[wat0n]

@wat0n

If you think systemic racism occurs even when the agents of that racism do not think about race, them it is possible this murder was also an episode of systemic racism even if the murderers did not think about race.

And it's also possible it was not.

So, how did systemic racism cause this and what evidence do you have that was the case?

[Pants-of-dog]

And it's also possible it was not.

Sure.

But that means that we cannot use a lack of premeditation as evidence that this was not systemic racism.

So, how did systemic racism cause this and what evidence do you have that was the case?

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=183258&p=15263449#p15263449

My argument can be found there.

Please clarify what you would accept as evidence for systemic racism. Thank you.

[wat0n]

Sure.

But that means that we cannot use a lack of premeditation as evidence that this was not systemic racism.

This does assume premeditation:

The cops undoubtedly felt they could get away with this violence and abuse of their power because the vast majority of previous episodes of violence and murder that were targeted at black people led to impunity on the part of the police.

The fact that this did not happen is almost certainly a result of the spotlight on, and discussion about, systemic racism after the murder of Mr. George Floyd.

Again, since you seem to be unable to understand what "premeditation" is:

Premeditation
Primary tabs
When an individual contemplates, for any length of time, undertaking an activity and then subsequently takes the action.

If your claim is that these cops contemplated beating Tyre Nichols up because they thought they could get away with it, it's premeditated as per the definition above.

Please clarify what you would accept as evidence for systemic racism. Thank you.

Asked and already answered.

[Pants-of-dog]

This does assume premeditation:

No, feelings brought on by habitual behaviour are not premeditation.

Whether or not f it was premeditated has no impact on whether or not this is systemic racism.

Again, since you seem to be unable to understand what "premeditation" is:

Again, I am not arguing premeditation. If yo think I am, then I am now clarifying that I am not arguing for premeditation.

Consequently, any imagined claims of premeditation are a strawman.

If your claim is that these cops contemplated beating Tyre Nichols up because they thought they could get away with it, it's premeditated as per the definition above.

No, I said they felt they would get away with it. I did not say they thought they did. They may have. They may not have. It is irrelevant to the fact that this was an episode of systemic racism.

Asked and already answered.

No, you did not.

Please answer the question.

[wat0n]

No, feelings brought on by habitual behaviour are not premeditation.

No, I said they felt they would get away with it. I did not say they thought they did. They may have. They may not have. It is irrelevant to the fact that this was an episode of systemic racism.

"Feeling" you can get away with a crime and committing it as a result implies contemplating committing a crime beforehand - exactly the definition of premeditation.

Habitual criminals also contemplate committing their crimes, by the way. In fact, it's because of this that the habit is sustained over time without getting caught. Indeed, learning how to avoid being caught and prosecuted it is part of the process of becoming an experienced criminal. Under this ridiculous view, organized crime would not be premeditated because it's just habitual behavior.

Whether or not f it was premeditated has no impact on whether or not this is systemic racism.

Based on your own narrative, it definitely does.

If the cops did not think they could get away with this kind of beating of a Black person, can you say the incident was caused by systemic racism? No.

Did they believe they could get away with the beating? Seems unlikely, because they tried to justify it ex post. It would also not be rational for them to believe so, given the precedent set by the conviction of Derek Chauvin and other similar incidents in recent years and the fact that they were wearing bodycams.

Oh, and by the way, there is also a recent and ongoing trial of another Memphis cop who kidnapped, murdered and then tried to hide the corpse of a Black person while on duty for first-degree murder - something he already admitted during the trial. The reason, it seems, is because the victim was allegedly dating his ex.

https://www.actionnews5.com/2022/08/15/ ... ges-court/

Are you saying these cops weren't aware of what was going on in this case? Would it be rational for them to, as you said yourself, allow themselves be filmed randomly beating a Black resident to death in light of the aforementioned ongoing trial? Is it rational for them to believe they can get away with that when one of their colleagues did not?

Again, I am not arguing premeditation. If yo think I am, then I am now clarifying that I am not arguing for premeditation.

Consequently, any imagined claims of premeditation are a strawman.

Just because you lack the honesty to admit your narrative implies premeditation, does not mean it doesn't imply premeditation.

No, you did not.

Please answer the question.

Yes I did. I even mentioned the clearest example of systemic racism: Intentional discrimination by the government. Leaving cases of unintentional negative impacts of its policies on some racial or ethnic group without any business justification unaddressed is also systemic racism, because in that case the government is now intentionally discriminating since it is aware the disparate effects of its policies aren't justified by any business need.

You have yet to prove either played a role here, particularly given the governmental reaction to this case.

[Pants-of-dog]

"Feeling" you can get away with a crime and committing it as a result implies contemplating committing a crime beforehand - exactly the definition of premeditation.

Habitual criminals also contemplate committing their crimes, by the way. In fact, it's because of this that the habit is sustained over time without getting caught. Indeed, learning how to avoid being caught and prosecuted it is part of the process of becoming an experienced criminal. Under this ridiculous view, organized crime would not be premeditated because it's just habitual behavior.

So, are you how arguing that this cannot be systemic racism if it is premeditated?

If you want, feel free to think I am arguing premeditation, since you think that is consistent with systemic racism anyway.

Based on your own narrative, it definitely does.

If the cops did not think they could get away with this kind of beating of a Black person, can you say the incident was caused by systemic racism? No.

You literally just agreed that this could be systemic racism even if they did not think about it.

Are you now saying that systemic racism only happens when the individual committing systemic racism thinks about race?

Last time I asked this, you replied:
“Let's assume I say no.”

Are you now saying “yes”?

Did they believe they could get away with the beating? Seems unlikely, because they tried to justify it ex post. It would also not be rational for them to believe so, given the precedent set by the conviction of Derek Chauvin and other similar incidents in recent years and the fact that they were wearing bodycams.

Oh, and by the way, there is also a recent and ongoing trial of another Memphis cop who kidnapped, murdered ad then tried to hide the corpse of a Black person while on duty for first-degree murder. The reason, it seems, is because the victim was allegedly dating his ex.

https://www.actionnews5.com/2022/08/15/ ... ges-court/

Are you saying these cops weren't aware of what was going on in this case? Would it be rational for them to, as you said yourself, allow themselves be filmed randomly beating a Black resident to death in light of the aforementioned ongoing trial?


Just because you lack the honesty to admit your narrative implies premeditation, does not mean it doesn't imply premeditation.



Yes I did. I even mentioned the clearest example of systemic racism: Intentional discrimination by the government. Leaving cases of unintentional negative impacts of its policies on some racial or ethnic group without any business justification unaddressed is also systemic racism, because in that case the government is now intentionally discriminating since it is aware the disparate effects of its policies aren't justified by any business need.

You have yet to prove either played a role here, particularly given the governmental reaction to this case.

Before I address this, you need to clarify whether or not systemic racism requires premeditation.

Earlier you said “no”. Are you sticking with that or are you changing your argument?

[wat0n]

So, are you how arguing that this cannot be systemic racism if it is premeditated?

If you want, feel free to think I am arguing premeditation, since you think that is consistent with systemic racism anyway.

I'm simply noting the problems with your narrative. Note no one has established the beating was premeditated. You can't infer that from the available bodycam footage.

Care to explain how does it work, exactly? They just unconsciously beat someone to death?

You literally just agreed that this could be systemic racism even if they did not think about it.

Are you now saying that systemic racism only happens when the individual committing systemic racism thinks about race?

Last time I asked this, you replied:
“Let's assume I say no.”

Are you now saying “yes”?

I was simply trying to understand your reasoning.

Before I address this, you need to clarify whether or not systemic racism requires premeditation.

Earlier you said “no”. Are you sticking with that or are you changing your argument?

Where did I say no? Please remind me, just to understand what type of argument you are trying to make.

I hope you won't take "let's assume X is true" is equivalent to "I believe X is true".

[Pants-of-dog]

I'm simply noting the problems with your narrative. Note no one has established the beating was premeditated. You can't infer that from the available bodycam footage.

Care to explain how does it work, exactly? They just unconsciously beat someone to death?

I was simply trying to understand your reasoning.

Where did I say no? Please remind me, just to understand what type of argument you are trying to make.

I hope you won't take "let's assume X is true" is equivalent to "I believe X is true".

Then please just answer the question:

Do you think systemic racism only happens when the individual committing systemic racism thinks about race?

[wat0n]

Then please just answer the question:

Do you think systemic racism only happens when the individual committing systemic racism thinks about race?

How can individuals commit systemic racism? I can't answer your question before I understand what do you mean by "the individual committing systemic racism". Last time I checked, racism is about how institutions operate, not individual behavior.

[late]

Then please just answer the question:

Do you think systemic racism only happens when the individual committing systemic racism thinks about race?

He'll never stop with the trolling..

Just sayin'

[wat0n]

He'll never stop with the trolling..

Just sayin'

You can respond to the question if you want.

How can an individual commit systemic racism?

[late]

You can respond to the question if you want.

How can an individual commit systemic racism?

I've already answered that.

[wat0n]

I've already answered that.

No, you whined about that. You can answer the question if you want.

[late]

No, you whined about that. You can answer the question if you want.

You tried to erase history by declaring facts were fallacious...

Anytime you want to join the real world, lets us know. But don't waste my time with babbling.

[wat0n]

You tried to erase history by declaring facts were fallacious...

Anytime you want to join the real world, lets us know. But don't waste my time with babbling.

What facts exactly?

If it's about the real world, it is part of the real world that both the city and the DA moved to prosecute quickly. If that's your "case" then the real world disagrees with you.

[Pants-of-dog]

How can individuals commit systemic racism? I can't answer your question before I understand what do you mean by "the individual committing systemic racism". Last time I checked, racism is about how institutions operate, not individual behavior.

Any time someone enacts, supports, or perpetuates those policies, laws, and customs we call systemic racism, when they act in their institutional capacities.

Do you think systemic racism only happens when the individual committing systemic racism thinks about race?

I am asking because I think I might be misunderstanding your argument. Answering this question will help me confirm if I am understanding you correctly.

[wat0n]

Any time someone enacts, supports, or perpetuates those policies, laws, and customs we call systemic racism, when they act in their institutional capacities.

Do you think systemic racism only happens when the individual committing systemic racism thinks about race?

I am asking because I think I might be misunderstanding your argument. Answering this question will help me confirm if I am understanding you correctly.

Then, yes, it would be possible for an individual to simply act as his employer wants him to and, if the employing institution has a racist policy, then act in a systematically racist way without thinking about the matter. He may even feel forced to do so against his will, if his employer could threaten a severe retaliation if he acted differently (which, if the employer is a government, can perfectly consist in jail or worse). But tell me, did these cops do that?

I'm asking because the incident was investigated right away, even before the footage was released, the city went on to fire them and other officers who did not beat Tyre Nichols up yet didn't act properly and the city also published the footage promptly. This type of response doesn't seem like their actions were aligned with the expectations of the MPD. It seems even you agree with this account of the facts, since you claim they did this thinking they could get away with it somehow.

If the city had attempted a coverup, you'd have a much better case. Like it happened in Memphis itself in 1971, when a bunch of cops beat up 3 African American minors killing one, the cops accused of doing so were prosecuted for the fact yet they were acquitted because the other two kids couldn't tell exactly which officers murdered their friend since they were getting beat up themselves, and the other cops testified vague stuff to cover for their colleagues. The PD would then go on to throw a party over the acquittals, rehire the cops and even promote them, all with the city's support since the mayor of the time had been a segregationist and African Americans were a minority of the city's electorate (they'd only become a majority in 1986) without any discernible state or federal intervention as far as I'm aware either.

But, it us clear none of this is happening in this case, and it won't just as it didn't happen with Derek Chauvin's trial. Based on what we know so far, it seems unlikely these cops will be acquitted, they'll at the very least be guilty of aggravated assault and most probably for second degree murder as well. The bodycam footage is quite clear as far as I'm concerned.

Basically, it's 2023, not 1971. I highly doubt these cops would have gotten away with this beating even in 2013 or 2003 if similar footage was available either.

[Pants-of-dog]

Then, yes, it would be possible for an individual to simply act as his employer wants him to and, if the employing institution has a racist policy, then act in a systematically racist way without thinking about the matter. He may even feel forced to do so against his will, if his employer could threaten a severe retaliation if he acted differently (which, if the employer is a government, can perfectly consist in jail or worse). But tell me, did these cops do that?

Rather than say that this institution has a racist policy, I would describe it as a systemically racist custom of providing impunity for cops who kill black people.

And this custom has ingrained in the police habits that can make the cops act in a systematically racist way without thinking about the matter.

I'm asking because the incident was investigated right away, even before the footage was released, the city went on to fire them and other officers who did not beat Tyre Nichols up yet didn't act properly and the city also published the footage promptly. This type of response doesn't seem like their actions were aligned with the expectations of the MPD. It seems even you agree with this account of the facts, since you claim they did this thinking they could get away with it somehow.

If the city had attempted a coverup, you'd have a much better case. Like it happened in Memphis itself in 1971, when a bunch of cops beat up 3 African American minors killing one, the cops accused of doing so were prosecuted for the fact yet they were acquitted because the other two kids couldn't tell exactly which officers murdered their friend since they were getting beat up themselves, and the other cops testified vague stuff to cover for their colleagues. The PD would then go on to throw a party over the acquittals, rehire the cops and even promote them, all with the city's support since the mayor of the time had been a segregationist and African Americans were a minority of the city's electorate (they'd only become a majority in 1986) without any discernible state or federal intervention as far as I'm aware either.

But, it us clear none of this is happening in this case, and it won't just as it didn't happen with Derek Chauvin's trial. Based on what we know so far, it seems unlikely these cops will be acquitted, they'll at the very least be guilty of aggravated assault and most probably for second degree murder as well. The bodycam footage is quite clear as far as I'm concerned.

Basically, it's 2023, not 1971. I highly doubt these cops would have gotten away with this beating even in 2013 or 2003 if similar footage was available either.

Yes, we discussed how this case is different from the usual.

[wat0n]

Rather than say that this institution has a racist policy, I would describe it as a systemically racist custom of providing impunity for cops who kill black people.

And this custom has ingrained in the police habits that can make the cops act in a systematically racist way without thinking about the matter.

A "custom" also presupposes institutional support. That's not the case here, and hasn't been for a while. As importantly, there are also federal checks on their actions such as the various civil rights laws.

Yes, we discussed how this case is different from the usual.

Another thing you haven't really shown is that this kind of thing is "usual". Even recently, as I showed, the institution itself moved to investigate and then prosecute a cop who kidnapped, murdered and then tried to hide the corpse of a Black man while on duty.

[Pants-of-dog]

A "custom" also presupposes institutional support. That's not the case here, and hasn't been for a while.

And when did this change?

We can see when this change happened by looking at the date when the first cop was charged for killing a black person while acting in an official capacity.

If the murder of Mr. Nichols is the first time, then we can say that the institutional support was only taken away very recently.

As importantly, there are also federal checks on their actions such as the various civil rights laws.

Who enforces these laws?

Another thing you haven't really shown is that this kind of thing is "usual". Even recently, as I showed, the institution itself moved to investigate and then prosecute a cop who kidnapped, murdered and then tried to hide the corpse of a Black man while on duty.

This is the jilted ex-lover?

If the only other time a cop was convicted of murder was when they killed their ex’s new lover, and the cop was not acting in his official capacity at the time, we can safely say that this investigation is unusual, since Memphis has a long history of cops killing black people with impunity.