The Police Murder of Tyre Nichols - Page 13 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15264234
Pants-of-dog wrote:And when did this change?

We can see when this change happened by looking at the date when the first cop was charged for killing a black person while acting in an official capacity.

If the murder of Mr. Nichols is the first time, then we can say that the institutional support was only taken away very recently.


Not the first time. I already provided you with an example, a recent one, of that.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Who enforces these laws?


The Department of Justice.

Pants-of-dog wrote:This is the jilted ex-lover?

If the only other time a cop was convicted of murder was when they killed their ex’s new lover, and the cop was not acting in his official capacity at the time, we can safely say that this investigation is unusual, since Memphis has a long history of cops killing black people with impunity.


The cop was on duty, whatever an officer does while on duty is an act in his official capacity.

It is also unnecessary to go too far back in time, if anything, the fact it's a recent event should by itself emphasize the idea that these cops should have known they wouldn't get away with this kind of thing.
#15264237
@wat0n

There seems to be a clear and important difference between a person who planned abd executed a planned clandestine murder and happened to be a cop, and a public unplanned murder by police who were doing their duties at the time.

If the latter cops had even thought about it, which is not what I am arguing, they could easily have dismissed the lack of institutional support because of these differences.

But if the jilted ex is the only time a cop has been convicted of murder, then we can safely say that the institution has supported every other cop who publicly killed a black person while performing his duties as a cop.

And if that is the case, it is reasonable to assume these murderers felt they would also receive institutional support.

As to federal law, I think the DOJ farms out the actual policing to the FBI, do they not?
#15264243
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

There seems to be a clear and important difference between a person who planned abd executed a planned clandestine murder and happened to be a cop, and a public unplanned murder by police who were doing their duties at the time.

If the latter cops had even thought about it, which is not what I am arguing, they could easily have dismissed the lack of institutional support because of these differences.


Unplanned murder by police? So how does the fact that murder is unplanned allow you to conclude it was caused by systemic racism?

If the cops had thought about it, they'd seen they just can't get away with murdering African Americans given the ongoing trial of their colleague who did just that. They don't need to go back to 1971 or something like that to have an idea in this matter.

Pants-of-dog wrote:But if the jilted ex is the only time a cop has been convicted of murder, then we can safely say that the institution has supported every other cop who publicly killed a black person while performing his duties as a cop.

And if that is the case, it is reasonable to assume these murderers felt they would also receive institutional support.


No, we can't safely assume any of that.

Pants-of-dog wrote:As to federal law, I think the DOJ farms out the actual policing to the FBI, do they not?


The DOJ can investigate local policing for civil rights violations, and does so from time to time. When that happens, the local authorities usually settle and enter a consent decree with the DOJ in which they commit to address whatever civil rights issue the police may have.

The DOJ can also start criminal charges for civil rights violations against specific officers. Here's one such case involving a Memphis cop who abused his position to kidnap and torture a drug dealer, to do the drug dealing himself:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdtn/pr/fo ... violations
https://www.actionnews5.com/2022/10/25/ ... iolations/
#15264258
wat0n wrote:Unplanned murder by police? So how does the fact that murder is unplanned allow you to conclude it was caused by systemic racism?

If the cops had thought about it, they'd seen they just can't get away with murdering African Americans given the ongoing trial of their colleague who did just that. They don't need to go back to 1971 or something like that to have an idea in this matter.


Again, when was the first time a cop was convicted of killing a black person while performing their duties?

No, we can't safely assume any of that.


Why not?

The DOJ can investigate local policing for civil rights violations, and does so from time to time. When that happens, the local authorities usually settle and enter a consent decree with the DOJ in which they commit to address whatever civil rights issue the police may have.

The DOJ can also start criminal charges for civil rights violations against specific officers. Here's one such case involving a Memphis cop who abused his position to kidnap and torture a drug dealer, to do the drug dealing himself:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdtn/pr/fo ... violations
https://www.actionnews5.com/2022/10/25/ ... iolations/


Have they ever gone after Memphis cops for killing black people while performing their duties?
#15264260
Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, when was the first time a cop was convicted of killing a black person while performing their duties?


I don't know, but I will note the cop who's on trial already confessed. I don't know if he's been sentenced yet.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Why not?


Because it's happened recently, and the examples of cases in other states tell us it would not be rational to believe you can get away with murder in this case.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Have they ever gone after Memphis cops for killing black people while performing their duties?


I ignore if they joined the lawsuit against the cop who's already confessed committing first degree murder. Now, if you say the DOJ would initiate proceedings against torturers but not killers... You'd be wrong.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdtn/pr/st ... vin-g-ritz
#15264265
@wat0n

I am not talking about your other, vastly different murder.

I am asking if any cop has ever been convicted of killing a black man in a scenario comparable to the murder of Mr. Nichols.

At this point, it seems like none have ever been charged.
#15264266
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

I am not talking about your other, vastly different murder.

I am asking if any cop has ever been convicted of killing a black man in a scenario comparable to the murder of Mr. Nichols.

At this point, it seems like none have ever been charged.


Why wouldn't the scenarios be comparable?

Are you saying a racist police force would be OK with cops randomly killing a Black person but not OK with cops killing a Black person who's fucking an officer's ex?

:eh:
#15264268
wat0n wrote:Why wouldn't the scenarios be comparable?

Are you saying a racist police force would be OK with cops randomly killing a Black person but not OK with cops killing a Black person who's fucking an officer's ex?

:eh:


Yes, and this is because the cops who killed Mr. Nichols were acting as cops when they killed him.

The jilted ex was simply acting as a cuckold.
#15264272
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, and this is because the cops who killed Mr. Nichols were acting as cops when they killed him.

The jilted ex was simply acting as a cuckold.


The jilted ex was on duty when he kidnapped and then murdered this man, it wasn't an off-duty crime.
#15264281
@wat0n

Please note that whether or not you believe he was acting as a cop at that time, what is important is whether or not Mr. Nichols’ murderers thought he was.

Since you are arguing that this murder cannot be systemic racism since the murderers would have thought of the jilted ex-lover and realised they have no institutional support, it would be necessary for the murderers to believe that the jilted ex-lover was acting as a cop at the time.

Is there any indication that they thought so?
#15264287
Wait, wait, wait - are the rumors about one of the cops and a female being linked to Tyre true?
#15264288
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

Please note that whether or not you believe he was acting as a cop at that time, what is important is whether or not Mr. Nichols’ murderers thought he was.

Since you are arguing that this murder cannot be systemic racism since the murderers would have thought of the jilted ex-lover and realised they have no institutional support, it would be necessary for the murderers to believe that the jilted ex-lover was acting as a cop at the time.

Is there any indication that they thought so?


So let me see if I get this straight, now you think that if officers believe to be acting in official capacity then they also believe they can do whatever they want with no consequences. Am I correct here?

If so, why did these cops use force in a situation that did not warrant it under their department's policy?
#15264329
wat0n wrote:So let me see if I get this straight, now you think that if officers believe to be acting in official capacity then they also believe they can do whatever they want with no consequences. Am I correct here?


It is a little bit more complicated, but more or less, yes.

If so, why did these cops use force in a situation that did not warrant it under their department's policy?


Because they could, and they were on a power trip.
#15264330
Pants-of-dog wrote:Because they could, and they were on a power trip.


But they couldn't, and they presumably knew that because of their employer's rules and training. That's also one reason why they are being charged for murder, by the way, since because of their training they should presumably be aware that the beating could kill someone.

In the end, as far as their department goes, it seems the only difference with the other cop is that they didn't premeditate the killing (hence the lack of a first degree murder charge).
#15264333
wat0n wrote:But they couldn't, and they presumably knew that because of their employer's rules and training.


And yet they did.

That's also one reason why they are being charged for murder, by the way, since because of their training they should presumably be aware that the beating could kill someone.


Then why were almost all the other cops before this not charged?

In the end, as far as their department goes, it seems the only difference with the other cop is that they didn't premeditate the killing (hence the lack of a first degree murder charge).


But this killing is not different form the majority of other cop killings in Memphis, so why are these cops the first to be charged under these circumstances?
#15264339
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then why were almost all the other cops before this not charged?


Such as...?

Pants-of-dog wrote:But this killing is not different form the majority of other cop killings in Memphis, so why are these cops the first to be charged under these circumstances?


Can you cite any examples? In the most similar case I found, where cops also beat Black people and killed one, the cops were charged but acquitted - and that's a case from 1971, when Memphis was not just a mostly White city but one where the mayor opposed the civil rights movement.
#15264350
wat0n wrote:Such as...?

Can you cite any examples? In the most similar case I found, where cops also beat Black people and killed one, the cops were charged but acquitted - and that's a case from 1971, when Memphis was not just a mostly White city but one where the mayor opposed the civil rights movement.


I was thinking of the 25 police killings between 2013 and 2021.

If you would like to look at a specific example, I would be happy to discuss whichever you want.

Please note that I do not think the many cases of cops killing their wives, lovers, and the lovers of their wives or girlfriends are comparable. And boy, there are a lot of those cases.
#15264354
Pants-of-dog wrote:I was thinking of the 25 police killings between 2013 and 2021.

If you would like to look at a specific example, I would be happy to discuss whichever you want.

Please note that I do not think the many cases of cops killing their wives, lovers, and the lovers of their wives or girlfriends are comparable. And boy, there are a lot of those cases.


You'd need to be more specific. Under what circumstances did those killings happen?

It is not an outrage if the cops killed in self-defense, for example.
#15264355
@wat0n

As far as I can tell, no Memphis cops have ever been convicted of killing anyone in these circumstances except the murderers of Mr. Nichols.

All the cases that have resulted in convictions are cases of cops killing their significant others or the lovers of their significant others.
#15264360
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

As far as I can tell, no Memphis cops have ever been convicted of killing anyone in these circumstances except the murderers of Mr. Nichols.

All the cases that have resulted in convictions are cases of cops killing their significant others or the lovers of their significant others.


Sounds like cherry-picking, and a very convoluted one. After all, as I said, I highly doubt the police cares if an on-duty officer killed someone due to personal reasons or an improper use of force as defined by the department itself.

MPD Policy and Procedures wrote:...

G. Exhaustion of all Other Reasonable Means - All other reasonable means have been
exhausted when an officer has tried to control conflict by using all alternate methods other
than deadly force. However, all other reasonable means may be considered to have been
exhausted when an officer analyzes a set of circumstances and honestly and reasonably
concludes that any other means will be ineffective, useless, or hazardous to the officer or
some innocent third party.
H. Necessary Force – Necessary Force or “reasonable force” is force that can be reasonably
used by an officer to accomplish their duties in a timely manner; force that keeps both the
officer and citizen as safe as possible. Members are permitted to use whatever force is
necessary and reasonable to protect others or themselves from bodily harm.
I. Excessive Force – Excessive force is defined as the amount of force which is beyond the
need and circumstances of the particular event, or which is not justified in the light of all
circumstances.
J. Unnecessary Force - Unnecessary Force is that force or violence that is unprovoked,
needless, or not required when making an arrest or dealing with a prisoner or any person.
Officers shall NEVER use Unnecessary Force.

...

Officers should only use THE NECESSARY AMOUNT OF FORCE to safely accomplish
their duties. Whenever possible, officers should allow individuals time to submit to the officer’s
commands before force is used. Officers should react to the amount of resistance shown by a
suspect and then determine the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary to safely take
this person into custody during a lawful arrest. (1.3.1)
This idea of safety should include the officer(s) involved, the person(s) suspected of committing
the offense, and any innocent third parties that may be involved as victims, witnesses, or
bystanders.
Any time there is an injury or an alleged injury as the result of any level of force used, officers
will, upon properly restraining the subject, examine any person appearing injured or claiming
injury and render the appropriate medical aid. Officers will request paramedics to the scene as
needed. Any officer on the scene of an incident wherein he/ she is made aware of an injury or a
claim of injury must immediately notify a supervisor. The notified supervisor will examine the
suspect(s) injuries, speak with witnesses, and ensure the incident is documented via the Response
to Resistance Incident in Blue Team, photographs, and/or other appropriate documentation.
(1.3.5)

...

V. Use of Deadly Force Prohibited
The use of DEADLY FORCE is prohibited in the following circumstances:
A. To apprehend or arrest a person for a misdemeanor offense; or
B. To effect the arrest of any person for escape from the commission of any misdemeanor
offense; or

...


Care to explain why is one case so much worse than the other?
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