[Fasces]

Which of the following statements do you agree with?

Category I: Gender Affirming Care (Non-Medical)

1. Being respectful of others and using their preferred pronouns
2. Allowing people to dress and present as their preferred gender
3. Governments can recognize name changes and gender changes on legal documentation
4. Sports leagues can choose to allow transgendered people to compete in the format of their choosing
5. Institutions can choose to allow transgendered people to use facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)
6. All of the above, for minors, with parental consent (for institutions and leagues, those that cater to minors)
7. All of the above, for minors, regardless of parental consent
8. Require institutions to use of a person's preferred pronouns (hate crime for deliberate misgendering)
9. Require individuals to use of a person's preferred pronouns (hate crime for deliberate misgendering)
10. Institutions cannot prevent people from dressing or presenting as their preferred gender (protection for sexual identity at work, school, etc)
11. Institutions cannot prevent people from using facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)
12. Sports leagues are required to allow transgender to compete in the format of their choosing
13. All of the above, for minors (for institutions and leagues, those that cater to minors)

Category II: Gender Affirming Care (Medical)

1. Adults can choose to use hormones and other drugs to alter phsyiology to match preferred gender
2. Adults can choose to use surgical procedures to alter physiology to match preferred gender
3. Minors can do the above, with parental and medical consent.
4. Minors can do the above, without parental consent and with medical consent.
5. Minors can do the above, with parental consent and without medical consent.
6. Minors can do the above, without parental or medical consent.

Category III: Gender Theory

1. Gender dysmorphia is real. (There exist people and they can choose to identify as cis or trans)
2. Gender is a social construct. (You can be assigned a different gender at birth than your physiology; your gender is changable)
3. Sex is a social construct. (You can change your sex)

--------------------------

Personally, I would describe anyone who can't even agree with Category I: a through f as outright transphobic. I don't think a meaningful conversation on transgender issues can happen with people who can't accept even a to f, and they're not worth having with those people.

To answer the poll: I do not personally identify as transphobic.

[Puffer Fish]

I'm open to the idea that a small number of people currently identifying as "trans" might be innately trans.
But I think a bigger part of this is a giant fad, often appealing to the already vulnerable and emotionally troubled, and that this "movement" is not healthy in many or most cases.

Just because there might exist a few individuals for whom this is the "right" choice for does not mean it is the right choice for all those who've become convinced they want it.
I happen to suspect it is the wrong choice for most of the individuals now choosing it.

[wat0n]

Which of the following statements do you agree with?

Category I: Gender Affirming Care (Non-Medical)

1. Being respectful of others and using their preferred pronouns
2. Allowing people to dress and present as their preferred gender
3. Governments can recognize name changes and gender changes on legal documentation
4. Sports leagues can choose to allow transgendered people to compete in the format of their choosing
5. Institutions can choose to allow transgendered people to use facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)
6. All of the above, for minors, with parental consent (for institutions and leagues, those that cater to minors)
7. All of the above, for minors, regardless of parental consent
8. Require institutions to use of a person's preferred pronouns (hate crime for deliberate misgendering)
9. Require individuals to use of a person's preferred pronouns (hate crime for deliberate misgendering)
10. Institutions cannot prevent people from dressing or presenting as their preferred gender (protection for sexual identity at work, school, etc)
11. Institutions cannot prevent people from using facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)
12. Sports leagues are required to allow transgender to compete in the format of their choosing
13. All of the above, for minors (for institutions and leagues, those that cater to minors)

Agree: a, b, c, d, e, f

For the sports league questions, I think it would be a joke in most sports but I don't think it warrants any government action - nobody forces athletes to compete in those leagues

Not sure/need more info/depends/partially agree:

• j: Depends on the institution
• k: Not sure, to be honest - I don't have a clear opinion on this one, although I tend to agree I also don't know how this works for fraudulent cases
• m: Also depends on the question, institutions, etc

Disagree: g, h, i, l

Category II: Gender Affirming Care (Medical)

1. Adults can choose to use hormones and other drugs to alter phsyiology to match preferred gender
2. Adults can choose to use surgical procedures to alter physiology to match preferred gender
3. Minors can do the above, with parental and medical consent.
4. Minors can do the above, without parental consent and with medical consent.
5. Minors can do the above, with parental consent and without medical consent.
6. Minors can do the above, without parental or medical consent.

Agree: a and b

Not sure:

• c and d: I don't think the science is settled on this one.
• e: I would only allow it if 1) the taxpayer does not fund it or any subsequent treatment arising from this decision, 2) the child has the right to sue his parents for damages for allowing the surgery in the case there are regrets as an adult

Disagree: f

Category III: Gender Theory

1. Gender dysmorphia is real. (There exist people and they can choose to identify as cis or trans)
2. Gender is a social construct. (You can be assigned a different gender at birth than your physiology; your gender is changable)
3. Sex is a social construct. (You can change your sex)

Agree: a and b, for b I will qualify the statement as being a biologically based social construct but still a social construct nonetheless. As in, gender roles are what they are because of how societies adapt to human biology and the state of technology. Technology however is (and will likely keep) making biological sex less and less important over time.

Disagree: c

[Rich]

Which of the following statements do you agree with?

[*]Institutions cannot prevent people from using facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)

--------------------------

Personally, I would describe anyone who can't even agree with Category I: a through f as outright transphobic. I don't think a meaningful conversation on transgender issues can happen with people who can't accept even a to f, and they're not worth having with those people.

To answer the poll: I do not personally identify as transphobic.

Well by your definition even the Scottish Nationalist Party has come out as Transphobic and are not worth talking to. Should rapists be allowed to change to women and be allowed to serve their sentences in women's prisons? This is not some nonsense thought experiment like the ticking nuclear time bomb, that the Liberals used to justify kidnapping, torturing and caging foreigners after 9/11, no this is a real issue.

In the end the Scottish National Party owned up and confessed that so called Trans Women are not real women and can never have the same rights as real women.

I do actually have my own solution to this problem, which I'm not going to reveal for now until I've heard other people's opinions, but it actually makes me the most pro Trans and arguably the most woke member of the forum.

[Fasces]

:lol: Well by your definition even the Scottish Nationalist Party has come out as Transphobic and are not worth talking to.

I know reading is hard, Rich.

Category I: a through f is transphobic

The selection you quoted is Category I: k.

F comes before K in the alphabet.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

[Godstud]

Category I:
a, b, d, e, j

Category II:
a, b

Category III:
a, b

[Rich]

I know reading is hard, Rich.

The selection you quoted is Category I: k.

F comes before K in the alphabet.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z

Oh well you got me. I failed to read the question attentively.

[skinster]

Which of the following statements do you agree with?

Category I: Gender Affirming Care (Non-Medical)

1. Being respectful of others and using their preferred pronouns

Fine being respectful but respect goes both ways: don't demand others lie / change language - in this case, pronouns - that don't match what we see.

Allowing people to dress and present as their preferred gender

This is fine. Wear what the hell you like.

Governments can recognize name changes and gender changes on legal documentation

Sure these changes can happen, but they don't change reality. In fact, they distort it, because now there's an increase of crimes attributed to "women" who are basically men who identify as women.

Sports leagues can choose to allow transgendered people to compete in the format of their choosing

No. Males should compete with males and females with females. People identifying as "trans" can make their own category if the former doesn't serve them, just like people with disabilities did.

Institutions can choose to allow transgendered people to use facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)

No. Stop males from invading female spaces.

All of the above, for minors, with parental consent (for institutions and leagues, those that cater to minors)

No.

All of the above, for minors, regardless of parental consent

No.

Require institutions to use of a person's preferred pronouns (hate crime for deliberate misgendering)

Require individuals to use of a person's preferred pronouns (hate crime for deliberate misgendering)

Institutions cannot prevent people from dressing or presenting as their preferred gender (protection for sexual identity at work, school, etc)

This is fine. People should be allowed to wear what they want and the rest of us can laugh if it's funny, no biggie..

Institutions cannot prevent people from using facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)

They should.

Sports leagues are required to allow transgender to compete in the format of their choosing

No.

All of the above, for minors (for institutions and leagues, those that cater to minors)

No. Stop with this child abuse.

Category II: Gender Affirming Care (Medical)

1. Adults can choose to use hormones and other drugs to alter phsyiology to match preferred gender
2. Adults can choose to use surgical procedures to alter physiology to match preferred gender

Sure, but they should pay for the latter like any other cosmetic surgery need. They should probably also be taught that changing their presentation doesn't mean they are now their "preferred gender"

Minors can do the above, with parental and medical consent.

Minors can do the above, without parental consent and with medical consent.

Minors can do the above, with parental consent and without medical consent.

Minors can do the above, without parental or medical consent.

Minors should not be medicated or mutilated.

Category III: Gender Theory

1. Gender dysmorphia is real. (There exist people and they can choose to identify as cis or trans)

Dysphoria is real but it should be treated, not have the delusions encouraged. Just as we see with people with anorexia or those who want healthy parts of their bodies amputated.

Gender is a social construct. (You can be assigned a different gender at birth than your physiology; your gender is changable)

Gender is a social construct and is basically sex-related stereotypes which should not be perpetuated, but dismantled and abolished, as feminists had been trying to do until this men's rights movement came along in the last couple of decades and tried to reify that which feminists sought to abolish since day dot...and then the aformentioned MRAs/TRAs acted surprised feminists wouldn't go along with this happy horseshit, but this is by the by.

Nobody is assigned anything at birth, you are born either male or female and you will die the same way.

Sex is a social construct. (You can change your sex)

Sex is a biological reality not open to changing.

Personally, I would describe anyone who can't even agree with Category I: a through f as outright transphobic. I don't think a meaningful conversation on transgender issues can happen with people who can't accept even a to f, and they're not worth having with those people.

At this point I am the made up phobia called "transphobic" because I refuse to conform to this harmful delusion that anyone can transition to the opposite of what they are, and I think it's child-abusing to let kids think they are born in a "wrong body". I would also argue it's hard to have a conversation with the cultists who believe men can be women, since if you lie about something as obvious to our eyes and instincts as what a person is (male or female), then you're capable of lying about just about anything.

But anyway, this is a discussion forum so I suppose people can believe in any wacky thing they like...

[Rich]

I always look to compromise when it comes to pronouns. Take the case of Charles, as a fair minded compromise I shall continue to refer to him as Prince, the same as I do with his Royal Highness, his war hero brother. My reasoning is that only the most deranged narcissist would see being called Prince as disrespectful. Oh and I presume Charles' Wife prefers to be called Mrs Windor as opposed to Miss or Ms. But if she wants me to address her as Ms Windsor or They Windsor, I will of course respect her{his, them?) wishes.

I guess I'm just an old fuddy duddy with silly outdated ideas, but I did it find it strange that under our new Liberal dispensation Prince Phillip was not eligible to become King, but he was eligible to become Queen. I guess we were lucky that Prince Phillip never had a sex change (or should that be gender change). It could have been a bit of a catch 22. To not call him Queen would have been disrespectful, yet calling him a Queen could have been interpreted as a hate crime.

Although I may better comprehend @Fasces question(s), like any good politician I'm still not going to give it a straight answer. I have been a life long progessive Liberal when it comes to social values. Unless I'm very much mistaken @skinster is not a social reactionary. I very much doubt she spent her earlier years, prowling the streets looking to beat up homosexuals and lesbians. She like so many of us is a social progressive who has reacted back against against aggressive trans activism and ideology. in fact I would go as far as to say that there is no clearer example of toxic masculinity than aggressive male to female Trans activism.

We've learned our lesson, giving Transsexuals what may superfically seem reasonable and kind, will always be used as leverage to gain more.

[skinster]

^ You can just call the royals parasites and be done with it.

Unless I'm very much mistaken @skinster is not a social reactionary. I very much doubt she spent her earlier years, prowling the streets looking to beat up homosexuals and lesbians. She like so many of us is a social progressive who has reacted back against against aggressive trans activism and ideology. in fact I would go as far as to say that there is no clearer example of toxic masculinity than aggressive male to female Trans activism.

This is what they don't get. I'm absolutely fine with homosexuality, it is a natural phenomenon observed in other animals (unlike troonery) and when these groups fought for their rights it was because they lacked them, whereas the trannies are trampling all over the rights of women and think women will just sit back and accept it. Trans activism is aggressive, women have been intimidated into silence, got doxxed for their positions, been beaten and raped and killed for opposing gender ideology, but the trans activists here who think they're ever so great people think ignoring all of that makes it not be a thing when it very much is a thing. It is toxic masculinity too, so obviously so. Women don't threaten others for not conforming to their beliefs. Trans activism is patriarchy in a dress and women won't wheesht.

[Fasces]

it is a natural phenomenon observed in other animals

To be fair, how far are we on communicating with cats? Some of them might have gender dysmorphia.

[skinster]

To be fair, how far are we on communicating with cats? Some of them might have gender dysmorphia.

I think this reinforces my point, not yours.

[ingliz]

gender dysmorphia

Quoting a professor emeritus of cognitive neuroimaging at Aston University, Birmingham...

Of course, there are sex differences. Anatomically, men and women are different. The brain is a biological organ. Sex is a biological factor. But it is not the sole factor; it intersects with so many variables.

Brains reflect the lives they have lived, not just the sex of their owners.

[Fasces]

Being respectful of others and using their preferred pronouns
Allowing people to dress and present as their preferred gender
Governments can recognize name changes and gender changes on legal documentation
Sports leagues can choose to allow transgendered people to compete in the format of their choosing
Institutions can choose to allow transgendered people to use facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)
All of the above, for minors, regardless of parental consent

I find these as common sense. Parental rights are a shield for abuse, and parents are often the worst enemy of homosexual or trans children, so I don't care about parental consent in these cases.

Require institutions to use of a person's preferred pronouns (hate crime for deliberate misgendering)

I wouldn't require it for individuals.

Institutions cannot prevent people from dressing or presenting as their preferred gender (protection for sexual identity at work, school, etc)
Institutions cannot prevent people from using facilities of their preferred gender (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc)
All of the above, for minors (for institutions and leagues, those that cater to minors)

Basic discrimination protections for individuals.

Sports leagues are required to allow transgender to compete in the format of their choosing

I probably wouldn't make it required. Its such a marginal issue, anyway, and I have no problem leaving it up to leagues themselves to decide. I just don't really care.

Adults can choose to use hormones and other drugs to alter physiology to match preferred gender
Adults can choose to use surgical procedures to alter physiology to match preferred gender
Minors can do the above, with parental and medical consent.

Same principles that apply to most other types of healthcare or elective cosmetic procedures. Easy to agree with.

Gender dysmorphia is real. (There exist people and they can choose to identify as cis or trans)
Gender is a social construct. (You can be assigned a different gender at birth than your physiology; your gender is changable)

Again, I just consider this the default.

I don't see why people care so much about this issue, specifically cis people. 99% of trans content I am exposed to on a daily basis comes from right wing outrage spigots, at any rate.

[wat0n]

I find these as common sense. Parental rights are a shield for abuse, and parents are often the worst enemy of homosexual or trans children, so I don't care about parental consent in these cases.

How about the parental consent of the cis children who share the space?

E.g. in the case of bathrooms.

[Fasces]

What about parental consent of people who prefer their children not to interact with those of a different race, religion, or sexual orientation?

[Godstud]

What about parental consent of people who prefer their children not to interact with those of a different race, religion, or sexual orientation?

That's not the same thing, and you know it. Females and males have spaces for their sexes, and if people don't fit into that, then accommodations can be made.

Women have fought for their own spaces in society and Trans activism is attempting to take away what they have fought for.

Trans rights should not come at the cost of women’s fragile gains
Trans people face substantial injustices, most significantly violence (perpetrated, like all violence, largely by men) and discrimination. The process of applying for a gender-recognition certificate is intrusive and burdensome for many, and there are frustrating waiting lists for medical transition, which are compounded when doctors appear unsympathetic or obstructive. Yet rather than confront male violence or lobby the medical system, the focus of trans activism has overwhelmingly been the feminist movement, spaces and services designed for women, and the meaning of the word “woman”.

There is a word for a situation where women talking about female bodies is considered impermissibly antisocial, where describing the consequences of sexism for women is systematically impeded, where resources for women are redistributed to male users while resources for men are left in male hands, and where “male” and “female” are rigidly associated with masculinity and femininity. That word is not “progressive”, “liberal” or any of the other terms usually associated with trans activism. The word is misogyny. Trans rights should not come at the cost of women’s fragile gains.
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2 ... gile-gains

[Fasces]

That's not the same thing, and you know it.

I'm not saying you have to invite a transman to your private book club hosted in your living room, if you don't want too, or befriend, go out with, or live with such a person. If you want the benefits of being a registered non-profit or benefit from tax grants or are otherwise in any way a public institution, or business serving the public - you don't get to make discriminatory choices.

If you're angry about the transgendered person at XYZ place... don't go.

Yet rather than confront male violence or lobby the medical system, the focus of trans activism has overwhelmingly been the feminist movement, spaces and services designed for women, and the meaning of the word “woman”.

I don't follow. Why are you supporting the targetting of individuals for the actions of a group they may not affilitate with? That some nasty or stupid groups exist claiming to represent a person exist does not justify discrimination against that person. Are you the type of person that would imprison a random Thai Muslim because of the actions of ISIS?

Collective punishment is against the Geneva Conventions, my friend. You're trying to rationalize a war crime. That's one action you, as an individual, are choosing to take.

[wat0n]

What about parental consent of people who prefer their children not to interact with those of a different race, religion, or sexual orientation?

I think you know it's not the same thing.

Indeed, bathrooms and changing rooms aren't a wholly public space and some privacy is normally expected.

Or what, do you normally enter women's restrooms or changing rooms?

[Rugoz]

What is the "preferred gender/pronoun"? The legal one?