomes like the Native American nations. Displaced people living in poverty or without any real representation. Genocided out or pushed out and disempowered.

The USA ignored the votes of the American Samoans. They ignore the votes of many nations in Latin America that does not favor their own elite commercial or banking interests or corporate interests. What does this mean for the US government that serves the interests of these powerful actors with lobbyists and special PAC money and etc in DC? That democracy is for sale and is useless in the face of corrupt power players who are only interested in respecting what is working for them.

If you continue to believe that the US democratic system is going to survive all those powerful fucks in DC and company who have been in the backstage fucking over Puerto Rico, and many other countries all over the world because democracy is only convenient if it favors their pocketbooks? You have no sense of human history. Again, how many nations kicked out the colonizer? Almost all of the Americas are ex-colonies from a European Empire. That is history. Why did they pull away? Oppression and extraction of wealth, labor and so on that did not help the extracted group. End of the story.

The island has to be a colony you say? Why? How is that benefitting us? it is benefitting special interests and not us. That is reality. Puerto Ricans go to the USA mainland. Are they wealthy and well off over there dropping their Spanish and assmiliating and living in urban ghettoes and living in communities where they are seen as outsiders and racially mixed people with no prestige, money or power. It is the same problem there in the mainland that all the ethnic groups from non European extraction people have in the USA. You got to fight for power and for representation if you were and are African American, Asian, Indian, Latin American. WHY? Because those groups are the COLONIZED groups from the European crown system of the past.

To break out of colonialism you need to stop repeating the behavior that the Empires engaged in. What is that? Using other places with less development to build your empire up on the backs of the poor, the oppressed and the conquered. You need to stop talking shit about being democratic and actually BECOME democratic. Consistently. if a nation votes for something that your powerful plutocrats don't like because they lose money or power? You need to say, no, we won' t interfere with that choice. We are believers in democracy. Not greed. Not raw military imposition. The era of imperialism is over. We tried that and it was a disaster. We need to talk with them as equals and treat them with respect and justice. Not with condescension, racist overtones and attitudes of white supremacy or arrogance. We do not use force or violence and threats to force a decision. We do not starve people out if they refuse to go along with our agenda. That is an advancement in human civilization. A break from the past John Rawls. Not giving in to some powerful nation who uses violence to impose.

Should Ukraine give in to Russia? No. But Russia can destroy them. Not if they resist eh? But resistance is futile if power is all favoring one side eh? Are people going to change their identities and give up their language and their history and their blood spilled into that land of theirs because hey? Money. Do you think abusive fucks give up power and money to the people they treat like slaves? Study history. Slaves are NEVER respected in Empires. They are used up and eventually replaced with other slaves. It is a chain and a system. You break the system in order to improve the entire way it is set up. That is what the American Civil War was about. That is what the death of monarchies in Europe and the emergence of Republics were about. That is what change in human history is about.

Watch the video from Vice News about Why Puerto Rico and DC are not states of the USA John. It explains why colonialism does not work anymore at all in PR. It has to do with the rot in the system. I explained it to you. I ask you about the reality of? If colonialism works for the colonized then why did all the nations that lived under English rule and so on pull away from that system? Why break a system that works? Have you asked that question of yourself? Or are you brainwashed with the USA propaganda so strongly that you refuse to believe that the US government is corrupt and is in trouble despite that January 6th coup and half the nation believing that Biden might not be a legit president due to lies spread by people who hate democracy? It is in trouble John Rawls. Get with the reality.

[Rich]

What the issue is? The US government NEVER had the intention of making things work in favor of the Puerto Ricans. NEVER.

Unless you think the majority of Puerto Ricans are stupid and don't know what's good for them, things clearly are working for Puerto Ricans, that's why the majority want Puerto Rico to remain part of the United States. If Puerto Ricans don't like being part of the United /states they can always go to the paradise fo Cuba. Strangely rather than wanting to escape to the Cuban paradise, most seem to want to go and live in the United States itself.

Those that continue to push for independence are just as much to blame for Puerto Rico's failure to gain statehood as those that support maintaining the status quo. it seems these people constantly vote against statehood and then complain that evil America is denying Puerto Rico statehood.

[late]

This is a whole different debate.

Suffice it to say, you can have very equal income and have shit for income.

Not in the slightest.

That's true, but not relevant. High levels of income inequality causes all manner of trouble. It's also one of the reasons we are seeing the rise of authoritarianism powered by populism.

[wat0n]

Unless you think the majority of Puerto Ricans are stupid and don't know what's good for them, things clearly are working for Puerto Ricans, that's why the majority want Puerto Rico to remain part of the United States. If Puerto Ricans don't like being part of the United /states they can always go to the paradise fo Cuba. Strangely rather than wanting to escape to the Cuban paradise, most seem to want to go and live in the United States itself.

Those that continue to push for independence are just as much to blame for Puerto Rico's failure to gain statehood as those that support maintaining the status quo. it seems these people constantly vote against statehood and then complain that evil America is denying Puerto Rico statehood.

I don't get this post. Puerto Ricans have already voted in referenda to ask for statehood.

Something they've never supported is independence. Would it be smart for them to do so? Probably not, I would not if I were Puerto Rican, but if most decide otherwise for emotional or other reasons it's their right to. The only condition would be for Puerto Rico not to try to affect US security, which it isn't - if anything, I'd think PR would likely be an American ally a few years down the road.

[XogGyux]

Not in the slightest.

That's true, but not relevant. High levels of income inequality causes all manner of trouble. It's also one of the reasons we are seeing the rise of authoritarianism powered by populism.

I care about the standard of living, not as much about income equality, at least not at this time. New York has higher income inequality than Mississippi, yet Mississippi ranks consistently as one of the worse states to live and with lower standard of living.
As far as I am concerned, for the sake of societal welfare, the government should have the duty to provide minimal necessities to live (shelter, food, healthcare, education) and additional help for the vulnerable populations (children, elderly, disabled). Other than that, I'd take a wait-and-see approach and see if more is needed. We have not even reached the bare minimum, asking for more is like asking for dessert before having your appetizers or main course at a restaurant. Not saying we cannot have it or should not fight for it... but there are more pressing matters right now. Furthermore, consider what it entails, are you willing to split your check in half so you can give the other half to someone in Africa making a tiny fraction of what you have?

[late]

I care about the standard of living, not so much about income equality.

Still not relevant.

To use your NY example, people are getting shoved out of NYC due to the cost of living. This is made a lot worse by the high levels of income inequality there.

Over a hundred years ago, TR busted up monopolies, and did other things to lessen income inequality, although a lot had to wait for the Great Depression and FDR. I suspect this is a perennial, with Congress paying close attention to money, helping corruption spread.

[Tainari88]

Unless you think the majority of Puerto Ricans are stupid and don't know what's good for them, things clearly are working for Puerto Ricans, that's why the majority want Puerto Rico to remain part of the United States. If Puerto Ricans don't like being part of the United /states they can always go to the paradise fo Cuba. Strangely rather than wanting to escape to the Cuban paradise, most seem to want to go and live in the United States itself.

Those that continue to push for independence are just as much to blame for Puerto Rico's failure to gain statehood as those that support maintaining the status quo. it seems these people constantly vote against statehood and then complain that evil America is denying Puerto Rico statehood.

What is good for them? Colonialism is good for them? Why?

Racists and racist laws are good for them. The SCOTUS stated that the reason for not making PR a state of the USA or having the constitution apply there? Is that quote:

Rich get with the history lessons. I know it is not something you study. If you don't study the history of India and China that were both in conflict with the English Imperial system, I do not expect you to know the history of a little island in the Caribbean. All you need to know is that Puerto Rico never was given a democratic vote since the US takeover from Spain in 1898. PR was promised liberation by Washington DC. It never materialized. What followed is a series of moves by the USA government meant to support extraction economy problems.

Do you want all of Jamaica to move to the UK? How about India? Pakistan? Hong Kong? Australia and every other nation the English fucked with in hundreds of years of imperial rule from afar? You LOST all the colonies including the Yankee colonies. WHY? Aren't you supposed to be improving the lives and pocketbooks of these colonials and so on and so forth? What the hell did you do to make it sustainable for them? The truth is your job is not to be bloodsucking vampires as a reduced tiny elite and distribute the wealth to the lower class mobs in the UK. Did you do that? No. So where did all that wealth go in all that time? Where is that lost Empire now?

You better not think you need to kiss ass to the EU now and try to get out of Brexit. Thinking you can forge your own path alone. You need help. Yet you are arrogant enough to think a little island like Puerto Rico should not have a right to be independent.

What were all those Irish troubles about by the way? Did the Irish not like English colonization tactics? Like the Nigerians? Or the vast territories in Africa, the Americas, the Caribbean and etc? You lost all your colonies practically. If the benevolent English imperialists were civilizing the world and making the world very democratic in the process why did they LOSE all the colonies? Well, because....because, it does not work over the long haul. All that rule from afar stuff is damn messy, damn difficult and it takes a lot of warring and lying and brutalizing to accomplish. You can lie to yourselves all damn day. The truth is imperialism over historical time does not work!

Where is the money? Did it trickle down to the working class folks in London, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, etc? It did not....then who was it serving? The East Indian Company and Lloyd's and HSBC and who knows what other asshole bankers and corporations were raking in the money without any respect for the devastation they left behind?

Then the local racist English get pissed they got to see a bunch of brown hordes from the former colonies moving in to their neighborhoods because the multicultural liberals got to bust a deal to make sure they keep their ill gotten gains in the overseas ex possessions. It is full of SHIT.

The Anglos and their fucked up ex Empire are some of the most cold, calculated, and nasty Imperialists the world has ever known. Instead of learning their lessons from their own failures they continue on with the class conscious bullshit from the past hoping that they can regain their old glories by sniffing the ass of the USA. I got news for you....it won't work for them. It did not work for you guys either, and it is about failed POLICIES and failed attitudes about human life. Learn that and gain knowledge and stop the bullshit. My advice. Learn and move on something better.

[Tainari88]

I care about the standard of living, not as much about income equality, at least not at this time. New York has higher income inequality than Mississippi, yet Mississippi ranks consistently as one of the worse states to live and with lower standard of living.
As far as I am concerned, for the sake of societal welfare, the government should have the duty to provide minimal necessities to live (shelter, food, healthcare, education) and additional help for the vulnerable populations (children, elderly, disabled). Other than that, I'd take a wait-and-see approach and see if more is needed. We have not even reached the bare minimum, asking for more is like asking for dessert before having your appetizers or main course at a restaurant. Not saying we cannot have it or should not fight for it... but there are more pressing matters right now. Furthermore, consider what it entails, are you willing to split your check in half so you can give the other half to someone in Africa making a tiny fraction of what you have?

Xog, the truth is that the USA has an internal problem. They can't provide for their own population living in their own fifty states because the income inequality is making it increasingly difficult.

I think the USA is so lacking in real justice that if pressed hard financially they will do what Spain did in 1898. Sell off Puerto Rico to some other superpower to get some quick money and RUN from the entire mess. If they do? The dumbass statehooders will start on the same bullshit, of well, the new OWNERS of the island are not so bad. Let us kiss their ass and see if we survive politically.

Independence is not something easy to obtain. It is usually about blood, wars, austerity, hardship, problems and blockades by greedy elites wanting to put on the pressure. But once you get over the hump? You got a lot of develop with some freedom on the other side. Nothing worth something in this world comes without a trade off or a sacrifice. If you think it does? You are not mature in thinking. Maturity means realizing that this world we live in is not for the weak ones who want things easy to obtain and do not want the responsibilities of ruling themselves.

[Tainari88]

I don't get this post. Puerto Ricans have already voted in referenda to ask for statehood.

Something they've never supported is independence. Would it be smart for them to do so? Probably not, I would not if I were Puerto Rican, but if most decide otherwise for emotional or other reasons it's their right to. The only condition would be for Puerto Rico not to try to affect US security, which it isn't - if anything, I'd think PR would likely be an American ally a few years down the road.

That is not true Wat0n. Puerto Rico had political parties that all supported independence all the way until the year......1968. What happened that year that Puerto Rico introduced the statehood party? Well Fidel Castro and the boogeyman of Communism in the Caribbean. Losing control of Central America and the crazy idea they had....that got to get some Spanish speaking Cuban guy to go for statehood. In Puerto Rico.

The beginnings of the statehood movement was funded by non Puerto Ricans. A great thing eh? I don't think so.

The only people like AOC and others who have introduced a bill that will force the congress to respect popular votes in Puerto Rico. So far? The conservative Republicans are not cooperating.

What is ironic is that the pro statehood Puerto Ricans are Republican thinking right wing idiots. Lol. But? The Republicans stateside are racist freaks and won't cooperate. I think? How dumb do you have to be? You want to force your way into a political scene full of racists who do not want you to be part of their party because you are Puerto Rican. Not because you are different in ideology. Mitch McConnell continues to whine about Puerto Ricans being possible liberals and leftists. But they are not. The statehooders are not socialists. They are Republicans conservatives. They are corrupt, incompetent and extremely bad administrators. But they are good asskissers. Yet they can't get the statehood thing accomplished. Why? Racists ruling their party.

Get away from the racists people. Trying to make them change their racist minds is an exercise in futility. Become some liberals and join up with the multicultural rainbow coalition and you too might wind up forcing statehood on the nation of bad imperialistic shit theory history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Puer ... referendum

The problem with the statehood movement is that it is full of horrible candidates full of corruption and sellout behaviors that can't get a damn thing of value done. That is the reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Progr ... uerto_Rico)

[wat0n]

@Tainari88 when did most Puerto Ricans vote for independence in a referendum?

[Tainari88]

Unless you think the majority of Puerto Ricans are stupid and don't know what's good for them, things clearly are working for Puerto Ricans, that's why the majority want Puerto Rico to remain part of the United States. If Puerto Ricans don't like being part of the United /states they can always go to the paradise fo Cuba. Strangely rather than wanting to escape to the Cuban paradise, most seem to want to go and live in the United States itself.

Those that continue to push for independence are just as much to blame for Puerto Rico's failure to gain statehood as those that support maintaining the status quo. it seems these people constantly vote against statehood and then complain that evil America is denying Puerto Rico statehood.

Look Rich, let us talk facts now eh? Puerto Rico voted against integrating into the USA system in 1917. In 1898 the USA came in because they were going to liberate us from oppressive Spain. Liberate us. Soon it was clear that there would be no liberation. It will be military rule for fifty years. That meant the Puerto Ricans were not allowed to have local representatives chosen by them. For fifty years. When the new constitution was set up it stated clearly that any law passed by Puerto Ricans could be and would be overridden by the federal system in the mainland. Which effectively made Puerto Rican self rule a moot point. Then they discouraged national feelings. They said you can't speak Spanish in public schools, you can't fly your flag, it is illegal to speak about independence and or organize and hold meetings where independence plans are spoken about and planned about. But the only political parties back in 1948 were autonomous parties that wanted independence. The statehood party never existed until 1968. The first statehood candidate wasn't a native Puerto Rican. He was of Cuban, French and Haitian extraction from a wealthy family backed by Washington DC funds. Not local funds. Why did they do that? Answer that question.

Answer why that vast UK empire fizzled out over time Rich? Weren't the Anglos on a mission to civilize the world of the savage inferior people and make life better for all? Including those warring Africans of inferior blood, and those crazy Muslims in Pakistan and Indian Raj whatever, and Opium wars in China to get a hold of all that money? The British are some of the most cold-hearted, horrible low life fucking Imperialists the world has ever known. And it is not about skin color it is about their MENTALITY. Of class-conscious monarchy BULLSHIT. I hate that with everything I got. I am not lying. The Irish were colonized by the English. And they got the troubles as a result with the Irish and Michael Collins and all the rest of those IRA folks down the line. Why did Ireland not just succumb to the English and lay down and give up? Why fight for Irish independence? Because hell they just need to pack their fucking bags and go to London and all their troubles over being Irish and Ireland being their land and not the English crown's land would be over eh? You CHOOSE to be aggressive and what do they tell you lower class English folk who live off of a pittance? That all that money and blood and wars and problems caused is for the Glory of God and King and Queen? It is not! It is for the Glory of some tiny elite like the East India Company, Lloyd's and the rest who made a killing in profits but the trickling down to the working class in the United Kingdom never made it.

Scotland now is chomping at the bit with Brexit and who knows what Northern Ireland is going to do? You don't seem to learn that all that sucking out resources from other places because the UK grows what fucking peat moss and can't grow its own agricultural sector well enough to prosper for itself? It has to go and buy tea, silk, and everything else it needs from Asia or Latin America or Africa. They got tired of all that BULLSHIT lying shit from London and the rebellions multiplied all over the place. They lost the Empire. Now they think they can get away from the EU and be special snowflakes by themselves living off of the dreams of past glories.

You see my style @Rich it is not English. It never will be. People have a right to be who they are. Not be taken over by some elitists with bad intentions to live off of the profits for all time. It is not humane. Stop the inhumane bullshit. It gives you awful results.

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88 when did most Puerto Ricans vote for independence in a referendum?

Study the PPD party. Pan, Tierra y Libertad. Luis Muñoz Rivera y Luis Muñoz Marín, the Muñoz legacy. They were not for statehood. Both were at the core about being an independent nation down the road. The problem they faced was worrying about losing the island to another military dictatorship by the USA and having a war happen between the nationalist party.

If you study that history you realize that politics on the island have never been without manipulations from afar.

I find it ironic that the USA worries about interferences in their electoral process by foreign governments like Chinese governments and Russian hackers, yet they interfere in many elections abroad including PR.

I do not agree with statehood. But it does not mean I would not accept a vote that is a majority vote from Puerto Ricans who want statehood. I would hate that result. But I would accept it Wat0n. Simply because democracy is my guiding principle. I also know that statehood for me? Spells poverty, drug addiction, worse conditions, destroyed Puerto Rican national identity and total loss of anything I value and losing it all. Land, culture and language and national identity. Horror and death. That for me is statehood.

Lol. Ask the Hawaiians what happened to them in terms of financial problems, cultural problems, land problems and losing total control of Hawaii.

It is not a better deal. It never is.

A quote from a Hawaiian Native's perspective:

“Hawaii is being sold to the global elite,” he says. “Anyone around the world who has any kind of resources wants a piece of paradise.

Read this Wat0n. I do not want the Puerto Ricans to wind up in this situation. It is horrible.

And also Puerto Ricans were sent to Hawaii as low wage laborers on pineapple plantations and sugar cane plantations.

Read this and tell me that is a good thing eh?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-12/ ... /101051550

[wat0n]

Study the PPD party. Pan, Tierra y Libertad. Luis Muñoz Rivera y Luis Muñoz Marín, the Muñoz legacy. They were not for statehood. Both were at the core about being an independent nation down the road. The problem they faced was worrying about losing the island to another military dictatorship by the USA and having a war happen between the nationalist party.

If you study that history you realize that politics on the island have never been without manipulations from afar.

I find it ironic that the USA worries about interferences in their electoral process by foreign governments like Chinese governments and Russian hackers, yet they interfere in many elections abroad including PR.

I do not agree with statehood. But it does not mean I would not accept a vote that is a majority vote from Puerto Ricans who want statehood. I would hate that result. But I would accept it Wat0n. Simply because democracy is my guiding principle. I also know that statehood for me? Spells poverty, drug addiction, worse conditions, destroyed Puerto Rican national identity and total loss of anything I value and losing it all. Land, culture and language and national identity. Horror and death. That for me is statehood.

Lol. Ask the Hawaiians what happened to them in terms of financial problems, cultural problems, land problems and losing total control of Hawaii.

It is not a better deal. It never is.

Well, if I were Puerto Rican my ranking would be:

1) Statehood
2) Independence
3) Status quo

If the US says no to statehood or refuses to answer the issue promptly, I would go for independence.

I suspect many, maybe most, Puerto Ricans are in this boat. And while the status quo is preferable to open war against the US government, a push for independence would most definitely be damaging to American standing globally.

So if you think the US will never accept Puerto Rico as a state, if I were you I'd push for Congress to address the issue ASAP and get the "no" response. That's how you'll get independence, or at least a referendum where a majority Puerto Rican voters supports it. That type of result would likely cause a big ass political crisis in this country, because they'll be pushing for independence democratically and peacefully as opposed to violently like in the Civil War.

[pugsville]

I didn't read every post of everyone in this thread but I doubt this question has been touched which will be below. As I remember, you are pro-Puerto Rico independence if I am not mistaken.

What is the economical impact on Puerto Rico once it looses its current status with the US? What is the impact on the wellbeing and doing business with the US? What are the chances Puerto Rico will be significantly less well off because the economic ties with US will be broken and Puerto Rico will become just like any other third state?

Yeah S;avery *IS* profitable.

IT;s better for some people to be slaves as you know profit!

And of course the slaves benefit too,


Some people would have less rights, and it;s the right thing as it;s profitable and everyone benefits including those with less rights!

DO you have principles? Or are profits everything?

[Tainari88]

Well, if I were Puerto Rican my ranking would be:

1) Statehood
2) Independence
3) Status quo

If the US says no to statehood or refuses to answer the issue promptly, I would go for independence.

I suspect many, maybe most, Puerto Ricans are in this boat. And while the status quo is preferable to open war against the US government, a push for independence would most definitely be damaging to American standing globally.

So if you think the US will never accept Puerto Rico as a state, if I were you I'd push for Congress to address the issue ASAP and get the "no" response. That's how you'll get independence, or at least a referendum where a majority Puerto Rican voters supports it. That type of result would likely cause a big ass political crisis in this country, because they'll be pushing for independence democratically and peacefully as opposed to violently like in the Civil War.

Study the Alaskan natives and the Hawaiian natives, the natives of all fifty states. They are either dead, in reservations, living in homeless camps and fucked for life.

You continue to defend the USA gov't Wat0n. As if they have a right to defend their global bullshit standing. They need to face up to genocide behaviors and slavery problems and every problem they have had that is about racism, capitalist greed gone crazy and corporations paying off and bribing politicians.

The only way to improve the human condition is being fully responsible for the mistakes.

If you continue to excuse the shitty system full of lying bullshit? There is no improvement. Period.

Go to the confession booth. Repent from the crap behavior and CHANGE. Make for real change. Not lies and lip service.

Otherwise? You will have burning buildings, terror attacks, questions about dubious violence, chaos....and climate crisis, and constant threats that never go away. Why? Because you caused a crisis based on a failure to adapt to changing conditions hoping that exploiting and extracting will go on forever without any end. Everything ends Wat0n. Everything. Mature out of the stupidity and realize that the native Puerto Ricans, the native Hawaiians, the natives all over the world have to be respected and inequality is not a long-term solution to that problem. Inequality is part of the problem and it will escalate. Late is right. I agree with @late on that. He is right.

[wat0n]

@Tainari88 well, if you think that then all the more reasons for Puerto Rican politicians to listen to the voters and do their best to get Congress to decide if it wants to admit Puerto Rico to the Union.

If Congress says no, then you'll get exactly what you want. And if it says yes, Puerto Rico will be in equal footing with the other states and the will of the Puerto Rican people will be satisfied.

What's the problem with this?

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88 well, if you think that then all the more reasons for Puerto Rican politicians to listen to the voters and do their best to get Congress to decide if it wants to admit Puerto Rico to the Union.

If Congress says no, then you'll get exactly what you want. And if it says yes, Puerto Rico will be in equal footing with the other states and the will of the Puerto Rican people will be satisfied.

What's the problem with this? :?:

Have you studied how many times a referendum has come up in congress about Puerto Rico's status? It is a lot of times Wat0n. Does congress do anything about it? No. Because they only accept non binding referendums. Non binding means that if Puerto Rico votes for statehood, independence or enhanced ELA status quo stuff the congress has a right to IGNORE Puerto Rico.

Why do they do this?

Let us study what happened with American Samoa. What happened with Hawaii? Why Phillipines became independent from the USA gov't in 1946 and why Native American Indians weren't allowed to vote in US elections until the 1950s.

You go deep into the archives of the Department of the Interior and study the broken treatees, and violated agreements between a bunch of Indian tribal governments and the USA federal system. Why do they not honor their agreements?

Can you guess why they do not respect the documents they sign with the Native people?

If it interferes with their ability to keep the land, do gentrification, or control the resources and if they get bribes from powerful capitalists and or corporations with deep pockets? They say....FUCK DEMOCRACY. Go for the MONEY and the POWER. Even if you got to kill people with international human rights.

That is how you know you are dealing with untrustworthy assholes Wat0n. Democracy only is respected if it is white, it is wealthy and it is about the rights of the ones with POWER.

If you study the gains made by African American civil rights movements, American Indian movements like the fairly recent Standing Rock situation about fossil fuels running through Lakota land rights? It is all plain as day to see.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez made the decision to take action during that entire confrontation with the Lakota, etc showdown with the US government.

My entire life my mother worked with Native American educators and administrators, intellectuals and leaders. All of them had tremendously interesting stories about the lack of respect of treatees between the Native people and the US government.

Look at this scene from Dancing with Wolves...it is not about lies. There were masses of Bison killed for their tongues only. Waste and war and total disregard for land rights. Why? Greed. Capitalists who wanted control of resources.



Puerto Ricans are in the way of what? Tax havens. Making trouble for the USA who needs to be able to jump off of PR and land in Panama for the Canal...deal. Problems in Central America and United Fruit. Damn you got Walker declaring himself the dictator of Nicaragua because the US needed to make the canal happen. Nicaragua was considered a good place to dredge the canal. Unite the East Coast shipping lanes with the West Coast. It is all about PROFITS. Not human rights, democracy, or respect. What is imperialism? It is about violence, force, threats and theft, and the worst of human behavior via war and occupation. They then cover their ass with propaganda. And people believe it. Why? Because the ones who write the stories are the victors. And dominate the stories. The voices of the ones who got fucked over for life are shut forever. Gone. Dead. Buried and silenced. If you count how many people have had to become ghosts and never be able to be with their own group ever again through war, immigration that is forced, displacement due to poverty, lack of affordability and plain desperation? The numbers are staggering. Why do I have to connect the dots here?

Because the lies have been effective. I bet most of you writing on here learned something new in this thread. Why? Again, the voices of all these 'losing side people' is often SILENCED. In order to have a balanced sense of human history you got to let everyone involved have their say first. With truth being allowed to be examined. And once the ones who did the damage take responsibility for the damage they caused? There is hope for a solution. But if you never allow the issues to be addressed? There will never be improvement. That is guaranteed.

I see a direct correlation of a lack of respect for the natural world and the resources it has with what is going on NOW. In 2023. Mass extinction events are on the rise. And it is about lack of respect for the rights of other people occupying lands lusted over by a bunch of capitalistic greedy people who have no sense of balance about what is going on with their constant demands for more and more. It needs to change. It has to change. It won't change with making excuses for these people. The Empire building in human history extracting and taking and taking and not replacing, replanting or letting the world recuperate from the constant pillaging is not going to end by itself. It will take some mighty hard resistance.

Puerto Rico needs change. So do all of the nations now struggling with climate change and with running out of options to cope with the pressures that will be coming. Hiding your head in the sand is not a solution.

It has nothing to do with democracy.