[Tainari88]

John Kirby has outright stated that the US will reject a peace deal even if Ukraine accepts it. Xi will meet with Zelensky this week. If Zelensky has no interest in a ceasefire, that is his and the Ukrainians decision and right. If they do, the US has no right to reject it out of hand.

I have no problem with Xi trying to negotiate a peace deal that is agreeable to all parties, even if this is very unlikely to come to pass. If he wants to try, godspeed. I do have a problem with the US position that ignores the Ukrainian right of self determination, especially as that is ostensibly what they're there to protect.

I mentioned before Fasces that the USA does not go for respecting the right of self determination of independent nations if it goes against their national interests. They are imperialists. Why does this fact surprise some people?

[Fasces]

How's this for a headline @Tainari88. Very revealing.

US Fears a War-Weary World May Embrace China’s Ukraine Peace Bid

According to one administration official, who asked not to be identified discussing internal deliberations, the US is worried about being backed into a corner over the Chinese proposal. Regardless of the US reservations, dismissing it outright could let China argue to other nations that are weary of the war — and of the economic damage it’s wreaking — that Washington isn’t interested in peace.

If the US spurns the agreement, “China will likely ramp up messaging that the US is opposed to a cease-fire, that the US is opposed to the end of the war,” said Bonny Lin, a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies who once served at the Pentagon. “There will be lots of ways in which China will try to spin whatever comes from the China-Russia meeting in a way that seeks to portray the US in negative light.”

The debate over China’s version of a peace plan highlights just one of the many uncomfortable realities that were brought home by Xi’s three-day visit this week to Moscow, which saw the Chinese leader greeted warmly by Putin. The two countries pledged to deepen their partnership even further.

The Biden administration has tried to keep China on the sidelines since the start of the Ukraine invasion, but the opposite appears to have happened. Even as Xi and Putin grow closer, China is finding a receptive audience for its broader diplomatic push around the globe.

At a Senate hearing on Wednesday, Senator Jeff Merkley asked Secretary of State Antony Blinken to respond to what the Oregon Democrat called a “three-day bro-fest with Putin and Xi celebrating authoritarian power.” Blinken acknowledged it was a continuation of the two nations’ pledge right before the war of a “partnership with no limits.”

“This is no surprise — both countries have very different worldviews than our own,” Blinken said. “They may find common cause in opposing the worldview that we and so many other countries around the world seek to defend and advance.”

Blinken didn’t mention all the countries that have refused to take sides despite US urging.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ify%20wall

[JohnRawls]

How's this for a headline @Tainari88. Very revealing.

You recently said that nobody should decide how the peace should look like besides Ukraine. Now you are bringing an argument that the World might support a Chinese plan that almost totally contradicts Ukraniane ideas on peace.

[Fasces]

You recently said that nobody should decide how the peace should look like besides Ukraine. Now you are bringing an argument that the World might support a Chinese plan that almost totally contradicts Ukraniane ideas on peace.

You're really stretching to come up with this interpretation. The article is about US attitudes, not Ukraine's.

Ukraine is the alpha and omega when it comes to deciding peace - and it should arrive to that decision independently, without coercion, one way or the other.

[JohnRawls]

You're really stretching to come up with this interpretation. The article is about US attitudes, not Ukraine's.

Ukraine is the alpha and omega when it comes to deciding peace - and it should arrive to that decision independently, without coercion, one way or the other.

May be, but Ukranian ideas are almost in-line with what the US says on peace compared to being totally contradictory to what China says.

[wat0n]

What are China's concrete peace proposals?

Also, I doubt Ukraine will sit to talk since it is preparing to launch an offensive to attempt to retake some territory anyway.

[late]

What are China's concrete peace proposals?

Also, I doubt Ukraine will sit to talk since it is preparing to launch an offensive to attempt to retake some territory anyway.

China doesn't have anything. China wants to stay friendly with Putin, and talk won't get them hit by sanctions.

[Rich]

I mentioned before Fasces that the USA does not go for respecting the right of self determination of independent nations if it goes against their national interests. They are imperialists. Why does this fact surprise some people?

Apologies if I have I misunderstood your view, but you seem to be saying that Fort Buchanan should not be a US military base, despite the majority of people of Puerto Rico wanting to be part of the United States, while you're happy to pursue a brutal war, even risking a nuclear war in order to turn Sevastopol into an America Naval Base, despite the opposition of the large majority of Crimea's inhabitants.

[Tainari88]

How's this for a headline @Tainari88. Very revealing.

Fasces, the issue is this line that I copied from your article:

Blinken didn’t mention all the countries that have refused to take sides despite US urging.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ify%20wall

I am sick to death of the Russian/Chinese etc opposition cutting up the pie of the world into USA slice, Chinese slice, Russian slice.

No, none of our nations are pieces of a pie that only belongs to the Chinese PRC or the Russian Federation Fascist, or the USA Empire.

Start dumping this aggressive notions of wanting to control the world and slice it up like a pie!!

I am for the non-aligned movement. If Ukraine can defend its sovereignty without the Russians and the Americans wanting to manipulate it and feeling beholden to the USA after the war is over and having to cede its sovereignty either to the Putin dictator man or to some lobbyists in Washington DC who have to be selling war machinery and Defense department tools to the entire world in order to stay in business for perpetuity? We are in deep caca in this world.

War following on the heels of a worldwide pandemic is not a good thing.

It needs to come to an end as soon as possible.

I also think Ukraine has a right to either negotiate peace with Russia or to say no, we continue on with the war until we get our lands back completely and Putin agrees to never invade in the future.

It is up to them. If you are a true friend to Ukraine? You respect the decision of the Ukrainian people and their democratically elected leadership. You give aid for self-defense and you also pressure Russian aggression.

But you never assume you know more than Ukraine.

That is the issue with the USA. They think they have a right to dictate to the world what they should do. Whether it be the European Union or the rest of the world. It comes from that Empire mentality. That is what is wrong with the Imperial Mindset. It is the invade and take it all thought process. We are better. My ambitions are paramount.

All it creates is death, destruction, chaos, and heartache. Rebuilding countries after a war are a very expensive and very draining and long process. People are left traumatized, and angry. It requires enormous amounts of energy to just get back to normalcy. Why do these Cucaracha mentality dictators and their cronies in many parts of their societies think they can get away with that shit? Because no one in their home nations stand up to these FREAKS.

You got to stand up to them. But Putin uses fear as a weapon of mass internal control destruction. If you stand up to the system you go to jail, you get disappeared, get fired from your job, lose your income, your family is persecuted, and you fear for your life.

But there comes a time in life when you got to define your values in this world. What are you willing to fight for to make it better? Human rights? Civil rights? A better country for your own children? A better system for all? It is not easy.

I am a minority political thinker in my own country. Most react in my nation are the same as the Russians in the Russian Federation under Putin. They have to go along with the powerful group because they are SCARED SHITLESS of bucking the system. But if you don't fight an unfair system that ignores your human rights? When does it get better eh? The answer is NEVER!!

It fucking NEVER GETS BETTER! You got to face that problem and deal with it. Even if only one fucking percent of your fellow citizens have the COURAGE for it. Because if no one stands up to these assholes it never gets better.

[Tainari88]

Apologies if I have I misunderstood your view, but you seem to be saying that Fort Buchanan should not be a US military base, despite the majority of people of Puerto Rico wanting to be part of the United States, while you're happy to pursue a brutal war, even risking a nuclear war in order to turn Sevastopol into an America Naval Base, despite the opposition of the large majority of Crimea's inhabitants.

Rich, I do not understand your thought process. My position is that everyone has a right to be a sovereign and independent nation. The USA nor the Russian Federation have a right to interfere in sovereign states. Do they? Yes. So it is simple for me. The aggressor is in the wrong. It is that simple.

Puerto Rico became part of the USA through an invasion. The Puerto Ricans voted against being part of the USA in 1917. The USA IGNORED that and through an act of congress made Puerto Ricans US citizens. If you read Congress's reasoning for making us US citizens in 1917 it was because they needed soldiers for the building of the Panama Canal zone and they had interests in economic and military in that region of the world Rich. They never cared about Puerto Rico's desires for itself. It was about US interests.

Statehood for Puerto Rico is something recent Rich. It was funded by the USA and it was a minority party for a long time. It is now gaining momentum because people are sick of the dysfunctional patch-up limbo status of ELA that has been held up as the best of two worlds when it is the worst of two worlds. It gives no real rights to the Puerto Ricans and it also does not allow us enough autonomy to grow our economy and become stable.

Since you believe in colonialism and empire and you believe in superiority and racist doctrines I won't be wondering why you interpret things the way you do. I frankly think you have no idea how independence movements actually work in the world. They are bloody, complicated and difficult. If you are a tiny island and you got a MONSTER of 330 million people and with enormous wealth, political influence and totally dedicated machine of propaganda telling its populace that all they need is a vote and their democratic votes will be respected? And people believe all those lies? Then many like you will think I am the one in the wrong.

You really should realize that the colonized people are actually just as intelligent, just as educated, and just as worthy and capable of ruling their own societies as your own country is Rich. But that is expecting you to truly believe in equality and not in fascist Master Race bullshit. Which is too much for many to think of.....

Peace is about respecting other people's rights as much as you do your own. If you are not capable of doing that for the Ukrainians or the other nations who have determined their own path and independence?

Then it is your turn to explain why you think people should not aspire to be respected as equals in this world. And why should people expect to be slaves to those who disrespect them as human beings for all eternity without a fight? Answer that one Rich?

[Fasces]

May be, but Ukranian ideas are almost in-line with what the US says on peace compared to being totally contradictory to what China says.

Again, Zelensky has asked to meet with Xi. I'll wait for what they actually say, not what the US says on their behalf.

[Fasces]

What are China's concrete peace proposals?

Also, I doubt Ukraine will sit to talk since it is preparing to launch an offensive to attempt to retake some territory anyway.

The Chinese proposal is:

1) Russia pulls out of all occupied regions of Ukraine, including Crimea, unless Ukraine consents to the annexation (it won't).

2) NATO/EU ceases all expansion into states bordering Russia and gives Russia a permanent "veto" on expansion into those regions (practically speaking, Ukraine). Obviously, Ukraine can't negotiate on behalf of other Eastern European powers. Obviously, the US and EU would have their own problems with this. That being said, if Ukraine is willing to make that agreement (give Russia a veto on whether Ukraine joins the EU/NATO) then the EU and NATO should accept that.

Obviously any deal first and foremost should require Ukranian consent. I am against the US/EU/Russia/China deciding for Ukraine or Eastern Europe what Ukraine or Eastern Europe should do.

[wat0n]

The Chinese proposal is:

1) Russia pulls out of all occupied regions of Ukraine, including Crimea, unless Ukraine consents to the annexation (it won't).

2) NATO/EU ceases all expansion into states bordering Russia and gives Russia a permanent "veto" on expansion into those regions (practically speaking, Ukraine). Obviously, Ukraine can't negotiate on behalf of other Eastern European powers. Obviously, the US and EU would have their own problems with this. That being said, if Ukraine is willing to make that agreement (give Russia a veto on whether Ukraine joins the EU/NATO) then the EU and NATO should accept that.

That's DOA. I think Putin might get away with Finlandizing Ukraine, and this is not very likely to be honest, but even Finland joined the EU.

Any proposal that doesn't accept Ukraine will leave the Russian sphere of influence after the latter has proven unable to assert dominance over Ukraine by military force will most certainly be rejected by Ukraine.

Now, I'm sure China may just take it as a starting position but what I'm seeing is that Zelensky is not rejecting the offer outright to avoid being painted as an obstacle to peace.

[Fasces]

That's DOA. I think Putin might get away with Finlandizing Ukraine, and this is not very likely to be honest, but even Finland joined the EU.

Any proposal that doesn't accept Ukraine will leave the Russian sphere of influence after the latter has proven unable to assert dominance over Ukraine by military force will most certainly be rejected by Ukraine.

I've said as much on here. I don't think it will go anywhere. Some people just want my position to be something else than it is.

If it can go anywhere, I hope the US will let it. I don't like the optics of Kirby speaking "for" Ukraine.

Now, I'm sure China may just take it as a starting position but what I'm seeing is that Zelensky is not rejecting the offer outright to avoid being painted as an obstacle to peace.

Well, that's what peace negotiations usually are. You start with the untenable and work toward the tenable - often "against your will" out of a desire to not be painted as unreasonable .

[wat0n]

I've said as much on here. I don't think it will go anywhere. Some people just want my position to be something else than it is.

If it can go anywhere, I hope the US will let it. I don't like the optics of Kirby speaking "for" Ukraine.

I agree, Kirby should just say the US thinks it's DOA and leave it there.

Well, that's what peace negotiations usually are. You start with the untenable and work toward the tenable - often "against your will" out of a desire to not be painted as unreasonable .

True, but point #2 is basically existential for Ukraine. I think it will likely let Russia keep Crimea and other territories if it can't retake them, but there's no way it will accept being part of its sphere of influence ever again.

[Rancid]

The Chinese proposal isn't aligned to Ukrainian interests enough.

At the end of the day, Ukraine should decide what Ukraine needs/wants.

[Tainari88]

The United States proposal isn't aligned to Puerto Rico's interests enough.

At the end of the day, Puerto Rico should decide what Puerto Rico needs/wants.

I fixed it for you Rancid.

This is the issue I have with IMPERIALISM.

If the needs and wants do not align---the imperialistic IGNORE the other invaded nations' needs and wants.

It creates a bad precedent and it never gets resolved. Ever. Only bloody problems and poverty and people packing bags and leaving their homeland. That is always the final result. Diasporas and abandonment of the land that was occupied by those people whom the Empire invaded.

It is not a long term solution.

But they voted. The votes are never legally binding. Ever. It is all lies and manipulations.

It sickens me. Because unless that damn mentality is given up none of these actions will result in peace in the future either.

[JohnRawls]

I fixed it for you Rancid.

This is the issue I have with IMPERIALISM.

If the needs and wants do not align---the imperialistic IGNORE the other invaded nations' needs and wants.

It creates a bad precedent and it never gets resolved. Ever. Only bloody problems and poverty and people packing bags and leaving their homeland. That is always the final result. Diasporas and abandonment of the land that was occupied by those people whom the Empire invaded.

It is not a long term solution.

But they voted. The votes are never legally binding. Ever. It is all lies and manipulations.

It sickens me. Because unless that damn mentality is given up none of these actions will result in peace in the future either.

Considering Costa Rica is not at war with, I don't know Mexico but okay. You do understand that even if you consider it a good argument then you are basically blaming China and portrays US as a anti-imperialist power. This just makes Rancid comment kinda right.

[Rich]

@Tainari88 I'm sorry but you seem to be the imperialist here, the racist. The will of the Crimean people has now been made clear over multiple votes. Your vision is a NATO boot grinding into a Crimean Russian face for ever. Just because Crimean Russians don't have dark skin doesn't mean they don't have the right to determine their own future. Its always the same with you NATO loving imperialists. When the Kosovans want to have self determination, well then we must launch a war to give them self determination. But when the overwhelmingly Serbian North Kosovo majority wants self determination, then oh no we don't care about that.

[Tainari88]

Considering Costa Rica is not at war with, I don't know Mexico but okay. You do understand that even if you consider it a good argument then you are basically blaming China and portrays US as a anti-imperialist power. This just makes Rancid comment kinda right.

Costa Rica? What does that have to do with what I said John? Costa Rica is an independent nation in Central America. Their slogan is Pura Vida. Lol. The Capital is San José. I am from an island in the Caribbean, that is not independent and who's citizens are US citizens through the Foraker Act and so on? One is an independent nation that is not an island in the Caribbean and that have Costa Rican citizenship, and the other is an unincorporated US territory that has statutory US citizens on it.

One has people called Ticos short for costarricenses, that need to get a green card and a visa to live in the USA, and the other people Puerto Ricans can get on a plane and move without visas.

But in your mind they are the same? Why?

Ok, I get it.....Estonia, is the same as Croatia. Or is it Slovenia? It is all the same...some Melania Trump person, is really Estonian. All those Eastern European ex Communist colonies are all the same. Small places with no power with some poverty stricken people who eat Borscht. Because Russian food is Estonian food....it is all the same.

Think about how stupid that sounds to you John?