[Fasces]

Isn't it ironic that China whines about the West being ideological yet still labels itself 'communist'?

To be specific, China labels itself as a developing socialist state (transitioning from capitalist to socialist*) led by a Leninist vanguard party toward communism. It does not claim to be communist, today.

* capitalist defined as the period of time in which the national bourgeoisie and the Leninists are working together to develop the state from a feudal/colonialist society; socialist as the period of time in which the Leninist party excises the national bourgeoisie from decision-making.

Oh really. Here's a prediction: Xi will invade Taiwan if he thinks his military can do it without creating too much of a mess.

I doubt it. The official position of the CPC is that a peaceful reunification is inevitable. Xi even met with the Taiwanese chair of the KMT in Fujian some months ago.

There will be an invasion of Taiwan under Xi Jinping only if Taiwan declares independence, the US recognizes Taiwanese independence, or the US begins moving enough material into Taiwan so as to suggest an imminent declaration/recognition of independence.

[Fasces]

China is a country with one of the longest histories in the world. The people of all of China’s nationalities have jointly created a culture of grandeur and have a glorious revolutionary tradition.

After 1840, feudal China was gradually turned into a semi-colonial and semi-feudal country. The Chinese people waged many successive heroic struggles for national independence and liberation and for democracy and freedom.

Great and earthshaking historical changes have taken place in China in the 20th century.

The Revolution of 1911, led by Dr. Sun Yat-sen, abolished the feudal monarchy and gave birth to the Republic of China. But the historic mission of the Chinese people to overthrow imperialism and feudalism remained unaccomplished.

After waging protracted and arduous struggles, armed and otherwise, along a zigzag course, the Chinese people of all nationalities led by the Communist Party of China with Chairman Mao Zedong as its leader ultimately, in 1949, overthrew the rule of imperialism, feudalism and bureaucrat-capitalism, won a great victory in the New-Democratic Revolution and founded the People’s Republic of China. Since then the Chinese people have taken control of state power and become masters of the country.

After the founding of the People’s Republic, China gradually achieved its transition from a New-Democratic to a socialist society. The socialist transformation of the private ownership of the means of production has been completed, the system of exploitation of man by man abolished and the socialist system established. The people’s democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants, which is in essence the dictatorship of the proletariat, has been consolidated and developed. The Chinese people and the Chinese People’s Liberation Army have defeated imperialist and hegemonist aggression, sabotage and armed provocations and have thereby safeguarded China’s national independence and security and strengthened its national defence. Major successes have been achieved in economic development. An independent and relatively comprehensive socialist system of industry has basically been established. There has been a marked increase in agricultural production. Significant advances have been made in educational, scientific and cultural undertakings, while education in socialist ideology has produced noteworthy results. The life of the people has improved considerably.

The victory in China’s New-Democratic Revolution and the successes in its socialist cause have been achieved by the Chinese people of all nationalities, under the leadership of the Communist Party of China and the guidance of Marxism-Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought, by upholding truth, correcting errors and surmounting numerous difficulties and hardships. China will be in the primary stage of socialism for a long time to come. The basic task of the nation is to concentrate its effort on socialist modernization along the road of Chinese-style socialism. Under the leadership of the Communist Party of China and the guidance of Marxism-Leninism, Mao Zedong Thought, Deng Xiaoping Theory and the important thought of Three Represents, the Chinese people of all nationalities will continue to adhere to the people’s democratic dictatorship and the socialist road, persevere in reform and opening to the outside world, steadily improve socialist institutions, develop the socialist market economy, develop socialist democracy, improve the socialist legal system and work hard and self-reliantly to modernize the country’s industry, agriculture, national defence and science and technology step by step and promote the coordinated development of the material, political and spiritual civilizations, to turn China into a socialist country that is prosperous, powerful, democratic and culturally advanced.

The exploiting classes as such have been abolished in our country. However, class struggle will continue to exist within certain bounds for a long time to come. The Chinese people must fight against those forces and elements, both at home and abroad, that are hostile to China’s socialist system and try to undermine it.

Taiwan is part of the sacred territory of the People’s Republic of China. It is the inviolable duty of all Chinese people, including our compatriots in Taiwan, to accomplish the great task of reunifying the motherland.

In building socialism it is essential to rely on workers, peasants and intellectuals and to unite all forces that can be united. In the long years of revolution and construction, there has been formed under the leadership of the Communist Party of China a broad patriotic united front which is composed of the democratic parties and people’s organizations and which embraces all socialist working people, all builders of socialism, all patriots who support socialism, and all patriots who stand for the reunification of the motherland. This united front will continue to be consolidated and developed. The Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference, a broadly based representative organization of the united front which has played a significant historical role, will play a still more important role in the country’s political and social life, in promoting friendship with other countries and in the struggle for socialist modernization and for the reunification and unity of the country. The system of the multi-party cooperation and political consultation led by the Communist Party of China will exist and develop for a long time to come.

The People’s Republic of China is a unitary multi-national State created jointly by the people of all its nationalities. Socialist relations of equality, unity and mutual assistance have been established among the nationalities and will continue to be strengthened. In the struggle to safeguard the unity of the nationalities, it is necessary to combat big-nation chauvinism, mainly Han chauvinism, and to combat local national chauvinism. The State will do its utmost to promote the common prosperity of all the nationalities.

China’s achievements in revolution and construction are inseparable from the support of the people of the world. The future of China is closely linked to the future of the world. China consistently carries out an independent foreign policy and adheres to the five principles of mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, mutual non-aggression, non-interference in each other’s internal affairs, equality and mutual benefit, and peaceful coexistence in developing diplomatic relations and economic and cultural exchanges with other countries. China consistently opposes imperialism, hegemonism and colonialism, works to strengthen unity with the people of other countries, supports the oppressed nations and the developing countries in their just struggle to win and preserve national independence and develop their national economies, and strives to safeguard world peace and promote the cause of human progress.

This Constitution, in legal form, affirms the achievements of the struggles of the Chinese people of all nationalities and defines the basic system and basic tasks of the State; it is the fundamental law of the State and has supreme legal authority. The people of all nationalities, all State organs, the armed forces, all political parties and public organizations and all enterprises and institutions in the country must take the Constitution as the basic standard of conduct, and they have the duty to uphold the dignity of the Constitution and ensure its implementation.

http://www.npc.gov.cn/zgrdw/englishnpc/ ... 372962.htm

[Rugoz]

To be specific, China labels itself as a developing socialist state (transitioning from capitalist to socialist*) led by a Leninist vanguard party toward communism. It does not claim to be communist, today.

* capitalist defined as the period of time in which the national bourgeoisie and the Leninists are working together to develop the state from a feudal/colonialist society; socialist as the period of time in which the Leninist party excises the national bourgeoisie from decision-making.

China will rediscover the 'univeralism of communist ideology' (not really its content) when it has the power to force its shit on the West. That's just how the world works. I'm all for neutrality and national sovereignty, but given that's a pipe dream I side with the team that has the better ideas for humanity.

I doubt it. The official position of the CPC is that a peaceful reunification is inevitable. Xi even met with the Taiwanese chair of the KMT in Fujian some months ago.

There will be an invasion of Taiwan under Xi Jinping only if Taiwan declares independence, the US recognizes Taiwanese independence, or the US begins moving enough material into Taiwan so as to suggest an imminent declaration/recognition of independence.

You deliberately did not quote "He's an ambitious bastard. These people are the same everywhere."?

China is a one-man show now. That guy wants to leave a 'great legacy'.

[Fasces]

You made your prediction and I made mine. If PoFo is still around in 10-20 years, it'll be settled.

[Patrickov]

As Fasces said, it's also because all the other colonial currencies were hobbled by WW2.

That's not an important point, and by using "also" you have acknowledged my reason to be correct, which is what all that matters.

*And yet* it was China who got Saudi Arabia and Iran to start cooperating again. Western liberal values were too eager to sell weapons, and to divide the oilfields of the world into warring camps.

Saudi Arabia and Iran are both tyrannical bullies. There is no surprise that Saudi leaves the Western liberal camp and joins the Chinese-Russian camp of oppression.

Yes, China has evolved quite a bit since the end of the Century of Humiliation. That you don't seem to like this... is not likely due to your affinity for traditions that you yourself probably don't follow.

I am Chinese and follow a lot of Chinese traditions so I know what's good and bad about it.
Mao was wrong by destroying (the good part of) Chinese traditions through the Cultural Revolution, but Chinese culture is not reputed for its respect of individual rights (confiscation and familial execution has been the norm), as well as other cultures (e.g. their predecessor dynasty or surrounding non-farming cultures) to begin with.

They deserve every bit of the Century of Humiliation. And they at least deserve another because NEVER learned from it.

[Patrickov]

A summary of my response to others' points. (I have replied QatzelOk specificly as he only made one post)

1. I disagree with @Politics_Observer and @Rugoz point that "If China is a democracy Taiwan will accept unification".
Didn't you guys see Quebec, Scotland and Catalonia against Canada, the UK and Spain respectively? All of the bigger countries are fully functional democracies, yet there are people who want to be independent.
Taiwan, albeit for its Civil Law system and Chinese social values (yes, they are like that despite being democratic. Some Hongkongers made mistake by expecting UK style rule-of-law there), will at least for this generation NOT wanting to be part of China, regardless of how advanced its society and politics has evolved.

2. It's debatable whether China wants to occupy anywhere more than Taiwan.
They probably want to push their marine borders to the doors of Vietnam, Phillipines and Japan (i.e. all of South Sea islands and the Diaoyu), but as far as I perceive that's it. The reason is the same as what @Politics_Observer claimed, but for that purpose Taiwan itself is really enough. Unless, of course, China thinks they need to defeat the United States, but that's another story.

Meanwhile, many anti-Chinese (CCP) people call the Chinese (CCP) out for not trying to do a reconquista of the (currently) Russian terrotories taken away from the Qing, but they don't realize the climate of those places are quite harsh. Even the part of Manchuria which China currently possesses can go to very low temperatures (comparable to the South Pole in summer) in winter, and those Hans migrated there a few generations ago eventually found places like Hong Kong much more habitable.

3. @Fasces' claim that China wants "equal relationship between countries" is non-factual.
He's not necessarily telling lie to deceive us, but his claim is non-accurate and the reality is not as moral as it sounds.
What the Chinese actually are after is "equal relationship between state leaders". They either naively think that states represent the people within, or deliberately ignore the fact that many if not most countries they deal with do not represent the people within. Given China's own system, the latter is far more likely.

China, of course, wants other countries to submit to them in some kind of tributary system (like the Tang or Qing used to have), but they don't have to turn other countries into dictatorships themselves to achieve that. The fact of "dictatorships are more likely to turn to them" does not mean they are bothered to make it happen quickly or on a large scale. Also, dictatorships tend to turn to China because their "leaders" depend on this bigger bad to live on, but unlike the West and the Russians, the Chinese are lazier and have neither will nor power to force their system worldwide (thank God for that).

Take South Korea as an example. It's a fully functional democracy, but compared with Japan or Taiwan (both of which have a sea to protect themselves from China), SK is more submissive to Chinese advances both because of their land borders (NK is, in some sense, a buffer country for both sides and, in some sense, all sides are probably happy to let it be despite its rougeness), and Korea being forced into submission and annexation by Japan a century before.

[Patrickov]

There will be an invasion of Taiwan under Xi Jinping only if Taiwan declares independence, the US recognizes Taiwanese independence, or the US begins moving enough material into Taiwan so as to suggest an imminent declaration/recognition of independence.

I suspect conditions 1 and 3 are inevitable if and when CCP continues its way like this.

As much as the US deliberately pushed the Japanese to war with them in the 1940s, the CCP is doing the same to Taiwan, maybe less intentionally but with equal push force if not more.

[QatzelOk]

Saudi Arabia and Iran are both tyrannical bullies...

Chinese ...deserve every bit of the Century of Humiliation. And they at least deserve another because NEVER learned from it.

With all your hatred of various countries, you would be a great ally of Western arms dealers, not a great diplomat or humanitarian with ideas for improving the human condition.

Quebec, Scotland and Catalonia

Taiwan isn't just "another Quebec." The histories are vastly different, as are the political stakes.
Why not compare Taiwan to Versailles, or to the the Titanic?

[Politics_Observer]

@Fasces

The Chinese do not care about the internal governments of other states. They will work with a democrat, a sheikh, a warlord, the Taliban, etc.

Well, the Chinese government didn't seem to be willing to work with the democratically elected government of Hong Kong when they took over. They probably won't get along well with free societies which are free to criticize others, including China, if they were to take Taiwan and expand their influence in the Pacific. Given that Tibet was much weaker, China certainly had no problems invading Tibet in 1950 and replacing the government there with their brand of autocracy and extracting their resources.

@Patrickov

Didn't you guys see Quebec, Scotland and Catalonia against Canada, the UK and Spain respectively?

I don't think the case of Taiwan and China are similar to the case you listed above. Fundamentally, the Chinese Civil War was about what sort of political and economic system should rule China. Unfortunately, the communists won that Chinese Civil War, which sent the opposing side to Taiwan. If both sides agreed on what political and economic system should govern Taiwan, there would have been no Chinese Civil War.

[Fasces]

Well, the Chinese government didn't seem to be willing to work with the democratically elected government of Hong Kong when they took over. They probably won't get along well with free societies which are free to criticize others, including China, if they were to take Taiwan and expand their influence in the Pacific. Given that Tibet was much weaker, China certainly had no problems invading Tibet in 1950 and replacing the government there with their brand of autocracy and extracting their resources.

The operative word is other states. Hong Kong and Tibet are not other states.

And I don't think you know a thing about the Red Army's occupation of Tibet, to be frank.

[Rugoz]

You made your prediction and I made mine. If PoFo is still around in 10-20 years, it'll be settled.

Why? If Taiwan isn't stupid, it will arm itself to the teeth ASAP, that might be enough to make an invasion incredibly messy and undesirable.

Moreover, I don't think China will have the power to force its shit on us, at least not in Europe and America.

[Fasces]

There's no desire in Taiwan: nobody wants to sign up; everyone hates conscription; the political leaders are more concerned with vanity purchases than effective ones. Read the white papers.

In both sides they're fine with the status quo. It's only the west that isn't.

[Rancid]

There's no desire in Taiwan: nobody wants to sign up; everyone hates conscription; the political leaders are more concerned with vanity purchases than effective ones. Read the white papers.

In both sides they're fine with the status quo. It's only the west that isn't.

Xi is a "man of history". Strongly doubt he wants the status quo on Taiwan.

[Rugoz]

There's no desire in Taiwan: nobody wants to sign up; everyone hates conscription; the political leaders are more concerned with vanity purchases than effective ones. Read the white papers.

That's certainly changing, though maybe not fast enough.

In both sides they're fine with the status quo. It's only the west that isn't.

What utter nonsense. The status quo is de-facto independence. The West hasn't pushed Taiwan towards de jure independence at all.

Xi is a "man of history". Strongly doubt he wants the status quo on Taiwan.

Even without Xi being a "man of history", a fact to which Fasces is completely oblivious, one can reasonably expect the CCP to take Taiwan by force once it becomes sufficiently easy for them. Taiwan has been a thorn in their side since the very beginning.

[Patrickov]

With all your hatred of various countries, you would be a great ally of Western arms dealers, not a great diplomat or humanitarian with ideas for improving the human condition.

I do think human condition can only be improved if those who oppresses others as well as their apologizers who lie to us in the name of humanitarianism / socialism / etc., are taken off the equation.

I do think the arm dealers are actually virtuous in this sense, or at worst, necessary evil.

[Patrickov]

Taiwan isn't just "another Quebec." The histories are vastly different, as are the political stakes.
Why not compare Taiwan to Versailles, or to the the Titanic?

I don't think the case of Taiwan and China are similar to the case you listed above. Fundamentally, the Chinese Civil War was about what sort of political and economic system should rule China. Unfortunately, the communists won that Chinese Civil War, which sent the opposing side to Taiwan. If both sides agreed on what political and economic system should govern Taiwan, there would have been no Chinese Civil War.

My point is mainly a response to the claim of @Politics_Observer that "if China is democratic Taiwan will accept unification". My take is this point of PO is plain wrong.

Different styles of living of different people already guarantee separation even if they are of the same ethnics or origin. Taiwan has been too different both socially and geographically to be willing to unify with China now. Even if China is fully free and democratic it won't help.

Unless it's also as great as the Five Eyes, but I don't see that happening, and frankly even the Five Eyes (e.g. United Kingdom) are not necessarily centripetal.


To elaborate my point, though, I would like to point out that there are at least 6 different kinds of citizens in Taiwan.

1. Aboriginals. They kind of like what @QatzelOk is in Canada. Small in numbers, but probably the best claim to be a native Taiwanese.
2. Han Chinese immigrants from the 17th century to 1945. While they have been under Qing rule for a long time, they have also been under Japanese rule, and some of them (Lee Teng-hui, for example) identify themselves as Japanese, or at least a distinct race from Han Chinese.
3. KMT immigrants, i.e. Han Chinese (or other races in China) immigrants after 1945 but before 1980. They are probably the ones closest to fitting @Politics_Observer 's perception, that they will accept unification when China becomes free and democratic.
4. Descendants of 2 and 3 who are used to the freedom brought upon them after the 1980's.
5. Recent immigrants from China and / or Hong Kong who are CCP sympathetic or even CCP spies.
6. Recent immigrants from China and / or Hong Kong who are NOT CCP sympathetic.

My take is that, due to the current status of China, both the government and the people, group 3 is on the decline, and groups 2, 4 and 6 have the strongest voice. These are all ardent supporters of the DPP, the current ruling party in Taiwan.

The only wrench in the mix is group 5, but they are, like group 3, intruders who, IMHO, should be removed.

[QatzelOk]

...3. KMT immigrants, i.e. Han Chinese (or other races in China) immigrants after 1945 but before 1980. They are probably the ones closest to fitting @Politics_Observer 's perception, that they will accept unification when China becomes free and democratic.

This group is similar to the Batista-loyalists who fled to Miami after the Cuban Revolution. Correct?

Or the United Empire Loyalists who fled to Canada after the American Revolution.

Reactionaries with a huge, entitled chip on their shoulder.

And wasn't Chiang Kai-shek a Nazi-style warlord?

...In September of 1986 in Keelung City at the sea close to Taipei, a distressed middle school teacher dialed the parents of one of his female pupils – the Guos. He said he hadn’t consulted with the authorities yet, but that he suspected their daughter, Dangdang (12), was a pathological liar, and cruel to birds, frogs and stray dogs, and that without early intervention, we could be looking at a dangerous psychopathy in its early stages. That teacher, Li Guoyu, (27), was stabbed in the stomach, chest and his eye sockets 15 times outside his apartment building on Lane 319 Nanrong Road, driven far to the coast of Xin Zhuangzi north of Taipei, and thrown off the cliff into the ocean.

The Triad

The Guos had arrived in Taiwan in 1948 by ship from Guangzhou in tow of the military warlord Chiang Kai-shek and his treacherous Nationalist Party, technically the former Nazi Party of China.

The National Party seized power in Mainland China in 1928 and sided with the Japanese invaders and American imperialists to defeat communism. The Chinese, although betrayed, impoverished and semi-colonized by foreign powers, fought a 300 million people‘s guerrilla war. They liberated China and drove out the Nazis, the Americans and the Japanese, and thus forced Chiang Kai-shek’s war criminals to retreat to the island of Taiwan...

[Patrickov]

This group is similar to the Batista-loyalists who fled to Miami after the Cuban Revolution. Correct?

Or the United Empire Loyalists who fled to Canada after the American Revolution.

No, because the KMT have somewhere to go to (and prove themselves), instead of having to flee entirely like the Cubans or Vietnamese in exile.

Reactionaries with a huge, entitled chip on their shoulder.

Ironically, the other groups in Taiwan, as well as myself in some extent, see them similarly.
Although we see them as reactionary, useless China collaborators.

To be fair, though, the KMT survived well into the democratic age, and had won the regime back fair-and-square.
If not for the current China, they won't look as bad as you or I see them now.

And wasn't Chiang Kai-shek a Nazi-style warlord?

He's at worst a Francisco Franco.