AOC:Puerto Rico is a Neo Colony? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15264209
Tainari88 wrote:
But, the issue with gentrification and with inequality is not a strictly Puerto Rican problem. It is world and globally based because of international capitalist actions all over the world.

Those are other issues, not imminently relevant to the current discussion.

I did review the list. I do not think for millions of people like Puerto Rico has being dependent on tax havens and stashing some shell companies in some bank fraud scene is going to be a great sustainable economy for the Caribbean over time. It is not worth it. You need to diversify.

Then you have to come up with a solution for it. Because many of those places have made a living from tax schemes and banking/financial dealings and/or heavy tourism. I don't think you can maintain PR on tourism alone, not the same maintaining a half a million people on the income generated by 7 million tourists visits, than maintaining the 3 million puerto-rican population. Not to mention it would be heavily impacted in cases of pandemic (COVID) or global recessions. Yes... you need to diversify, or... you need to specialize and integrate.

But lets be realistic for a second. What do you think are the odds that you are going to be able to keep your professionals in the event of independence? You don't think your better-paid engineers, doctors, and chemists are going to consider leaving to the mainland before any drastic changes? Even if they ultimately agree with you... they have a privileged position, the capital and education... do you truly think that they will take the risk? Do you know what it does to a country that is stripped from its talent? PR is already suffering from this, it will get 100x worse. It happens every time.

@XogGyux I got to go and interpret for a water rights conference. It is interesting. There is going to be a conflict between California, Nevada, and many other nations that depend on the Colorado River and the snowfall there in order to SURVIVE. But, agri business and greedy companies want to have absolute rights and to hell with regular people.

That is the way the world moves. I think water rights is going to be a big deal this upcoming century, maybe I'll move closer to the great lakes sometimes in the next decade :lol: .
But listen, you need to drop the chip on your shoulder. There is a lot of recent and ancient hate brewing inside, of things that occurred hundreds of years ago, nobody today alive when any of this crap happened. We are in the world trying to fix shit that our great great great great parents did. It won't be easy, and we going to do yet another bunch of crap that our great great great kids will feel ashamed from and try to erase from history. But you have got to be pragmatic. Today's English people are not responsible for colonizing America any more than today's italians/greeks/etc are responsible for when their ancestors invaded Britain. This is the slow cooking hate that does not allow the middle east to ever find peace.
#15264215
XogGyux wrote:Those are other issues, not imminently relevant to the current discussion.


Then you have to come up with a solution for it. Because many of those places have made a living from tax schemes and banking/financial dealings and/or heavy tourism. I don't think you can maintain PR on tourism alone, not the same maintaining a half a million people on the income generated by 7 million tourists visits, than maintaining the 3 million puerto-rican population. Not to mention it would be heavily impacted in cases of pandemic (COVID) or global recessions. Yes... you need to diversify, or... you need to specialize and integrate.

But lets be realistic for a second. What do you think are the odds that you are going to be able to keep your professionals in the event of independence? You don't think your better-paid engineers, doctors, and chemists are going to consider leaving to the mainland before any drastic changes? Even if they ultimately agree with you... they have a privileged position, the capital and education... do you truly think that they will take the risk? Do you know what it does to a country that is stripped from its talent? PR is already suffering from this, it will get 100x worse. It happens every time.


That is the way the world moves. I think water rights is going to be a big deal this upcoming century, maybe I'll move closer to the great lakes sometimes in the next decade :lol: .
But listen, you need to drop the chip on your shoulder. There is a lot of recent and ancient hate brewing inside, of things that occurred hundreds of years ago, nobody today alive when any of this crap happened. We are in the world trying to fix shit that our great great great great parents did. It won't be easy, and we going to do yet another bunch of crap that our great great great kids will feel ashamed from and try to erase from history. But you have got to be pragmatic. Today's English people are not responsible for colonizing America any more than today's italians/greeks/etc are responsible for when their ancestors invaded Britain. This is the slow cooking hate that does not allow the middle east to ever find peace.


@XogGyux I just finished my two-hour interpretation job.

I think we are talking past each other. This is not about ancient feuds and hatreds. You keep interpreting what I write here like if I have a chip on my shoulder or I got hatred for the USA. The USA is a nation full of immigrant homo sapiens and some more less immigrant homo sapiens and some Native Americans and African Americans, and Latinos, etc. It is everybody. Same species. Why should I hate them? Lol.

This is a politics forum. I am not some redneck racist hating on some ethnic group. I come here to argue about policies that don't work and over time in human history are proven to not be the best course of action. If you are a good political science analyst you focus on concepts like history, patterns in history, policies that fail and why they fail, and policies that work and why they work. You see the big picture. Is there a pattern? What happens with neo colonies and old colonies?

And it is relevant to this discussion in this thread XogGyux. The reason that leader in Hawaii wanted to get some land and become an independent nation and not be part of the USA system is simple. They promised Hawaii something that turned out to be lie. They thought they would be lifted out of poverty, have justice, have control of their land and their own laws and economy and it turned out to be false.

The issue of Hawaii and Puerto Rico is interesting. Hawaiians are not the majority people in Hawaii. Most Hawaiian residents do not speak Hawaiian, do not identify as Hawaiian natives and Hawaii is a state that is part of the USA. That is the pattern. I studied New Mexico too. They only made New Mexico a state in 1912 XogGyux. After it was assured that most of the people in New Mexico were not natives either. The first pattern is to get the people who were there before the USA arrival OUT of the way. Either on reservations or unable to stop the takeover and repopulate with the Eurocentric background Americans. The Pioneers like Sanford B. Dole of the Dole Pineapple fortune. Or genocide them all like they did to the Arapahoe in Colorado.

So the pattern is there.

Puerto Rico is not some empty quarter with no Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico. In fact, most of Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly Puerto Rican. The foreign element there? Cubans, Venezuelans, Dominicans, and some New Yorkers of all backgrounds. Some Jamaicans and other Caribbean nutty types. But what is the purpose of displacement eh?

I see a pattern. So did Noemi Klein in the video I put in about Battle for Paradise. Disaster capitalism.

Make a buck. Shock the desperate.

Now, you know why I think the issues of the day are about making money off of disasters because if people started questioning all these lack of equality and justice bad policies they would not be supporting them at all. Change has to happen XogGyux.

I do not have any kind of confusion about the pattern that emerges with all these very consistent policies that are about serving the needs of some tiny elites without much of a sense of justice. They are creating tremendous problems. If that is not examined and dealt with? Making a future world that is stable, peaceful, prosperous or at least LIVABLE for all of us? Is going to slip through our fingers.
#15264230
Tainari88 wrote:@XogGyux
I think we are talking past each other.

Yes, I agree.
This is not about ancient feuds and hatreds.

You say that, but them your grievances and points suggest otherwise.
You keep interpreting what I write here like if I have a chip on my shoulder or I got hatred for the USA. The USA is a nation full of immigrant homo sapiens and some more less immigrant homo sapiens and some Native Americans and African Americans, and Latinos, etc. It is everybody. Same species. Why should I hate them? Lol.

For the same reason humans have hated other humans throughout history.
And it is relevant to this discussion in this thread XogGyux. The reason that leader in Hawaii wanted to get some land and become an independent nation and not be part of the USA system is simple. They promised Hawaii something that turned out to be lie. They thought they would be lifted out of poverty, have justice, have control of their land and their own laws and economy and it turned out to be false.

I don't understand this. Everytime there is a thread about Cuba, you want to insert discussions about Puerto Rico. Now that there is a discussion about Puerto Rico, you want to talk about Hawaii, even though the situation with Hawaii is completely iddiferent, Hawaii, is after all, a full US state, unlike puerto rico. Hawaii is similar to Delaware or Florida or Texas, not PR.

The issue of Hawaii and Puerto Rico is interesting. Hawaiians are not the majority people in Hawaii. Most Hawaiian residents do not speak Hawaiian, do not identify as Hawaiian natives and Hawaii is a state that is part of the USA. That is the pattern. I studied New Mexico too. They only made New Mexico a state in 1912 XogGyux. After it was assured that most of the people in New Mexico were not natives either. The first pattern is to get the people who were there before the USA arrival OUT of the way. Either on reservations or unable to stop the takeover and repopulate with the Eurocentric background Americans. The Pioneers like Sanford B. Dole of the Dole Pineapple fortune. Or genocide them all like they did to the Arapahoe in Colorado.

Guess what, Purto Ricans are not the original people from the island either, the original people were the Tainos and they were mostly exterminated. The current residents of Puerto Rico are not parallel to the current decendent of the Cherokee or the Native Hawaiians, they are parallel to the current residents of NY or San francisco or any other part of the US. You speak spanish, not taino, your names are names are juan, pedro, maria and last names are sachez, narvez, burgos. They are not Anacaona, Hatuey, Guacanagaríx, Guama or Jibacoa.
The situation with Hawaii is not remotely similar at all.

Puerto Rico is not some empty quarter with no Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico. In fact, most of Puerto Rico is overwhelmingly Puerto Rican.

I don't see how this is relevant. You want to draw a parallel between current Puerto Rican and some previously displaced native American populations. The parallel is not there, the original Puerto Rican indigenous population was exterminated.

Now, you know why I think the issues of the day are about making money off of disasters because if people started questioning all these lack of equality and justice bad policies they would not be supporting them at all.

Just make sure that the policies you want to enact does not make everyone equally poor. That is the part of the equation most people fail to understand. Equality is useless if all you end up at the end is a homogenously (equally) poor population. There is no virtue in expanding poberty for the sake of equality.

Change has to happen XogGyux.

Change can also be for the worse. Is that what you want?
#15264242
Tainari88 wrote:@wat0n wrote:

Well, you know my position. I think independence is the only real solution. So far all the unincorporated territories of the USA have not become states. They have become independent nations or stayed in limbo undefined colonial status. But never have they become states.


It depends on how far back in time you go to say that, though. Even Hawaii would become a state, eventually.

Tainari88 wrote:What is interesting is that congress avoids committing to solving the problem. For how long is that going to continue indefinitely? I would say as long as the USA and Puerto Rico tolerate the bullshit.

If you look back in history there comes a time of reckoning for these bad relationships of power imbalances between Empires and Colonies...for India and England or the UK? The flashpoint was reached after WWII.

The escape valve of pressure is leaving for the states. And the only ones remaining will be the very wealthy with the multimillion dollar homes in gated communities and cryptocurrencies and Act 20 and 22 tax dodgers, and some greedy foolish people thinking that they don't have to deal with Puerto Ricans....and then the Ricans getting plane tickets and going to find work in some state....hoping that things improve over time on the island and they can go back someday.

Others will be lost in the shuffle and forget who they are....in the entire flight from the lack of rights.

In the end? I will never agree with selling your identity, history and culture out to please some ambition of being an American average pendejo citizen. I never will believe that is the way one deals with invasions and threats from disrespectful people with zero sense of equality.

You never gain anything with being a bootlicker in life. Not in a million years.


Well, the ones who'd need to take the first step to get Congress to even consider statehood is the Puerto Ricans themselves by formally requesting admission into the Union. If PR doesn't, then Congress won't either.

If Congress didn't let PR into the Union, well, I also agree it would only leave independence. But if it does, it would be admitted on equal terms with the other states and I wouldn't call that bootlicking at all.

XogGyux wrote:Sure, but the US would survive any sort of bad rep, and the only thing the US has to fear is bad rep, it is not as if PR can actually do anything else.
But remember, either scenario comes with bad rep. It is not as if the US abandoning million + Americans in the island is going to be any less of a bad rep. Imagine a scenario in which out of the 3m PR, about 1.8M wants independence and 1.2 don't want independence, they are perfectly happy with their lives they have.... You know, they are American citizens, and now there is a bunch of people that are threatening their safety... or at least that is sort of the way that it will be sold to the media, wether it is actually true or an exaggeration it does not matter. It is not as if the US has many good choices. To that, add some russian/china disinformation campain and the usual red/blue politic crap and all of the sudden you are finding yourself in a world that you don't know where is up or down. As a Puerto Rican, I would be afraid of any move for independence that does not have a super majority or greater (at least 75% but likely 90%) approval, anything less than that and between disinformation and selection bias/news manipulation and you may force the hand for an american intervention, regardless of wether the US truly gives a crap or not about the whole situation. I honestly don't think the federal goverment, congress, could give a crap about PR, and honestly just letting them go might be a huge relief for those that don't want to deal with the issue. But they might get forced if it is not a clean, amicable divorce, and that seems unlikely.


I don't think so, if anything the Philippines went through a similar process (Filipinos were American nationals prior to independence, although being a national is not exactly the same as being a citizen it is very easy for them to get citizenship).

XogGyux wrote:Nah, it is very asymmetrical, it is disastrous for PR, it is a bad press day for the US.


It would be a foreign policy nightmare for the US. How could it claim to be democratic if it doesn't respect the wishes of the island's citizens after refusing to put the island in equal footing with the US mainland?

XogGyux wrote:Yes

No, I don't really care if they want out. I am just very skeptical about the whole situation.
@Tainari88 Did not answer my question either. You tell me, which Caribbean independent island-countries do you think are doing better than PR today? I'll give you another, of the countries that have acquired their independence in the last 50 years, how many of them do you think are doing significantly better, and/or would you trade place with PR?
I get this all the time. In my job, every time there is an abnormal lab, or a new symptom or something else, we get a call. Patients want us to do something, nurses want us to do something, families want us to do something, and other physicians might want us to do something. It turns out many times, doing nothing, is the right thing to do. Granted, we don't always have the benefit of knowing WHEN doing nothing is the right thing to do. It is not for me to decide. I like to have the discussion, and frankly, there is always a lot of anti-US nonsense being spewed when topics like this get discussed and I am not liking that, because I have said over and over, despite its many, many defects, the US is by far an upgrade compared to the prior alternatives and the other current would-be world rulers so I am not necessarily enjoying this blanket anti-US hate.


Do you think they are better off with the current status quo than being independent? This is assuming statehood isn't an option.

IIRC over a fifth of PR's population has moved to the US mainland, I don't think this is for no reason. OTOH, it is indeed possible they'd be worse off as a result of losing federal funding. But if they made that decision, it'd be their right - no matter how stupid it is.

XogGyux wrote:Sure. Because politicians and world leaders have an excellent track record for behaving like grown-ups. How much pot did you smoke today? It is my duty to recommend you cut down on your hallucinogenics :lol: .


Sure, which would then point towards confrontation. I am not sure PR would be denied admission into the US though.

I can imagine Democrats being in favor, and I don't see why couldn't some Republicans be convinced in this issue. If anything, those Boricuas who want to become a state should emphasize the island isn't as liberal as some blue states.

XogGyux wrote:And that is what I am afraid of. It happened to my country, I honestly won't enjoy if PR fucks this shit again, especially with the track record that already exists. This populist shit never ends well.


I agree, but no society is completely immune to populism. Trump is definitely a right-wing populist and did a fair amount of damage, even if this country's institutions were able to hold him off.

It's hard to know if PR would manage to resist that kind of push, but ultimately it'd be their problem.

XogGyux wrote:I am not so sure about that. I have a strong suspicion that even in the absolute best case scenario, PR independence is not going to substantially improve the quality of life of Puerto Ricans in the islands. And although I don't think it is a guaranteed outcome, I think there are higher odds that they end up in a bigger hole than they are now. It can ALWAYS get worse. What are the realistic odds that it will get better? Let's ignore the reality for one second, just the PERCEPTION could be enough for capital to flight away from PR or to have mass exodus of Puerto Ricans out of the island if they feel an independence is around the corner. Have you heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Just having 10% of workers flee the country, or investors cash out their capital can trigger a chain reaction that destroys confidence and perpetuates a vicious cycle.
I am honestly not able to see a reasonable and likely scenario in which at the end of the journey they are better off. I have not heard any solid plan, just platitudes of how bad it is now and how great it is going to get. Fidel also promised greatness and equality, and fairness.... and it destroyed a country, it consumed its people and its culture. Do you think companies exiting PR is unlikely? Add some custom paperwork and all of the sudden they might re-think if it is worth staying. There are businesses struggling in the UK right now due to problems with customs since bretxit. You think PR will manage to make a cleaner exit? :lol: Im skeptical.


Puerto Rico has already experienced a mass exodus, though.

The current status quo is also not particularly great for investment. The Marine Merchant Act of 1920 (called Jones Act, but shouldn't be confused with the Jones Act that gave Puerto Ricans US citizenship) is widely believed to hinder the island's development (and also damage the development of the other territories, Hawai'i and Alaska) by making any foreign cargo destined to PR to first go to ports in the mainland and then they can go to the island.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_ ... 20#Effects

It's no wonder Puerto Ricans want statehood if one of their goals is to repeal laws like this one.

XogGyux wrote:Well, they are more obsessed about what will get them re-elected than what it is actually right to do. Fuck, these people need term limits ASAP.


There aren't any term limits in PR at all?
#15264251
wat0n wrote:
I don't think so, if anything the Philippines went through a similar process (Filipinos were American nationals prior to independence, although being a national is not exactly the same as being a citizen it is very easy for them to get citizenship).

Even if you consider that.. You think the Philippines are doing better than Hawaii and/or Puerto rico? They have been independent for over half a century and they are still dealing with dictators and corrupt politicians. I am sure we are still going to find a reason to blame washington DC. for all their perils as well.

It would be a foreign policy nightmare for the US.

As opposed to what? The US is accustomed to dealing with embarrassing shit. They invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam war. Trump was a foreign policy nightmare that lasted 4 years. I don't think a PR intervention would be seen as particularly out of the ordinary. Now, given the specific geopolitical nature of the world today, and in particularly I am thinking Taiwan, it is possible you can craft a scenario in which a parallel can be drawn to the China/Taiwan situation. Let me be clear, it is not the same situation AT ALL, but with some information manipulation and propaganda there are enough parallels that you could twist a narrative. There are ofcourse nations that have a vested interest in causing political and social upheaval so I don't totally dismiss your point. I think what you are saying has some truth in it, I think it would be nightmarish for the US to intervene in PR in case of a secession scenario. But.... allowing a secession can be just as nightmarish depending on the factors. So it is a no-win scenario, and in no-win scenario.

How could it claim to be democratic if it doesn't respect the wishes of the island's citizens after refusing to put the island in equal footing with the US mainland?

Simple, the US is protecting the rights of the US citizens in PR that don't want independence from the US. Actually it goes beyond that, the right of puerto ricans that live in mainland... and the right of americans, that is american territory, all american's rights would be at stake.

Do you think they are better off with the current status quo than being independent?

Yes I do. I have no reason to believe otherwise. PR have income and standard of living that is superior to most other comparable countries. The islands @Tainari88 mentioned, most of them are also territory of other larger "empires". The independent nations are not doing particularly well. Most of latin-america is not doing better than PR. Mexico sure, and when they are not foking up their economy maybe the chilean and argentinans but even comparing those nations is not really fair, they are part of the continent so their economies tend to be better just because of that, not to mention they have mineral resources they can exploit, etc.

This is assuming statehood isn't an option.

I think it is an option. I think it is far more likely than independence actually.

IIRC over a fifth of PR's population has moved to the US mainland, I don't think this is for no reason.

I don't know for sure the actual numbers or how to interpret them. Presumably, there are 5million Puerto Ricans in mainland US, which means there are 2 million more puerto ricans than in the island. The issue is, a lot of those were born in mainland US. Do you count them as puertoricans? Whats the difference? Both are American citizens, both have the same culture, ancestry, customs. At this point you would be drawing very artificial lines that I am not comfortable drawing. Can you imagine how messy an independence movement, when more people that identify themselves as puertorican live outside of puerto rico itself? These people don't get a vote?

OTOH, it is indeed possible they'd be worse off as a result of losing federal funding. But if they made that decision, it'd be their right - no matter how stupid it is.

I 100% agree with you in this, if that is what they want, they should get it. Listen, if you want to eat poop, that's on you bro, go ahead, eat as much as you want, but that is not going to stop me from warning you of the smell, the disease, and the shit taste. As I have said before, I have no horse on this race. From a pure entertainment viewpoint, I'd be interested to see how an independence movement forms. The problem with that is that it comes with human suffering and misery, or at least that is my theory, therefore, I rather not see it happen. Cuban history tell the story of many cuban independists and PR independists that would get together and conspire to get both countries free from spain, as if they were brothers with the same cause. And they probably were. But look at what happened to Cuba.... it is sad for PR to be asking for a similar fate after seeing their brothers fuck themselves so foking bad.

Sure, which would then point towards confrontation. I am not sure PR would be denied admission into the US though.

I can imagine Democrats being in favor, and I don't see why couldn't some Republicans be convinced in this issue. If anything, those Boricuas who want to become a state should emphasize the island isn't as liberal as some blue states.

I agree with you. They just need to play the game. It is a dirty, slow-moving game, but if they learn to play it, they can succeed. You think it is impossible to get puerto-rican heritage representatives and senators to represent other states? Such as texas/arizona/california? Similar to AOC... Is it possible to get some republicans sympathetic to their issues? Absolutely. It won't be quick? But a quick independence is not any option anyways.

The current status quo is also not particularly great for investment. The Marine Merchant Act of 1920 (called Jones Act, but shouldn't be confused with the Jones Act that gave Puerto Ricans US citizenship) is widely believed to hinder the island's development (and also damage the development of the other territories, Hawai'i and Alaska) by making any foreign cargo destined to PR to first go to ports in the mainland and then they can go to the island.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_ ... 20#Effects

It's no wonder Puerto Ricans want statehood if one of their goals is to repeal laws like this one.

Well, that law is not really to target puerto ricans, they are just a casualty not the intended victim. There are plenty of people that want it repealed or at least adjusted.

There aren't any term limits in PR at all?

I meant for our politicians, such as senators and representatives. They end up spending more time in getting themselves re-elected by pandering to their base than to actually improve their lives.
#15264254
XogGyux wrote:Even if you consider that.. You think the Philippines are doing better than Hawaii and/or Puerto rico? They have been independent for over half a century and they are still dealing with dictators and corrupt politicians. I am sure we are still going to find a reason to blame washington DC. for all their perils as well.


Indeed, and the same could happen to Puerto Rico. But it'd be their problem.

XogGyux wrote:As opposed to what? The US is accustomed to dealing with embarrassing shit. They invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam war. Trump was a foreign policy nightmare that lasted 4 years. I don't think a PR intervention would be seen as particularly out of the ordinary. Now, given the specific geopolitical nature of the world today, and in particularly I am thinking Taiwan, it is possible you can craft a scenario in which a parallel can be drawn to the China/Taiwan situation. Let me be clear, it is not the same situation AT ALL, but with some information manipulation and propaganda there are enough parallels that you could twist a narrative. There are ofcourse nations that have a vested interest in causing political and social upheaval so I don't totally dismiss your point. I think what you are saying has some truth in it, I think it would be nightmarish for the US to intervene in PR in case of a secession scenario. But.... allowing a secession can be just as nightmarish depending on the factors. So it is a no-win scenario, and in no-win scenario.


Indeed, there's no way the US wins if PR asked to be admitted into the Union and it said no. Neither option, in that case, is great.

And the US would recover as far as its image and foreign policy are concerned but only after letting PR become independent, I think.

XogGyux wrote:Simple, the US is protecting the rights of the US citizens in PR that don't want independence from the US. Actually it goes beyond that, the right of puerto ricans that live in mainland... and the right of americans, that is american territory, all american's rights would be at stake.


I wouldn't be so sure. I think those Puerto Ricans who are citizens would keep their citizenship and be allowed to move to the mainland if they wish.

This isn't the same as a state seceding, which is not an irrelevant point to consider.

XogGyux wrote:Yes I do. I have no reason to believe otherwise. PR have income and standard of living that is superior to most other comparable countries. The islands @Tainari88 mentioned, most of them are also territory of other larger "empires". The independent nations are not doing particularly well. Most of latin-america is not doing better than PR. Mexico sure, and when they are not foking up their economy maybe the chilean and argentinans but even comparing those nations is not really fair, they are part of the continent so their economies tend to be better just because of that, not to mention they have mineral resources they can exploit, etc.


Right, although the island is also experiencing a rather long period of stagnation. I do agree though that PR is still doing better than all of independent Latin America.

XogGyux wrote:I think it is an option. I think it is far more likely than independence actually.


It SHOULD be, that's what common sense suggests. The alternative would be worse for both sides, were PR to formally ask admission into the Union (which it hasn't).

XogGyux wrote:I don't know for sure the actual numbers or how to interpret them. Presumably, there are 5million Puerto Ricans in mainland US, which means there are 2 million more puerto ricans than in the island. The issue is, a lot of those were born in mainland US. Do you count them as puertoricans? Whats the difference? Both are American citizens, both have the same culture, ancestry, customs. At this point you would be drawing very artificial lines that I am not comfortable drawing. Can you imagine how messy an independence movement, when more people that identify themselves as puertorican live outside of puerto rico itself? These people don't get a vote?


Indeed, all of those things are to be factored in. I'd imagine PR would pass a law of return for them.

And it would be messy, don't doubt that for a second, even if it went peacefully.

XogGyux wrote:I 100% agree with you in this, if that is what they want, they should get it. Listen, if you want to eat poop, that's on you bro, go ahead, eat as much as you want, but that is not going to stop me from warning you of the smell, the disease, and the shit taste. As I have said before, I have no horse on this race. From a pure entertainment viewpoint, I'd be interested to see how an independence movement forms. The problem with that is that it comes with human suffering and misery, or at least that is my theory, therefore, I rather not see it happen. Cuban history tell the story of many cuban independists and PR independists that would get together and conspire to get both countries free from spain, as if they were brothers with the same cause. And they probably were. But look at what happened to Cuba.... it is sad for PR to be asking for a similar fate after seeing their brothers fuck themselves so foking bad.


It would all depend on themselves, though. It's hard to know but as far as purely economic concerns are concerned I agree PR would be left worse off. But getting independence is not a purely economic issue.

XogGyux wrote:I agree with you. They just need to play the game. It is a dirty, slow-moving game, but if they learn to play it, they can succeed. You think it is impossible to get puerto-rican heritage representatives and senators to represent other states? Such as texas/arizona/california? Similar to AOC... Is it possible to get some republicans sympathetic to their issues? Absolutely. It won't be quick? But a quick independence is not any option anyways.


Indeed. And the fact that most Puerto Ricans aren't keen on abortion or as liberal as Bay Area Democrats are should work in their favor. Democrats wouldn't be able to turn back either, as it could most definitely hurt their base.

XogGyux wrote:Well, that law is not really to target puerto ricans, they are just a casualty not the intended victim. There are plenty of people that want it repealed or at least adjusted.


Indeed, but they are likely among those who are hurt the most. By virtue of location, I think one would expect PR to be a major shipping hub.

XogGyux wrote:I meant for our politicians, such as senators and representatives. They end up spending more time in getting themselves re-elected by pandering to their base than to actually improve their lives.


Oh, absolutely. Wouldn't be surprised if Puerto Rico also didn't have term limits.

@Tainari88 does PR have term limits for its elected officials?
#15264259
wat0n wrote:Indeed, and the same could happen to Puerto Rico. But it'd be their problem.

Well, if you find a person smashing their head on a wall on the street... "it'd be their problem" but do you ignore it and keep your merry way?

I wouldn't be so sure. I think those Puerto Ricans who are citizens would keep their citizenship and be allowed to move to the mainland if they wish.

Well, all Puerto Ricans are American citizens. And probably, if talks about independence were to solidify and increase in frequency, I am certain a lot of them will make preparations and flee the island way before things become official. That would actually be catastrophic for PR, the people more likely to leave are those that are more educated and have degrees, the young (those that can start a new life somewhere else).
You can have people that sympathize with independence and want independence, but that flee regardless because they don't want to be part of the chaos and rebuilding process. If enough key people flew, the country will have trouble maintaining its industry, they might flee as well for similar reasons.
And we are only considering a bilateral, mutually agreed separation here. If the US is a bit grumpy about the situation and just put a tiny pinky, not even a thumb, on the scale, PR will forever be destroyed.
What happens if the US says. UK PR you can have your independence, but starting tomorrow we will not accept any PR into the mainland without first applying for a visa, so if you want to move here you got to do it today. And you know the FDA already makes it very hard, if not impossible to import drugs and devices from other countries. Instantly the pharmaceutical and medical devices industry of PR would banish overnight, do you think the FDA will change their rules and/or very-slow and expensive approval process for drugs to accomodate puerto rico? No they won't. The moment PR is no longer american territory it will have to follow the same rules as everyone else, they will have to follow custom laws, apply for approval to the FDA for medical and rugs, etc. They are complaining about Jone's law? Wait until they have to deal with the FDA. That's about 70% of their exports right there. You think PR independence is likely? I'll believe it after I see the pharmaceutical companies flee the country.

I do agree though that PR is still doing better than all of independent Latin America.

That is the real measuring stick. The US is a massive economy, massive country, massive consumer. Even without any sort of malice or intent of harm or dubious operation, existing in close proximity to the US is already a disadvantage for small countries with small economies. It is like you sailing on a tiny boat next to one of those behemoth cruise ships, even if they are not actively trying to ram you over, you got to be careful because the waves created or the wind going around the ship, or the visibility they are all against you. The same thing happens with the US around, it has a "gravity" of its own.

Indeed, all of those things are to be factored in. I'd imagine PR would pass a law of return for them.

I am sure, but that is going to make inequality, gentrification and social unrest even worse. You created 2 classes of citizens now, those that make $$ of money and those that are poor as fuck. The nice apartment in the center of sanjuan or the beach house is now going to be owned by a wealthier Puerto Rican that lives in newyork and only goes to PR for vacation and partying. This shit happens in Cuba as well, as soon as some rules and laws were losened, you started having cubans that come to the US to work like mules doing near-minimal wage work and then they go on vacation to cuba because they live like kings over there and everyone treats them as such because they got money. I don't think that's healthy for a country or ethnicity.

It would all depend on themselves, though. It's hard to know but as far as purely economic concerns are concerned I agree PR would be left worse off. But getting independence is not a purely economic issue.

Well, the main objection put forth by @Tainari88 is mostly economical, other points can be addressed but have not been put forth.

Indeed, but they are likely among those who are hurt the most. By virtue of location, I think one would expect PR to be a major shipping hub.

I wouldn't count on that. Thats not how shipping works. Why is it that there are no other Caribbean islands becoming such hubs? There is a reason for that. I don't know all the details but seeing that it is not the case suggests that there is a good reason (economical) for it not to be the case.
#15264261
XogGyux wrote:Well, if you find a person smashing their head on a wall on the street... "it'd be their problem" but do you ignore it and keep your merry way?


At most, I'd ask around what's going on and take it from there. But I'd not try to force him to stop, you never know what a crazy person can do to you.

XogGyux wrote:Well, all Puerto Ricans are American citizens. And probably, if talks about independence were to solidify and increase in frequency, I am certain a lot of them will make preparations and flee the island way before things become official. That would actually be catastrophic for PR, the people more likely to leave are those that are more educated and have degrees, the young (those that can start a new life somewhere else).
You can have people that sympathize with independence and want independence, but that flee regardless because they don't want to be part of the chaos and rebuilding process. If enough key people flew, the country will have trouble maintaining its industry, they might flee as well for similar reasons.
And we are only considering a bilateral, mutually agreed separation here. If the US is a bit grumpy about the situation and just put a tiny pinky, not even a thumb, on the scale, PR will forever be destroyed.
What happens if the US says. UK PR you can have your independence, but starting tomorrow we will not accept any PR into the mainland without first applying for a visa, so if you want to move here you got to do it today. And you know the FDA already makes it very hard, if not impossible to import drugs and devices from other countries. Instantly the pharmaceutical and medical devices industry of PR would banish overnight, do you think the FDA will change their rules and/or very-slow and expensive approval process for drugs to accomodate puerto rico? No they won't. The moment PR is no longer american territory it will have to follow the same rules as everyone else, they will have to follow custom laws, apply for approval to the FDA for medical and rugs, etc. They are complaining about Jone's law? Wait until they have to deal with the FDA. That's about 70% of their exports right there. You think PR independence is likely? I'll believe it after I see the pharmaceutical companies flee the country.


No disagreement here. But I can imagine some people would rather risk destroying everything for the sake of ending stagnation or a situation they deem unfair.

XogGyux wrote:That is the real measuring stick. The US is a massive economy, massive country, massive consumer. Even without any sort of malice or intent of harm or dubious operation, existing in close proximity to the US is already a disadvantage for small countries with small economies. It is like you sailing on a tiny boat next to one of those behemoth cruise ships, even if they are not actively trying to ram you over, you got to be careful because the waves created or the wind going around the ship, or the visibility they are all against you. The same thing happens with the US around, it has a "gravity" of its own.


No disagreement here. If Puerto Rico was poorer than the rest of Latin America, I'd guess the independence movement would be far stronger than it is.

XogGyux wrote:I am sure, but that is going to make inequality, gentrification and social unrest even worse. You created 2 classes of citizens now, those that make $$ of money and those that are poor as fuck. The nice apartment in the center of sanjuan or the beach house is now going to be owned by a wealthier Puerto Rican that lives in newyork and only goes to PR for vacation and partying. This shit happens in Cuba as well, as soon as some rules and laws were losened, you started having cubans that come to the US to work like mules doing near-minimal wage work and then they go on vacation to cuba because they live like kings over there and everyone treats them as such because they got money. I don't think that's healthy for a country or ethnicity.


Well, actually I'd guess gentrification would not be an issue simply because it would not be attractive for those American Puerto Ricans to move there en masse - purely due to the impoverished state of the island after independence.

I do agree with the rest of your points. As far as economic concerns go, it doesn't really make sense to push for independence. But the threat of independence can be used to get a better deal, like statehood.

XogGyux wrote:Well, the main objection put forth by @Tainari88 is mostly economical, other points can be addressed but have not been put forth.


Honestly, I think her concerns are not purely economical. She may elaborate if she wishes, I don't speak for her, but there's a lot going on with national pride when @Tainari88 says she doesn't want to be a bootlicker.

XogGyux wrote:I wouldn't count on that. Thats not how shipping works. Why is it that there are no other Caribbean islands becoming such hubs? There is a reason for that. I don't know all the details but seeing that it is not the case suggests that there is a good reason (economical) for it not to be the case.


Since PR is an US territory, I don't think you can compare it with other Caribbean countries here, though - PR has far more access to American markets than the Caribbean countries. PR could be perfectly an entry to the US as far as trade is concerned. Furthermore, all its foreign trade would become cheaper by eliminating the need for shipping to go through the mainland first, with all the consequences for its good-producing industries. I find it hard to see how is it that this state of affairs isn't a drag on the island's economy.

This used to fall into the "bad but not that big of a deal" category because PR used to have some very large federal corporate and income tax benefits, but those benefits were repealed in 2006. The economy has stagnated ever since - this isn't the only reason, of course, as its crappy politicians are themselves part of the problem but losing massive federal tax exemptions is most certainly damaging. Ultimately, statehood would allow PR to try to simply be treated just like other states or (at least) be compensated for the damage done to its shipping. This would probably become more feasible since there would then be 3 states pushing for the same, all in a Congress that is evenly split for the most part.
#15264263
Puerto Rico and the island colonies of the U.S. are likely to be seriously impacted by climate chaos. Given that the U.S. will likely have its hands full just trying to cope with the coming droughts, extreme temperatures, and flooding in the 50 states, the nation might want to divest itself of problematic territories.
#15264264
Robert Urbanek wrote:Puerto Rico and the island colonies of the U.S. are likely to be seriously impacted by climate chaos. Given that the U.S. will likely have its hands full just trying to cope with the coming droughts, extreme temperatures, and flooding in the 50 states, the nation might want to divest itself of problematic territories.


That might be true Robert Urbanek. But I worry about the how of it? Because if the US government does another Treaty of Paris but with some other government that wants to colonize us again? For them to sell us off for some money like the greedy callous imperialists they have always been? I do not think it will work this time.

You can only push people so far before the violence happens. And the USA has a lot of violence with the mass shootings, school shootings and domestic far-right coups and terror plots, and far-right psychos wanting to blow up electrical power stations....you want to add Puerto Rican pissed-off statehooders disillusioned by their stupid dreams of being Yankees in the Republican party?

An orderly transition needs to happen and allow Puerto Rico to build a good plan for self-governance. Again, the UN has really great plans on how to decolonize. It has happened before in the past and in the present. That is what international organizations do. Come up with plans that are about different nations with conflicts hammering it out.
#15264271
wat0n wrote:At most, I'd ask around what's going on and take it from there. But I'd not try to force him to stop, you never know what a crazy person can do to you.





No disagreement here. But I can imagine some people would rather risk destroying everything for the sake of ending stagnation or a situation they deem unfair.



No disagreement here. If Puerto Rico was poorer than the rest of Latin America, I'd guess the independence movement would be far stronger than it is.



Well, actually I'd guess gentrification would not be an issue simply because it would not be attractive for those American Puerto Ricans to move there en masse - purely due to the impoverished state of the island after independence.

I do agree with the rest of your points. As far as economic concerns go, it doesn't really make sense to push for independence. But the threat of independence can be used to get a better deal, like statehood.



Honestly, I think her concerns are not purely economical. She may elaborate if she wishes, I don't speak for her, but there's a lot going on with national pride when @Tainari88 says she doesn't want to be a bootlicker.



Since PR is an US territory, I don't think you can compare it with other Caribbean countries here, though - PR has far more access to American markets than the Caribbean countries. PR could be perfectly an entry to the US as far as trade is concerned. Furthermore, all its foreign trade would become cheaper by eliminating the need for shipping to go through the mainland first, with all the consequences for its good-producing industries. I find it hard to see how is it that this state of affairs isn't a drag on the island's economy.

This used to fall into the "bad but not that big of a deal" category because PR used to have some very large federal corporate and income tax benefits, but those benefits were repealed in 2006. The economy has stagnated ever since - this isn't the only reason, of course, as its crappy politicians are themselves part of the problem but losing massive federal tax exemptions is most certainly damaging. Ultimately, statehood would allow PR to try to simply be treated just like other states or (at least) be compensated for the damage done to its shipping. This would probably become more feasible since there would then be 3 states pushing for the same, all in a Congress that is evenly split for the most part.


Puerto Rico has to deal with the Jones Act from 1920 because it is much larger market than the US Virgin Islands. The USVI does not have the Jones Act because it is a much smaller market and might cause economic complete ruin in the USVI. On top of that most of the Virgin Islanders do a lot of shopping in Puerto Rico and the US Merchant Marine gets paid through that as well.

@wat0n you keep making the mistake of thinking PR has representation and some political power on the Hill. It does not. It can't join the other three states to bring down the Jones Act. And even if the other states affected by the Jones Act are successful in repealing it in their states? The other states do not identify with the problems we have. Why? Mainly IGNORANCE. The amount of ignorance about what is going on in the outlying territories of the USA is massive and deep. The propaganda is bad. I bet you did not know jack shit about us either Wat0n and you live in Chicago, and Chicago has a massive amount of Boricuas living there.

All the solutions many pro statehood fools come up with is always comparing us to a state of the USA or an independent nation recognized by the UN council. We have NO STATUS which means NO ACTION, which means no solutions. No solutions that are conventional.

Go back and see how you can negotiate with a nation that is about shooting and bombing, military expenditures, invasions, and badly informed people on the situation. Media that is full of dumbness all day long about historical contexts, and so on and so forth. Really put yourself in the shoes of Puerto Ricans. Statehooders or pro-Independence people trying to move the needle in their direction. How do you do it without either being sanctioned and blocked like the other island with a similar flag to ours....and or being invaded like Grenada, and other situations where the US claimed that they were threatened by a tiny island in the Caribbean and that is why the invasion was necessary to protect themselves from the terror they felt. See Grenada from 1983.

I like Bianca Graulau's coverage of the statehood option. She interviews Carlos Romero Barcelo, el Caballo. Pro statehood dude. I hate him since he was found out to be involved in the Cerro Maravilla trials also in the early 80s....but the man sold statehood as STATEHOOD is for the POOR. More welfare checks and food stamps and better social services. That contradiction is huge with the traditional conservatives of the Republican party Wat0n who hate welfare and never agree with it. if you are a Republican small government conservative why are you promoting that kind of agenda in Puerto Rico if you want to be part of the USA as the 51st state?

I can answer that one for you...you promote it because telling Puerto Ricans on low incomes (which is half the island or more) that you will lose your welfare check and food stamps, your veteran's benefits and your disability checks (though less in amounts awarded than the stateside checks) is the cuco for the Puerto Rican poor. I am fucked financially and if I vote for independence I will be more fucked. But if you scratch the surface of most Puerto Ricans they are not rah rah Americans. They are Puerto Ricans first. That is reality Wat0n. It is obvious.

Two videos, the first is about Statehood options. And the second is about asking Puerto Ricans of all political walks of life and opinions if they consider themselves Puerto Ricans first. A lot of statehooders say they are both. But? Many just say they are pro-statehood for the checks. It is very old news.

The problem is that once there is no check flowing in or any real income of any sort? Why stick with the statehood is for the poor line? Where is the incentive?

The young people are increasingly pro-independence. Why? They grew up from the eighties onward in deep recessions and bad financial prospects. 2006 was really bad. That pushed more problems. Then came the incompetence.



https://youtube.com/shorts/Vyf8LD4Ew_Y?feature=share



Last edited by Tainari88 on 08 Feb 2023 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
#15264274
wat0n wrote:@Tainari88 Puerto Rico doesn't have much political power now, but it would if it joined the Union. If so, yes, that 1920 act would probably be reformed so PR can trade normally.


If it joined the union? Have you considered that if an unincorporated territory is allowed to join the union that USVI wants to be a state, and Guam, and American Samoa and the Solomon islands and how many states are going to be piggy backing that move? Most of them are going to be non Europeans and it is true that most will be liberals and voting Democrat. How do you get past the racists in the Republican party that are barely semi believers or non believers in popular votes? Plus, people stateside who love English first, and English only and English shit for all time?

Lol. You are asking for a multicultural, multilingual nation that is willing to take on BILLIONS in debt generated by Wall Street Hedge Fund managers and billions in infrastructure money they will have to invest in Puerto Rico. Including roads, schools, etc. Plus the crypto millionaires are in Puerto Rico to not PAY taxes. if you become a state you are FORCED to pay taxes. Price of real estate goes up like in Hawaii. Boricuas sin dinero, pull out for the ghettoes of the mainland.

But I thought statehood was about prosperity and Puerto Ricans making money and living better? And me speaking Spanish freely forever and bilingual education for all? Fuck? It is not about that....I did not vote for that at all....who LIED?

It is interesting Wat0n. It is a confrontation with neo colonialism. :D
#15264275
Tainari88 wrote:That might be true Robert Urbanek. But I worry about the how of it? Because if the US government does another Treaty of Paris but with some other government that wants to colonize us again? For them to sell us off for some money like the greedy callous imperialists they have always been? I do not think it will work this time.

You can only push people so far before the violence happens. And the USA has a lot of violence with the mass shootings, school shootings and domestic far-right coups and terror plots, and far-right psychos wanting to blow up electrical power stations....you want to add Puerto Rican pissed-off statehooders disillusioned by their stupid dreams of being Yankees in the Republican party?

An orderly transition needs to happen and allow Puerto Rico to build a good plan for self-governance. Again, the UN has really great plans on how to decolonize. It has happened before in the past and in the present. That is what international organizations do. Come up with plans that are about different nations with conflicts hammering it out.


I don't suggest selling Puerto Rico to another country, but unilaterally giving them independence, perhaps with a 10-year schedule and a few billion dollars in aid.
#15264280
@Robert Urbanek What are You going to tell Jenniffer González, Pedro Pierluisi, Melinda Romero, Ricky Rosselló and thousands of Wannabe Yanks? Sorry just pack your bags and pick a state to live in? You are going to have some corrupto types angry ... jajajaja
#15264290
Tainari88 wrote:If it joined the union? Have you considered that if an unincorporated territory is allowed to join the union that USVI wants to be a state, and Guam, and American Samoa and the Solomon islands and how many states are going to be piggy backing that move? Most of them are going to be non Europeans and it is true that most will be liberals and voting Democrat. How do you get past the racists in the Republican party that are barely semi believers or non believers in popular votes? Plus, people stateside who love English first, and English only and English shit for all time?

Lol. You are asking for a multicultural, multilingual nation that is willing to take on BILLIONS in debt generated by Wall Street Hedge Fund managers and billions in infrastructure money they will have to invest in Puerto Rico. Including roads, schools, etc. Plus the crypto millionaires are in Puerto Rico to not PAY taxes. if you become a state you are FORCED to pay taxes. Price of real estate goes up like in Hawaii. Boricuas sin dinero, pull out for the ghettoes of the mainland.

But I thought statehood was about prosperity and Puerto Ricans making money and living better? And me speaking Spanish freely forever and bilingual education for all? Fuck? It is not about that....I did not vote for that at all....who LIED?

It is interesting Wat0n. It is a confrontation with neo colonialism. :D


If you want that type of confrontation with neocolonialism, then yes, you'd hold your politicians accountable and pressure them to ask to be admitted into the union. They voted for it after all, maybe those in the other territories don't want to. But Puertorriqueños do, since that's what they voted for.

That's all I've been saying, really.

Unlike you, I don't take it as a given the US would say no and seek to keep the status quo no matter what. There are good reasons for the US to just admit PR.
#15264291
@wat0n You need to give me the reasons of why a bought off sly politician from a majority party might admit Puerto Rico?

Who benefits from admitting PR? PR generates money for the corporations with sweetheart deals, they got soldiers for their endless wars and tax havens for Crypto millionaires. They can shoot and kill independentista boricuas and let them bleed out on the floor....pollute Vieques with depleted uranium causing cáncer in Puerto Ricans for war games, they can get away with crimes without giving us full rights.

How do You get progress? Without violencia? Answer that?
#15264293
wat0n wrote:At most, I'd ask around what's going on and take it from there. But I'd not try to force him to stop, you never know what a crazy person can do to you.

Nobody is saying you have to tackle him, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to consider calling 911 and see if the person needs psychiatric or medical evaluation. I assume that is the most common/reasonable, after all, that is how i get more of my psychiatric admissions, so most people are doing something like that.

No disagreement here. But I can imagine some people would rather risk destroying everything for the sake of ending stagnation or a situation they deem unfair.

Isen't that the behavior of a child? I cannot have my doll, so I am going to remove the doll so my sister cannot enjoy playing with it?

Well, actually I'd guess gentrification would not be an issue simply because it would not be attractive for those American Puerto Ricans to move there en masse - purely due to the impoverished state of the island after independence.

Oh, they probably won't move there. They'd probably do what they do in other countries in which they just go visit. But because their income difference is so massive, I can afford to have an apartment or house basically uninhabited for most of the year and it is my vacation home. Or perhaps I have some servant taking care of it when I am off. It happens in cuba, I have family members that despite my disapproval and disdain do this kind of crap.

Honestly, I think her concerns are not purely economical. She may elaborate if she wishes, I don't speak for her, but there's a lot going on with national pride when @Tainari88 says she doesn't want to be a bootlicker.

I also suspect the same thing. As I child I was taught all of the history of Cuba's colonization, Marti and how people died to get Cuba freed, and the whole point is to insert the emotional hook to keep you invested in the idea regardless of whether it made sense or not. It is emotional blackmail. And if you are not fully aligned with the idea of living in misery as a slave, then you are a materialistic scum. :lol: Bullshit, it is all brain showing nonsense.
It is simple, I care about the quality of life, about safety, about your opportunities to grow, and your opportunities to leave and find an alternative live if the prior one is not working well.

Since PR is an US territory, I don't think you can compare it with other Caribbean countries here, though - PR has far more access to American markets than the Caribbean countries. PR could be perfectly an entry to the US as far as trade is concerned.

PR could greatly benefit from an increasingly more protective US. Now that situation with china is souring and we are trying to restart more industries (semiconductors? Cars? etc) within the US, PR could have a competitive advantage due to lower salaries. Could. Not sure. Independence throws pretty much anything out of the window. In fact, the current PR economy would disappear overnight without ACTIVE cooperation with the US to avoid crumbling.
It wouldn't take PR to just be "independent" if that happens, we would need customs between the countries, you know... like any other country, and now all of our laws and regulations for any sort of import from PR come into effect. So for PR just to keep the economical "status quo" after an independence, they would have to negiciate with the US to keep things regarding drugs and medical equipment from requiring a shiton more paperwork. That takes a willing, active and cooperative US. What are the chances of the US becoming a willing, active and cooperative part of such disolution of relationship? I am very skeptic.
Now... there is the other option, the US does not actively working towards helping PR become independent, but does not put a roadblock either. It is kind of a "shrug" "I don't care do what you want" approach. Even this sort of approach would be disruptive for puerto rico, it wouldn't even take an active role of the US screwing them up. Like I said before, most of their export would require the FDA to actively approve PR's drugs and devices, etc.

Furthermore, all its foreign trade would become cheaper by eliminating the need for shipping to go through the mainland first, with all the consequences for its good-producing industries.

How is going through 2 customs cheaper? Go to PR first and PR's customs, then repackage and send them to US port? Seems odd.
In a scenario in which PR is independent, the US cannot have a special treatment for shipment between PR and the US. At some point, a pack of drugs will be found, like we find them in any other port or custom places of the country and containers coming anywhere in the world, except the one from PR will be politicized 100x worse because the relationships are going to be sour, and that is going to be the end of it. But again, I don't understand how stopping ships in PR instead of going directly to mainland is supposed to be an advantage at all, usually, the opposite is preferred.
this isn't the only reason, of course, as its crappy politicians are themselves part of the problem but losing massive federal tax exemptions is most certainly damaging.

Independence won't rid them from their crappy politicians.

[quote]Ultimately, statehood would allow PR to try to simply be treated just like other states or (at least) be compensated for
This is a relic of prior times, but one that some interests have kept alive. To be honest, given the issues going on world wide, perhaps it might not be prudent to completely walk away from it, but perhaps we can encourage the respective industries directly rather than to put these silly restrictions. AKA subsidize shipbuilding rather than Jones Act. But yeah, it'd be fair to revisit.
#15264298
Tainari88 wrote:@wat0n You need to give me the reasons of why a bought off sly politician from a majority party might admit Puerto Rico?


Depends on the party:

Democrats: They would face immense pressure from not just Boricuas but Hispanics in general, along with it being the politically correct thing to do. The Democrats can't afford to alienate Hispanic voters like that.

Republicans: Some could jump in by emphasizing Boricuas in the island are most definitely not as progressive as West Coast liberals are, if anything, it seems PR could be a battleground state.

Both: Think about the consequences of saying no and kicking off a serious push for independence, one the US would be widely seen as the responsible party both inside and outside Puerto Rico and the US.

Tainari88 wrote:Who benefits from admitting PR? PR generates money for the corporations with sweetheart deals, they got soldiers for their endless wars and tax havens for Crypto millionaires. They can shoot and kill independentista boricuas and let them bleed out on the floor....pollute Vieques with depleted uranium causing cáncer in Puerto Ricans for war games, they can get away with crimes without giving us full rights.

How do You get progress? Without violencia? Answer that?


How so? PR used to have tax benefits (section 936 of the tax code I think) but those were ended in 2006. Interestingly that's also roughly when the island's depression began.

It's not so much about who benefits than about who loses from an outright rejection. As far as the US is concerned, politicians would rather just leave this as is and that includes not being forced to make a decision on the matter.

XogGyux wrote:Nobody is saying you have to tackle him, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to consider calling 911 and see if the person needs psychiatric or medical evaluation. I assume that is the most common/reasonable, after all, that is how i get more of my psychiatric admissions, so most people are doing something like that.


Sure, but I don't think those who want independence are crazy. At best, they are idealistic and at worst they are irresponsible and full of resentment. But insane? No.

XogGyux wrote:Isen't that the behavior of a child? I cannot have my doll, so I am going to remove the doll so my sister cannot enjoy playing with it?


It is, it's more common among adults than you'd think. I saw it first hand in certain events in Chile in 2019.

XogGyux wrote:Oh, they probably won't move there. They'd probably do what they do in other countries in which they just go visit. But because their income difference is so massive, I can afford to have an apartment or house basically uninhabited for most of the year and it is my vacation home. Or perhaps I have some servant taking care of it when I am off. It happens in cuba, I have family members that despite my disapproval and disdain do this kind of crap.


Interesting, I wouldn't expect that kind of thing to be legal in Cuba.

You know what's the worst part? That would probably be better than the alternative of outright cutting off all ties.

XogGyux wrote:I also suspect the same thing. As I child I was taught all of the history of Cuba's colonization, Marti and how people died to get Cuba freed, and the whole point is to insert the emotional hook to keep you invested in the idea regardless of whether it made sense or not. It is emotional blackmail. And if you are not fully aligned with the idea of living in misery as a slave, then you are a materialistic scum. :lol: Bullshit, it is all brain showing nonsense.
It is simple, I care about the quality of life, about safety, about your opportunities to grow, and your opportunities to leave and find an alternative live if the prior one is not working well.


That's because you experienced the consequences of this type of delusion first hand.

But, the delusional do have a point: Puerto Rico has been stagnating for 18+ years now, to the point its peak per capita GDP was reached in 2004.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NYGDPPCAPKDPRI

Would independence solve it? It's hard to know for sure, but chances are that even if it did, statehood would too.

XogGyux wrote:PR could greatly benefit from an increasingly more protective US. Now that situation with china is souring and we are trying to restart more industries (semiconductors? Cars? etc) within the US, PR could have a competitive advantage due to lower salaries. Could. Not sure. Independence throws pretty much anything out of the window. In fact, the current PR economy would disappear overnight without ACTIVE cooperation with the US to avoid crumbling.
It wouldn't take PR to just be "independent" if that happens, we would need customs between the countries, you know... like any other country, and now all of our laws and regulations for any sort of import from PR come into effect. So for PR just to keep the economical "status quo" after an independence, they would have to negiciate with the US to keep things regarding drugs and medical equipment from requiring a shiton more paperwork. That takes a willing, active and cooperative US. What are the chances of the US becoming a willing, active and cooperative part of such disolution of relationship? I am very skeptic.
Now... there is the other option, the US does not actively working towards helping PR become independent, but does not put a roadblock either. It is kind of a "shrug" "I don't care do what you want" approach. Even this sort of approach would be disruptive for puerto rico, it wouldn't even take an active role of the US screwing them up. Like I said before, most of their export would require the FDA to actively approve PR's drugs and devices, etc.


Indeed, although OTOH there could be some benefits for PR. Particularly, the federal minimum wage and corporate taxes might be just too high for the island's economy and in that case maybe independence would allow them to set a more realistic minimum wage, closer to the actual marginal productivity of the island's workforce, along with letting it compete through taxation - both of which should make its economy a lot more competitive.

It would also depend a lot on how would relations between the US and Puerto Rico be post independence. If they were good, they could sign a free trade agreement which would probably address most of your concerns. If they were poor, however, it would be a disaster for PR.

XogGyux wrote:How is going through 2 customs cheaper? Go to PR first and PR's customs, then repackage and send them to US port? Seems odd.
In a scenario in which PR is independent, the US cannot have a special treatment for shipment between PR and the US. At some point, a pack of drugs will be found, like we find them in any other port or custom places of the country and containers coming anywhere in the world, except the one from PR will be politicized 100x worse because the relationships are going to be sour, and that is going to be the end of it. But again, I don't understand how stopping ships in PR instead of going directly to mainland is supposed to be an advantage at all, usually, the opposite is preferred.


Goods would probably just go through a single customs (in Puerto Rico or the mainland, depending on what's cheaper for those trading). This is one aspect where businesses should be allowed to just reap whatever efficiency gains they can.

XogGyux wrote:Independence won't rid them from their crappy politicians.


Absolutely, they are another big issue.

XogGyux wrote:This is a relic of prior times, but one that some interests have kept alive. To be honest, given the issues going on world wide, perhaps it might not be prudent to completely walk away from it, but perhaps we can encourage the respective industries directly rather than to put these silly restrictions. AKA subsidize shipbuilding rather than Jones Act. But yeah, it'd be fair to revisit.


It's necessary, I think.
#15264321
wat0n wrote:Sure, but I don't think those who want independence are crazy. At best, they are idealistic and at worst they are irresponsible and full of resentment. But insane? No.


That is not the point. The point is, if you see someone causing harm to themselves, most decent human beings would have a huge to try to prevent it. It does not have to be a crazy person either. The guy banging his head on the wall might be doing it out of intense emotional pain after receiving bad news or out of intense anger... people do these kinds of stuff. It is just an example that explains why someone might have a non-nefarious reason to present their objections and/or help those that object to a PR independence, etc.

It is, it's more common among adults than you'd think. I saw it first hand in certain events in Chile in 2019.

Absolutely. This is one of the things that dissapointed myself when I realized it was persistent long after I became an adult. I was a fairly mature child, I had to be, since early in my childhood I attended a music conservatory and the training was rigorous, needed a lot of discipline, hard work and sacrifize. So I grew increasingly frustrated when I continued to see very childish behavior on fully grown adults, most of them. But the worse part is not the childish behavior, the worse part is the condescending behavior of many of these adults when they judge others for this reason.

Interesting, I wouldn't expect that kind of thing to be legal in Cuba.

It wasen't for a long time, at least not to this extreme. There were people that were doing it, but because they had family in cuba that could hold their property and stuff. But recently they allowed people to buy/sell houses and other economic reforms, which i think it is overall a good thing, but the effect is that now you have even greater inequality.

You know what's the worst part? That would probably be better than the alternative of outright cutting off all ties.

It definitely is. But you know what it would have been even better, if they had not been so foking crazy with their cult and behaved like a normal country instead.

That's because you experienced the consequences of this type of delusion first hand.

But, the delusional do have a point: Puerto Rico has been stagnating for 18+ years now, to the point its peak per capita GDP was reached in 2004.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NYGDPPCAPKDPRI

Would independence solve it? It's hard to know for sure, but chances are that even if it did, statehood would too.

So has Japan, Their GDP has stagnated since the 1990's and they are independent. https://datacommons.org/place/country/J ... tion&hl=en
Why would you assume that this stagnation is directly and uniquely a result of their political status?

Indeed, although OTOH there could be some benefits for PR. Particularly, the federal minimum wage and corporate taxes might be just too high for the island's economy and in that case maybe independence would allow them to set a more realistic minimum wage,

Do you honestly think this is what @Tainari88 has in mind? Get independence so that puerto ricans can be paid less $$ legally? I am doubtful of this.

Goods would probably just go through a single customs (in Puerto Rico or the mainland, depending on what's cheaper for those trading). This is one aspect where businesses should be allowed to just reap whatever efficiency gains they can.

I'd be surprised if this works any other way. When I traveled to other countries through puerto rico, I go through customs in PR but not in Miami. I only go through it once. I don't think people visiting PR even have to go through customs at all if PR is final destination, as it is considered US soil. I cannot imagine cargo shipping being treated any other way. I just don't think there is any economic benefit of using islands as shipping hubs, not specifically PR but islands in general. Traditionally, most islands have very high cost on import prices. Maybe this could have been an economic benefit if we were still transporting items on wood galleons from 400 years ago that did not have the colossal capacity of our current shipping crafts.

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