Pres. of El Salvador Nayib Bukele talks about Immigration SUPER RATIONAL - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15268315
Tainari88 wrote:And do you think debates are about one line posts?

One line posts can be very condensed ones and they can also be a kind of politeness and restraint. I don't expect you to deal with me so much and spend so much time on me as with and on at least three other posters, for example. Your posts are so long because you let yourself indulge in your own eloquence rather than condensing your thoughts and cutting it short to spare other fellow posters some valuable time and effort. Your long posts are just too long compared to their value because they're filled with lots and lots of useless and unnecessary letters, words, or even sentences that don't make them more valuable but longer.
#15268317
Here it is, the anti imperialism speech of Nayib Bukele ONU in a very diplomatic way.

I have always been very non aligned movement thinker. This speech is about non alignment and freedom for self development.

He is right about that:



@wat0n listen to this speech you get the answer to why he is doing what he does. They don't trust the USA to respect their own choices. They also commit all kinds of errors in administration and in goals precisely because they do not trust the big dogs on the block.

You live in denial Wat0n. The USA is an empire and like the Jon Stewart video I posted in that other thread dealing with white resentment, no one with any kind of realism in Latin American politics can think if you go against the foreign policy interests of the USA that you are going to be left unscathed. The Right knows this and so does the Left.

They should be leaving everyone the hell alone Wat0n. Not saying this guy is a guaranteed far Right dictator. Or this guy is a Communist who loves to oppress. If the USA was truly respecting democracy they would have left them all alone. They did not. So now? They can go with their hypocritical bullshit rap to sojme other naive dumb group that might believe that the USA is Empire Light. It never was.
#15268324
So your paranoia about the US justifies Bukele trumping on his country's Constitution and concentrating power.

The only surprising thing to me is that you like Bukele in particular, when he's quite obviously not a socialist and the Latin American left despises him. It seems any kind of government works for you as long as it doesn't get along with the US.
#15268328
I do not agree with long terms for any president. But? This is his reply to this question you put in there @wat0n :



He is talking about black ops and money and bribes from mostly outsiders Wat0n.

No, Wat0n, he has having overwhelming majorities, and the election wasn't manipulated. if I don't agree with him and I don't because I think socialist policies are way better--but if democracy says Nayib has to be the victor. You got to accept it. I am not fucking Trump denying votes and wanting to lie to stay in power.

You are good at looking to excuse these anti democratic freaks, and then you do not get why disagreeing is an integral part of democratic processes.
#15268331
Another integral part of the democratic process is respecting the Constitution and the system of checks and balances. Sending the army to intimidate the Legislative Assembly or getting the Supreme Court to agree with a blatant violation of the Constitution is not democratic.

Bukele has a lot of support now, but that won't last forever and sooner or later Salvadorans will get tired of him just as it happens with any administration. And when that happens, he'll likely be in a position to just suppress any opposition just like the chavistas did, by controlling the military, the legislative branch and the judiciary (including electoral justice).

But hey, he doesn't get along with the US so it's all good to you.
#15268336
wat0n wrote:So your paranoia about the US justifies Bukele trumping on his country's Constitution and concentrating power.

The only surprising thing to me is that you like Bukele in particular, when he's quite obviously not a socialist and the Latin American left despises him. It seems any kind of government works for you as long as it doesn't get along with the US.


Listen to his reasoning behind the constitutional power change. If you agree or don't that is your issue Wat0n. He is saying he has to make changes because the past way of doing it was vulnerable to corruption and obstructionism.

He is in that 90 to 80% backing from the voters. That is democracy for El Salvador. Period.

You keep defending imperialism to the bitter end Wat0n. Why? You can't have democracy and imperialistic foreign policy and not have a serious defect in processes of what democracy means in the world. They can't co-exist without serious consequences. You are seeing the consequences of very powerful political people and economic people and the military industrial complex people becoming what they sowed in other nations. The US is dangerously polarized. And when that happens it is flashing the signs of crisis and of lack of cooperation and divisiveness.

That destroyed El Salvador in the 1980s and it destroyed Honduras, and Nicaragua and Panama, and Guatemala and it has limited the choices of Costa Rica too.

Part of dealing with diversity in political thought is accepting that other people are going to be voting in ideologies and political philosophies that are not yours. Hell, my politics never win in most of the nations of the world. I can think that I got to force it on the world with guns and bullshit. But that is totally useless. You make change happen with your example. Your behavior and your actions. Politics is about actions and how you live your life.

It is not about hot air talking like many like to do on here. You got to live your value system. If you are a socialist that is sincere? What do you do? You do not put money seeking and stepping on coworkers necks to climb up the hierarchy in order to PROFIT and become rich. That is not the behavior of a true socialist. You share your MONEY, your house, and your time and your sweat with others who are struggling. You accept failures on a personal level and do not shirk responsibilities. You support the working class and the people who struggle everyday. You do not exploit anyone at all. You offer the best of yourself.

You do not impose. You do not dictate. You do not manipulate and control with food, water, basics and needs in order to pressure someone into working longer hours and getting paid less for it.

Political philosophies are about values. Values. That includes very personal decisions.

For me democracy is about having educated and not coerced people in a free and fair process of democratic voting choose a leader and that leader represents his constituents.

It is not my place to then second guess those voters. Trump lies and openly manipulates his base. Why? He does not respect them as his equal. He only wants to use them for his own gains.

That is not about equality or equity. I am about equity. It is not a buzzword for me.

I witnessed my mother turning down BIG BUCKS that could have made a huge difference in her life in terms of money and comfort and even medical care. She turned it down. Because they wanted her to lie and sellout in order to use her credibility with the Latin community where she lived to win an election. She said no to them. They got furious. Tried lying on her outright lies and falsehoods. Then there were threats to her life on the phone. Her car got shot up on the highway but my Uncle's girlfriend at the time was driving it and was terrified. She never borrowed my mother's car again for sure. Lol.

I kept asking her, why do you do it Mami? Her answer was always the same. Never give up on your principles in this world. No matter how hard it gets. Because all of these useless politicians do that all the time. Give up on their principles because it costs them too much in a personal level. They do not see their principles defining them as human beings. They should. Because that is all that defines us as human beings.

Mom, was respected by so many people! I had no idea the amount of people who loved her and relied on her for guidance and for work, and for human rights.

I still remember the Guatemalan man who chased me to my car when her funeral was over....in September of 2007....he said to me in Spanish, 'Your mother was rare. She was always faithful to her principles. She fought the good fight. She was someone to be admired. She went down fighting like the champion she was. As her daughter you should be so proud of her! We all are proud of her. She was part of all of us in Latin America. She is the best of all of us.'

Made me cry for an hour after that in the car.

That is all we are in this world Wat0n. Nuestros principios.

I think democracy is inclusive. And it reflects the will of the group. That is perfectly aligned with international socialism. No contradiction in that. Salvadorans chose Nayib without coercion. Respecting their choice is being a good socialist. Not a fake socialist.

You should stop being some alcahuete for an Empire that never respected Chileans and their choices, or Mexicans, or Salvadorans or Hondurans, or Colombians, and the list is endless of the amount of abuse they have done to their supposed Democratic principles. They are not democrats at all. They are imperialists. And they are in contradiction to their stated governmental founding documents. The people you should be confronting are them. Not I or any of us living our principles consistently.

But not even being a US citizen yourself Wat0n you are seeking to do what? Find out what the hell you are doing in the USA without having the right to work for an extended period. Find out what you stand for and make it work for your life.

Everyone has to define themselves in life.
#15268337
Beren wrote:One line posts can be very condensed ones and they can also be a kind of politeness and restraint. I don't expect you to deal with me so much and spend so much time on me as with and on at least three other posters, for example. Your posts are so long because you let yourself indulge in your own eloquence rather than condensing your thoughts and cutting it short to spare other fellow posters some valuable time and effort. Your long posts are just too long compared to their value because they're filled with lots and lots of useless and unnecessary letters, words, or even sentences that don't make them more valuable but longer.


Fair enough. How about I make a great change just for you? And when I reply to you? I do it short and sweet and condensed. I think I can do that easily. And that way I can give you what you like and quickly eh? Deal?

I will go on with other posters and do my long winded habitual way with the ones with the patience eh?

I did ask @Potemkin and others once if he minded reading such long replies. He can give his opinion eh?

He is the king of concise and precise on here. Hee hee.
#15268340
Tainari88 wrote:Listen to his reasoning behind the constitutional power change. If you agree or don't that is your issue Wat0n. He is saying he has to make changes because the past way of doing it was vulnerable to corruption and obstructionism.


He didn't change the Constitution to run for reelection. Even to this day, the Constitution doesn't let him run again - but it doesn't matter, because he controls all 3 branches of the government.

Article 152 of Salvador's Constitution wrote:Art. 152.- No podrán ser candidatos a Presidente de la República:

1º- El que haya desempeñado la Presidencia de la República por más de seis meses, consecutivos o no, durante el período inmediato anterior, o dentro de los últimos seis meses anteriores al inicio del período presidencial;


Tainari88 wrote:He is in that 90 to 80% backing from the voters. That is democracy for El Salvador. Period.


For how long?

I'll note the Constituent Assembly that wrote the current Constitution was democratically elected. It didn't matter, Bukele is still running for reelection and the democratic wishes of the people weren't respected in that case.

The Constitution also mandates that reforms be approved by the current Legislative Assembly and for them to be ratified by the next one. If there was a principled attitude that Presidential reelections are good, Bukele and his camp would just pass such all the necessary reforms to the Constitution to that effect (the current Constitution doesn't allow the Legislative Assembly reform the above article, but it could reform the Constitution to change the mechanism for making Constitutional amendments, such as allowing that part to be reformed by referendum - which is what he'll do) and let one of his subordinates run with his support so the process can continue in the next term.

But this isn't about principles, it's about holding on to power.

Tainari88 wrote:You keep defending imperialism to the bitter end Wat0n. Why? You can't have democracy and imperialistic foreign policy and not have a serious defect in processes of what democracy means in the world. They can't co-exist without serious consequences. You are seeing the consequences of very powerful political people and economic people and the military industrial complex people becoming what they sowed in other nations. The US is dangerously polarized. And when that happens it is flashing the signs of crisis and of lack of cooperation and divisiveness.

That destroyed El Salvador in the 1980s and it destroyed Honduras, and Nicaragua and Panama, and Guatemala and it has limited the choices of Costa Rica too.

Part of dealing with diversity in political thought is accepting that other people are going to be voting in ideologies and political philosophies that are not yours. Hell, my politics never win in most of the nations of the world. I can think that I got to force it on the world with guns and bullshit. But that is totally useless. You make change happen with your example. Your behavior and your actions. Politics is about actions and how you live your life.

It is not about hot air talking like many like to do on here. You got to live your value system. If you are a socialist that is sincere? What do you do? You do not put money seeking and stepping on coworkers necks to climb up the hierarchy in order to PROFIT and become rich. That is not the behavior of a true socialist. You share your MONEY, your house, and your time and your sweat with others who are struggling. You accept failures on a personal level and do not shirk responsibilities. You support the working class and the people who struggle everyday. You do not exploit anyone at all. You offer the best of yourself.

You do not impose. You do not dictate. You do not manipulate and control with food, water, basics and needs in order to pressure someone into working longer hours and getting paid less for it.

Political philosophies are about values. Values. That includes very personal decisions.

For me democracy is about having educated and not coerced people in a free and fair process of democratic voting choose a leader and that leader represents his constituents.

It is not my place to then second guess those voters. Trump lies and openly manipulates his base. Why? He does not respect them as his equal. He only wants to use them for his own gains.

That is not about equality or equity. I am about equity. It is not a buzzword for me.

I witnessed my mother turning down BIG BUCKS that could have made a huge difference in her life in terms of money and comfort and even medical care. She turned it down. Because they wanted her to lie and sellout in order to use her credibility with the Latin community where she lived to win an election. She said no to them. They got furious. Tried lying on her outright lies and falsehoods. Then there were threats to her life on the phone. Her car got shot up on the highway but my Uncle's girlfriend at the time was driving it and was terrified. She never borrowed my mother's car again for sure. Lol.

I kept asking her, why do you do it Mami? Her answer was always the same. Never give up on your principles in this world. No matter how hard it gets. Because all of these useless politicians do that all the time. Give up on their principles because it costs them too much in a personal level. They do not see their principles defining them as human beings. They should. Because that is all that defines us as human beings.

Mom, was respected by so many people! I had no idea the amount of people who loved her and relied on her for guidance and for work, and for human rights.

I still remember the Guatemalan man who chased me to my car when her funeral was over....in September of 2007....he said to me in Spanish, 'Your mother was rare. She was always faithful to her principles. She fought the good fight. She was someone to be admired. She went down fighting like the champion she was. As her daughter you should be so proud of her! We all are proud of her. She was part of all of us in Latin America. She is the best of all of us.'

Made me cry for an hour after that in the car.

That is all we are in this world Wat0n. Nuestros principios.

I think democracy is inclusive. And it reflects the will of the group. That is perfectly aligned with international socialism. No contradiction in that. Salvadorans chose Nayib without coercion. Respecting their choice is being a good socialist. Not a fake socialist.

You should stop being some alcahuete for an Empire that never respected Chileans and their choices, or Mexicans, or Salvadorans or Hondurans, or Colombians, and the list is endless of the amount of abuse they have done to their supposed Democratic principles. They are not democrats at all. They are imperialists. And they are in contradiction to their stated governmental founding documents. The people you should be confronting are them. Not I or any of us living our principles consistently.

But not even being a US citizen yourself Wat0n you are seeking to do what? Find out what the hell you are doing in the USA without having the right to work for an extended period. Find out what you stand for and make it work for your life.

Everyone has to define themselves in life.


I agree, everyone has to define themselves in life. An obvious power grab with the ensuing destruction of constitutional democracy is a red line I can't support to see politicians crossing, even those who would otherwise be allies judging by how disliked Bukele is in the South American left, and the Chilean left specifically - I could just excuse when Bukele does it, but I don't.

As I said: It doesn't matter if it is a Chávez/Maduro, Morales, Boric, Castillo, Ortega, Bukele, Bolsonaro, Trump, Netanyahu, Orban, Allende, Pinochet or Ibáñez del Campo (just to add some Chilean ones who are long dead) - I don't like politicians who work to destroy liberal democracies, even shitty ones. If I had to work with them, which would only be necessary if they had already reached power, it'd be because the alternatives are even worse and that's it. Even when voting, I would rather do an invalid vote than voting for candidates who are working to that effect and have a realistic chance to succeed. And no, saying so is not "supporting imperialism".

On the other hand, the only definition I can see on your end is that you'll sign off with anyone who opposes the US. They can be dictators, and you will at most say something like "well, I don't agree with that but he keeps those gringos in check". Is that your only consistent position?
#15268344
wat0n wrote:He didn't change the Constitution to run for reelection. Even to this day, the Constitution doesn't let him run again - but it doesn't matter, because he controls all 3 branches of the government.





For how long?

I'll note the Constituent Assembly that wrote the current Constitution was democratically elected. It didn't matter, Bukele is still running for reelection and the democratic wishes of the people weren't respected in that case.

The Constitution also mandates that reforms be approved by the current Legislative Assembly and for them to be ratified by the next one. If there was a principled attitude that Presidential reelections are good, Bukele and his camp would just pass such all the necessary reforms to the Constitution to that effect (the current Constitution doesn't allow the Legislative Assembly reform the above article, but it could reform the Constitution to change the mechanism for making Constitutional amendments, such as allowing that part to be reformed by referendum - which is what he'll do) and let one of his subordinates run with his support so the process can continue in the next term.

But this isn't about principles, it's about holding on to power.



I agree, everyone has to define themselves in life. An obvious power grab with the ensuing destruction of constitutional democracy is a red line I can't support to see politicians crossing, even those who would otherwise be allies judging by how disliked Bukele is in the South American left, and the Chilean left specifically - I could just excuse when Bukele does it, but I don't.

As I said: It doesn't matter if it is a Chávez/Maduro, Morales, Boric, Castillo, Ortega, Bukele, Bolsonaro, Trump, Netanyahu, Orban, Allende, Pinochet or Ibáñez del Campo (just to add some Chilean ones who are long dead) - I don't like politicians who work to destroy liberal democracies, even shitty ones. If I had to work with them, which would only be necessary if they had already reached power, it'd be because the alternatives are even worse and that's it. Even when voting, I would rather do an invalid vote than voting for candidates who are working to that effect and have a realistic chance to succeed. And no, saying so is not "supporting imperialism".

On the other hand, the only definition I can see on your end is that you'll sign off with anyone who opposes the US. They can be dictators, and you will at most say something like "well, I don't agree with that but he keeps those gringos in check". Is that your only consistent position?


What did Trump do Wat0n? He stacked the SCOTUS with his picks. He also vacated or had vacated most of the cabinet seats for very important departments like the EPA and the USPS and many other parts. He tried his best to get past having to negotiate with the House of Rep and Congress. That is where he hit the skids. When that did not work? He went for a badly done coup.

The Democrats did a bunch of dirty deals. Behind closed doors. Clinton assumed she would win the election of 2016. I knew Trump would win. I even predicted it at the office of the nonprofit I worked.

The USA has a defective system of checks and balances. It is defective. El Salvador is doing what? If you have corruption holding on to those people in corrupt positions in all three branches is not going to work.

The USA needs to get a clean sweep out of those corrupt politicians who need to raise $18,000 a day in order to stay in office. That breeds a lack of checks and balances naturally. How? The people elected all have to be beholden to a plutocracy to stay viable. A plutocracy is not a democracy. It is a form of minority rule that is specifically anti-democratic. You don't see it? I do.

A good video that pinpoints the problems with US-style democracy:



And the problem is the USA wants to dictate its system which is at a point of real problems.

Principles. Hmmm. The dude says that is important. I agree.

I think our republics in Latin America can grow the democracies in a way that is quite evolved. But it needs to adapt to the circumstances that are correct for each of the nations' histories. Something better.

No puedes predicar la moral en calzoncillos. Porque el gobierno estadounidense esta bien mal. They need to move. He is right.
#15268345
Tainari88 wrote:What did Trump do Wat0n? He stacked the SCOTUS with his picks. He also vacated or had vacated most of the cabinet seats for very important departments like the EPA and the USPS and many other parts. He tried his best to get past having to negotiate with the House of Rep and Congress. That is where he hit the skids. When that did not work? He went for a badly done coup.

The Democrats did a bunch of dirty deals. Behind closed doors. Clinton assumed she would win the election of 2016. I knew Trump would win. I even predicted it at the office of the nonprofit I worked.

The USA has a defective system of checks and balances. It is defective. El Salvador is doing what? If you have corruption holding on to those people in corrupt positions in all three branches is not going to work.

The USA needs to get a clean sweep out of those corrupt politicians who need to raise $18,000 a day in order to stay in office. That breeds a lack of checks and balances naturally. How? The people elected all have to be beholden to a plutocracy to stay viable. A plutocracy is not a democracy. It is a form of minority rule that is specifically anti-democratic. You don't see it? I do.

A good video that pinpoints the problems with US-style democracy:



And the problem is the USA wants to dictate its system which is at a point of real problems.

Principles. Hmmm. The dude says that is important. I agree.

I think our republics in Latin America can grow the democracies in a way that is quite evolved. But it needs to adapt to the circumstances that are correct for each of the nations' histories. Something better.

No puedes predicar la moral en calzoncillos. Porque el gobierno estadounidense esta bien mal. They need to move. He is right.


Just because the USA doesn't have a perfect system of checks and balances, doesn't excuse Bukele from literally getting the Legislative Assembly to dismiss the Supreme Court justices that are not aligned with his positions and replacing them with his own appointees. Do note this happened a few months after he got the to approve the loan for the Salvadoran security forces by getting the military to oversee the vote (signaling they are fine with doing this kind of thing) and just a few months before the ruling that allowed him to run for reelection despite being a flagrant violation of Salvador's Constitution.

Also, Trump nominated 3 justices out of 9, and did not get Congress to successfully impeach any. It's a false equivalency.
#15268347
wat0n wrote:Just because the USA doesn't have a perfect system of checks and balances, doesn't excuse Bukele from literally getting the Legislative Assembly to dismiss the Supreme Court justices that are not aligned with his positions and replacing them with his own appointees. Do note this happened a few months after he got the to approve the loan for the Salvadoran security forces by getting the military to oversee the vote (signaling they are fine with doing this kind of thing) and just a few months before the ruling that allowed him to run for reelection despite being a flagrant violation of Salvador's Constitution.

Also, Trump nominated 3 justices out of 9, and did not get Congress to successfully impeach any. It's a false equivalency.


No, Wat0n, you misinterpret most of what I write. The reality is that the USA has some serious legitimacy challenges of what is a true democracy in 2023. They have consistently interfered in other sovereign nations' elections and have manipulated from afar in totally unacceptable ways. If they by their actions do not back democracy for other nations and not even within their own system? They have nothing to say about El Salvador.

Do you think he will be a dictator Nayib? He does not sound like one for now.

It is miraculous he got a high majority consensus between the Left parties and the Right parties. That was really a big lift in my opinion.

If he becomes another bad politician it will be a bad scene. But his behavior is not back at all. He sounds like a decent politician. For now. I could be wrong. If I am? I do admit mistakes. Part of being a decent socialist. Do not be a prideful asshole and admit you were in the wrong and accept it.

Because part of being principled is to admit it and not play hypocritical roles, like certain people who avoid committing themselves to define their values in life. Like certain people who twist all day long. You still have not answered the question of why you are constantly involved in this political scene of the USA and can't vote? What are you doing there to become a US citizen? Is that your goal in life? Answer and don't waffle. :lol:



No, the platinum package, the bomb and stay....you may ask yourself? Lol.

Do you have an answer to that when little nations are not following the greatness of the American US system., Perfection in action.

No, Wat0n....Got a risk it to get the biscuit....and the risk is going to be avoiding taking advice from some rotten government unwilling to deal with their own horrific contradictions...

Are we overthrowing leaders.....ymmmm, soft ice cream avoidance.....

Seeding the world with global chaos starter kits....

Let us tell you how to do democracy right. I do not think so.

Most of human history is about trial and error.

The entire premise of democracy is about cooperation. Work on that value really really hard Wat0n in your OWN NATION first. Then when that is perfected you can talk to the rest who are not cooperating internally and give them some advice.

It is like a married couple seeking a divorce and they go to the couple that is divorcing at the moment for some how to stay together advice. It does not convince. :lol:
#15268351
If Bukele doesn't want to be a dictator, why is he running for reelection against the constitution? Why did he get the Assembly to remove justices and appoint his own? Why did he send the military to pressure the Assembly to approve the loan? Why doesn't he just support one of his associates for next year's Presidential election?

None of these is happening in the US.
#15268352
wat0n wrote:If Bukele doesn't want to be a dictator, why is he running for reelection against the constitution? Why did he get the Assembly to remove justices and appoint his own? Why did he send the military to pressure the Assembly to approve the loan? Why doesn't he just support one of his associates for next year's Presidential election?

None of these is happening in the US.


He is making unpredictable moves. Everyone is doing the wait-and-see.

I do not care that none of that is happening in the USA. The truth is banks are collapsing in the USA, crypto people are getting arrested for fraud in the US too, and he is embracing that because the Salvadoran economy was tied to the dollar for a while. And it was a way of being less dependent on the dollar.

He is very unpredictable for most. Got to wait it out with Bukele. We will find out what kind of president he is when he is nearing the end of his term. If he gets the crime and gangs down? A good job. If he improves the economy and people's real stability? Did a good job. End of that concern.

I would like to know where you stand in terms of politics Wat0n? Have you taken a political compass test.

I took an extensive one a long time ago. They match you up with the closest famous politician that exists. I got Mandela. Lol.

I hope you don't get Felipe Calderón. You sound like him really. :lol:
#15268809
Oh uh, a rich newspaper owner who does not want to pay taxes that he is used to not paying in El Salvador, went after Nayib's wife and unlike Ted Cruz who's wife Heidi was attacked by Donald Trump and which he said Trump was a liar and so on.....Ted man changed his mind and kissed his ass for political survival.

This video on Nayib Bukele, is a study in not only a really effective verbal public defense of his wife, but a shaming of greed in Salvadoran society. This for me demonstrates what Central American culture is partly about.

I would also like to state that the MS 13 is a result of the Civil War of the 1980s and the fallout of those bloody days. It is not an accident that many Salvadorans fled to Los Angeles to live and found just heartache and poverty and crime on those streets. It breeds gang violence, and many were sent back to El Salvador with millions of dollars from drug dealing and crime.

The best policy is to never interfere in other nations' political choices and to let them sort out their own society. But above all don't train them in the School of the Americas to be torturers and killers. And unleash them on civil society. When they come as asylum seekers fleeing civil strife don't be racist, don't prohibit their opportunities to educate themselves and give them equality. At the end that is far more important.

Think about it....Ted Cruz ignores his wife's attacks on Trump to kiss his ass in the Republican party and Nayib does not let the owner of the rag paper in El Salvador get away with his attacks. He does not shut down the rag at all but he lets him know the letter he sent him is about him being aware he is a greedy man.

#15268821
Tainari88 wrote:He is making unpredictable moves. Everyone is doing the wait-and-see.

I do not care that none of that is happening in the USA. The truth is banks are collapsing in the USA, crypto people are getting arrested for fraud in the US too, and he is embracing that because the Salvadoran economy was tied to the dollar for a while. And it was a way of being less dependent on the dollar.

He is very unpredictable for most. Got to wait it out with Bukele. We will find out what kind of president he is when he is nearing the end of his term. If he gets the crime and gangs down? A good job. If he improves the economy and people's real stability? Did a good job. End of that concern.

I would like to know where you stand in terms of politics Wat0n? Have you taken a political compass test.

I took an extensive one a long time ago. They match you up with the closest famous politician that exists. I got Mandela. Lol.

I hope you don't get Felipe Calderón. You sound like him really. :lol:


Sure, let's wait and see if Bukele somehow decides accumulating power is not worth it.

You got me curious about the political compass so here's my chart:

Economic Left/Right: 2.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

Image

Here are a couple of past ones:

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=124079&p=13520496&hilit=Political+compass#p13520496
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=132010&p=13736008&hilit=Political+compass#p13736008
#15268867
@wat0n you are in the lower right libertarian quadrant. The politicians in that quadrant I really dislike a lot. No wonder we don't get along. I really detest politicians who are individualists and love to be climbers yet refuse to deal with state power in a realistic way. It is a bad combination in my book. Milton Friedman ruined many economies in the developing world. High debt, and people losing worker rights is not something I think is a long term solution. I hate it.

Also, it is good to know your polar opposites. You are not my polar opposite. I do not like authoritarian rulers. Never have. For me the polar opposite of me on that graph you put above? Is Benito Mussolini and Donald Trump, and Hitler, etc. Lol. Yeah, those fucks are my absolute opposites. Lol.

I did a little research on Bukele. He started out in his hometown a bit outside the outskirts of San Salvador the capital city in El Salvador. He joined the FMLN. A leftist party. He understands a lot of Leftist political philosophy. He was the son of a doctor. A well respected one and he is a business background person. But he is also very much leftist in dealing with the money and the privileges. He represents mostly poor and lower middle class people in a small nation. He never really says negative things about the USA. But he does not approve of the USA's actions in the region. He is a mixture of the good parts of the Left and the good parts of the Right and it is a fusion that is strange and interesting. I think that is why he was able to gain both sides into getting him elected.

Salvadoran society is conservative socially. They believe in either Evangelical protestant beliefs or traditional Roman Catholicism. Atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, irreligious beliefs are almost nil. Nothing. They are very traditionally Latin American in behavior. Very family oriented, and rural Latin American which means close ties with extended family, neighbors and friends. Very hard working. No one in El Salvador has been on welfare or free food programs. None. All of them are work or die of starvation people.

They also are great admirers of independent businesses and micro business models. They like family-run businesses. Family-run farms. They are at their heart very much Indigenous in history. Their ancestors are a mixture of many of the Indian groups of Central America.

The class status is very much a part of their hierarchy. In the end though there is a very spirit based, loving, and strong sense of community. They are not rugged individualists. Not at all. They are very much a community based society led by very conservative institutions like the Church and the state.....but they are tied to the land, tradition and they are warm people, loving and being a very small nation with little land? They know each other and their families well. Like a small town might. Puerto Rico is like that too in a way. The Ricans know each other. It is a small place with long roots and our families know each other well.

Knowing that? When they pick a leader they all agree on? A small miracle--Nayib brought warring factions together....they will be reflecting a lot of democratic will. If Nayib betrays that he will be the most hated man in Salvadoran history. But I think he won't. I think he is going to make a foundational change and hopefully let go of power when he has to do it for the good of his own nation's needs.

The USA has to not interfere ever again though. If they do another civil war in El Salvador training those fucking killers from the SOA like before? El Salvador will be at the gates of the place that destroyed them, like the classic Romans and the wandering tribes left out in the desert....who were abandoned to their luck....and will come back to claim retribution.
#15268869
I do not analyze societies based on unscientific feelings. It is based on cultural anthropology tools based on taking cultural characteristics of nations and fitting them with models that work for their history, cultural milieu and matrix and their economic and social and so on goals.

This is Chile's profile. The reason Chile keeps going for socialism in the long term despite what you may think is that socialism fits their cultural tendencies. They have had a high degree of authoritarianism in the recent past and they also are class-based and unequal in many ways economically. They desire more fairness in wealth distribution. Thus why have you got Bachelet and the Libertarian socialist. There is a need for more equality because Chilean society has very clearly drawn class distinctions for a long time.

Here:

https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country/chile/


Notice that Chileans are very communally oriented people in general. Not really into Ayn Rand stuff. As a society, they are one of the most socialistic in BEHAVIOR of all of South America. It makes sense according to the criteria used. Check out the scale. Each society has differing degrees of cultural behavior. The USA is way more individualistic than Chile by a very large margin.
#15268879
Tainari88 wrote:@wat0n you are in the lower right libertarian quadrant. The politicians in that quadrant I really dislike a lot. No wonder we don't get along. I really detest politicians who are individualists and love to be climbers yet refuse to deal with state power in a realistic way. It is a bad combination in my book. Milton Friedman ruined many economies in the developing world. High debt, and people losing worker rights is not something I think is a long term solution. I hate it.


Those economies were ruined long before Friedman showed up. If anything, they did as Friedman advised not because they believed him or not but simply because it was the thing they could do.

Tainari88 wrote:Also, it is good to know your polar opposites. You are not my polar opposite. I do not like authoritarian rulers. Never have. For me the polar opposite of me on that graph you put above? Is Benito Mussolini and Donald Trump, and Hitler, etc. Lol. Yeah, those fucks are my absolute opposites. Lol.


I think Bukele is likely going up somewhere in the upper part of the chart, just based on how much power he's accumulated. It's hard to know where on the left/right spectrum though.

Tainari88 wrote:I did a little research on Bukele. He started out in his hometown a bit outside the outskirts of San Salvador the capital city in El Salvador. He joined the FMLN. A leftist party. He understands a lot of Leftist political philosophy. He was the son of a doctor. A well respected one and he is a business background person. But he is also very much leftist in dealing with the money and the privileges. He represents mostly poor and lower middle class people in a small nation. He never really says negative things about the USA. But he does not approve of the USA's actions in the region. He is a mixture of the good parts of the Left and the good parts of the Right and it is a fusion that is strange and interesting. I think that is why he was able to gain both sides into getting him elected.


There's some of that going on, but I think the #1 reason is simply that he's showing to care about the insecurity issue, which is of course a huge problem in Salvador. Of course, there are those accusations from the left that he's done that by reaching a deal with the maras, but ultimately the fact that Salvadorans widely feel more secure is an accomplishment in the eyes of most.

What I'm more concerned about is his obvious concentration of power. We've seen what normally happens after, both inside and outside Latin America, once people get tired of their current administration for whatever reason. We've also seen how dangerous they can be internationally if they're powerful, although I don't think El Salvador can invade Poland.

Tainari88 wrote:Salvadoran society is conservative socially. They believe in either Evangelical protestant beliefs or traditional Roman Catholicism. Atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, irreligious beliefs are almost nil. Nothing. They are very traditionally Latin American in behavior. Very family oriented, and rural Latin American which means close ties with extended family, neighbors and friends. Very hard working. No one in El Salvador has been on welfare or free food programs. None. All of them are work or die of starvation people.


I think you have to be careful here. As you said, it's something closer to the rural Latin American model, cities are most definitely not the same.

You mentioned Chile in your subsequent post, maybe you'll find this interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Chile

But just like elsewhere, and this is specially clear in the US, rural areas are waaaaaayyyyy more conservative and religious. So if a country is not as urbanized or just became urbanized recently you could expect the population to be more conservative and religious. Again, comparing El Salvador and Chile, around a quarter of Salvadorans currently live in rural areas - which is where Chile was in the late 1960s.

Tainari88 wrote:They also are great admirers of independent businesses and micro business models. They like family-run businesses. Family-run farms. They are at their heart very much Indigenous in history. Their ancestors are a mixture of many of the Indian groups of Central America.

The class status is very much a part of their hierarchy. In the end though there is a very spirit based, loving, and strong sense of community. They are not rugged individualists. Not at all. They are very much a community based society led by very conservative institutions like the Church and the state.....but they are tied to the land, tradition and they are warm people, loving and being a very small nation with little land? They know each other and their families well. Like a small town might. Puerto Rico is like that too in a way. The Ricans know each other. It is a small place with long roots and our families know each other well.

Knowing that? When they pick a leader they all agree on? A small miracle--Nayib brought warring factions together....they will be reflecting a lot of democratic will. If Nayib betrays that he will be the most hated man in Salvadoran history. But I think he won't. I think he is going to make a foundational change and hopefully let go of power when he has to do it for the good of his own nation's needs.


Oh, we have to wait and see about that. The real test will be when he starts facing a more widespread internal opposition.

Sooner or later, some corruption cases will show (it's a fact of life we can't fully get rid of corruption, even if some societies are more corrupt than others even the least corrupt ones have to deal with corruption scandals from time to time). The economy will face a recession, as they happen sooner or later. Or maybe other gangs will surface and crime will increase. Will Salvadorans still support Bukele?

If they don't, what will Bukele do? Will he try to intervene in the electoral process (commit fraud, not let the opposition run, etc) to remain in power or will he just leave? It's rare for politicians who concentrate power in their hands to just leave, and Bukele's own decision to run for reelection against the Constitution suggests he wants to remain President. So I think it is far more likely he'll refuse to quit and do whatever it takes to avoid having to do so than he'll accept an electoral defeat. His own behavior thus far suggests that, I think.

Tainari88 wrote:The USA has to not interfere ever again though. If they do another civil war in El Salvador training those fucking killers from the SOA like before? El Salvador will be at the gates of the place that destroyed them, like the classic Romans and the wandering tribes left out in the desert....who were abandoned to their luck....and will come back to claim retribution.


I doubt the US is interested. There is no real competition as far as security goes, no anti-American guerrillas trying to reach power or offering external powers access to military bases or anything of the sort. The Monroe Doctrine isn't really a factor here.

OTOH, one thing you could expect is for the US government to cut aid to El Salvador if Bukele ends up becoming a dictator and/or becomes hostile to the US. But surely, you would expect that to happen wouldn't you?

Basically, if a country doesn't want American influence then it should indeed be free to rid itself of it - but it should also put its money where its mouth is and not complain if the US government suddenly decides it doesn't want to give it economic aid or loan money.

Even personally, I doubt you'd give or loan your own money to someone who says you suck and that he doesn't want to deal with you in any way. If the person later requested your financial help, I assume you'd also reject it and wish him luck - even more so if he kept speaking shit about you behind your back, after asking you for money. Why would it be any different when it comes to foreign relations?

Also, you may find it weird but IIRC the US also intervened to support the center left in El Salvador when they were drafting their current Constitution. They elected a Constitutional Assembly in the early 1980s and the right won that election. They wanted a conservative Constitution, and wanted to turn back the clock as far as the agrarian reforms were concerned - until the US stepped in, and threatened to cut aid if they did so, effectively supporting a more centrist Constitution. The pressure worked, and the rollback was a lot milder than it would have been otherwise. The US intervened because it believed not doing so would eventually lead to a revival of the Soviet-aligned far left armed groups.

Tainari88 wrote:I do not analyze societies based on unscientific feelings. It is based on cultural anthropology tools based on taking cultural characteristics of nations and fitting them with models that work for their history, cultural milieu and matrix and their economic and social and so on goals.

This is Chile's profile. The reason Chile keeps going for socialism in the long term despite what you may think is that socialism fits their cultural tendencies. They have had a high degree of authoritarianism in the recent past and they also are class-based and unequal in many ways economically. They desire more fairness in wealth distribution. Thus why have you got Bachelet and the Libertarian socialist. There is a need for more equality because Chilean society has very clearly drawn class distinctions for a long time.

Here:

https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country/chile/


Notice that Chileans are very communally oriented people in general. Not really into Ayn Rand stuff. As a society, they are one of the most socialistic in BEHAVIOR of all of South America. It makes sense according to the criteria used. Check out the scale. Each society has differing degrees of cultural behavior. The USA is way more individualistic than Chile by a very large margin.


It's kind of hard to judge if we can't see what their model is or how it's constructed. I don't even know what the scale is or where do other countries lie.

Furthermore, you can see all sorts of comparisons when it comes to culture, including by looking at other axes. Here's an example:



Based on those axes, Chilean values are indeed not like the US - although we're similar in the secular/religious axis, Americans are more geared towards self-expression over survival (which is loosely related to individualism). But Chile is not like the rest of Latin America either in these dimensions, it's closer to the Catholic European countries or to some Western and South Asian countries.

Note this doesn't mean Chile is socialist, at all. You can be collectivist and still be capitalist, right wing and support free markets. They are not mutually opposed, at all. This is one deep misunderstanding.

Also, I don't know if you looked at my older political compass posts but I am usually between -1 and 3 in the left/right axis. That is, I'm closer to the center than either extreme. And there were many economic questions for which I'd have answered "neither agree nor disagree" if the option had been available, since the answer depends on the situation. I am far more open to big government in Europe or here in the US than in Latin America for the simple reason that the governments operate more efficiently than in Latin America. If you want me to pay higher taxes and give me better public services in return, I may as well be fine with it. I currently pay higher taxes and tax rates than I would if I lived in Chile, even earning the same salary.

I don't think there is a consensus within Latin America as far as economics goes. The debate is way more polarized than it is elsewhere and the same country can go from one extreme to the other.

I also don't think Latin American societies are as collectivist as you think they are, or at least not in the sense you seem to think. You should be able to tell by how hard it is to get the Latin American population to pay income taxes, does this look like a collectivist outlook to you? Or maybe what's actually going on is that many people want to get top notch public services without paying for them at all?
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