[Pants-of-dog]

All the studies in the world couldn't get me to support your pseudoscientific cult.

There is no long-term evidence showing trans-identifying kids are happier when they get medicated and mutilated.

You can bring whatever you like from the bought science to defend your position but people with DSDs do not change the rule of our species, the sex binary and how it's not open to change, even with hormones and mutilation.

Since you have not read the evidence nor present any evidence, having an evidence based debate with you does not seem possible.

The myth is that men can be women and women can be men, if they say so. As if any of us get to choose

They're given puberty blockers to children and teenagers and some children are getting mastectomies under the age of 18. Here's one story who got her breasts removed at 17:


Here's one who got the same at 13:


Here's one at 16:

So it happens in the USA and other undeveloped countries where medicine is for profit.

I am 100% in support of removing profile motive from healthcare.

They don't change their sex because it is not open to change.

They are lying. You are lying. But you can't see it, because you're in a cult. And it's definitely not our side of the debate that's confused.

It is not lying to say that people receive gender affirming care.

No, for both groups we tell them to accept their bodies as they are, without hurting them, either via starvation or taking experimental medication that sterilised them and surgery that mutilates them.

I understand that you want to see our relative positions that way.

Something for you to read.

This is lazy debating on your part. I am not going to read your pundits for you to glean your argument for you. Besides, that merely shows that gametes become either sperm or ova depending on their environment of implantation. That does not contradict how chromosomes work.

Do you disagree with the biological facts presented? If so, how?

You can have the opposite/wrong sex hormones but that doesn't open you to change your sex. What the hell are you talking about?

Sex is not open to change. It's impossible to change it. With hormones, with surgeries or whatever amount of wishing that comes from your ilk.

And yet, people change it.

No, I was pointing out that the minority of people you lot use as a sheild to defend your cult have sex-specific disorders which reinforce mine, nature and science's points about the sex binary, which again, is immutable.

This does not contradict anything I have said. It is merely speculation about my motives.

Also, thinking if these people as being sick and having disorders is, as @wat0n pointed out, a social construct.

I didn't say X is the sole arbiter of whatever, that's you. It's you lot that try to use junk science and bring it chromosomes or hormones as if you have think any of this changes the fact that our sex is not open to change. A man performing female stereotypes, for example, will never have a baby, for example.

I didn't say it's only about genetics, just dealing with your boring points. Sex is immutable. Stop lying to people that it is not because that's some psychotic shit going on.

And sex is a social construct according to you? Sex is a biological reality and preceded any ideas humans have had, you nutter. I can't believe you're making that claim.

Good,

So you agree that sex is not determined solely by genetics, but instead is indicated by several factors.

And no, no one claimed that sex is a social construct. Your sex binary paradigm seems to be one, though.

[skinster]

Since you have not read the evidence nor present any evidence, having an evidence based debate with you does not seem possible.

Debate doesn't seem possible with you either since you're in a cult that believes in gendered souls and supports the sterilisation and mutilation of children, but here we are.

So it happens in the USA and other undeveloped countries where medicine is for profit.

I am 100% in support of removing profile motive from healthcare.

The point is children are getting mutilated and hurt by sterilisation medication you support, amongst other things (see below), and this is what you are out here cheerleading for.

It is not lying to say that people receive gender affirming care.

But that's not what I said, I said sex is not open to change and that is a fact that you deny.

This is lazy debating on your part.

Well nothing I say will convince you because you're in a cult, but the information isn't necessarily for you.

Besides, that merely shows that gametes become either sperm or ova depending on their environment of implantation. That does not contradict how chromosomes work.

Do you disagree with the biological facts presented? If so, how?

Human gametes are either sperm or ova, thanks for accepting that biological reality. And depending on which one has, confirms their sex, which is not open to change.

And yet, people change it.

No, they don't change their sex. While they can change their hormones and mutilate themselves to change their secondary sex characteristics, they cannot change their sex.

So you agree that sex is not determined solely by genetics, but instead is indicated by several factors.

No, I said sex is not open to change, despite the other stuff you keep babbling about, such as hormones and chromosomes.

And no, no one claimed that sex is a social construct. Your sex binary paradigm seems to be one, though.

My sex binary is a social construct?

If only I were that powerful. But I did not create the human species. Are you denying the sex binary? If so, what are the names of the other sexes beyond male and female?

[Pants-of-dog]

Debate doesn't seem possible with you either since you're in a cult that believes in gendered souls and supports the sterilisation and mutilation of children, but here we are.

The point is children are getting mutilated and hurt by sterilisation medication you support, amongst other things (see below), and this is what you are out here cheerleading for.


Well nothing I say will convince you because you're in a cult, but the information isn't necessarily for you.

If your only response is to tell me that you think I am a big mean poopypants, I will move on….

But that's not what I said, I said sex is not open to change and that is a fact that you deny.

Human gametes are either sperm or ova, thanks for accepting that biological reality. And depending on which one has, confirms their sex, which is not open to change.

No, they don't change their sex. While they can change their hormones and mutilate themselves to change their secondary sex characteristics, they cannot change their sex.

No, I said sex is not open to change, despite the other stuff you keep babbling about, such as hormones and chromosomes.

And yet people change their sex. You can stamp your foot and say it is not so, but it happens.

My sex binary is a social construct?

If only I were that powerful. But I did not create the human species. Are you denying the sex binary? If so, what are the names of the other sexes beyond male and female? :?:

No one said you created this social construct, You just happen to believe it and confuse it with fact.

[Godstud]

And yet people change their sex. You can stamp your foot and say it is not so, but it happens.

Lies. This is the stupidity that your cult teaches you. They change how they look. They don't change their sex.

Trans people want to appear and be seen as a member of the opposite sex. They do things to attain this goal but realize that they will always be Trans. You can never change your biology(genetics/chromosomes). Even if a male transitions to a female they would still be prone to diseases that appear mostly in men, because of their biology. They would still have the things that identify them as male, be it increased bone density, muscle mass, greater upper body strength, etc.)

A person who has hormone therapy and changes their genitalia does not change their sex or gender. They are just changing how they appear. Biologically they are still male or female, and not something in between. The science does not dispute this immutable fact. The REAL Trans people know this. The activists and fakers pretend this reality isn't real and they can just BE whatever they believe. This, of course, goes against reality.

The pseudoscience that you present is that same cult trying to justify their delusion. Science shows that anomalies in gender/sex are rare(less that 2%). This cult would make you think that it's 20% or higher. You've bought into this delusion, @Pants-of-dog. It's one of self-delusion, immorality, and perversity.

[Pants-of-dog]

Prove it.

You guys just keep repeating it “sex can’t change sex can’t change sex can’t change”.

Prove it. Show me it can not change.

[Godstud]

You're capping. Nothing you have shown, @Pants-of-dog, is evidence that sex can be changed. Sure, you can change how you appear and identify, but you aren't changing your biological sex. You aren't changing your genetic and biological makeup. You are just altering it to appear as a person of another gender, or some fucked up thing in between the two.

Humans cannot change sex, which was determined at fertilization (genotype) and during embryonic development (phenotype). People may change many features about their lives, such as their interests, hobbies, diet, friends or careers. However, some facts are unalterable. A person’s genetic inheritance, their biological sex, is an immutable characteristic. It is possible to change a person’s outward appearance, including bodily features. Clothing, make-up and prostheses might be used by some people to modify how they look.

While the use of exogenous opposite sex hormones and surgery is known as ‘medical transitioning’, these do not change a person’s underlying biological sex.

2023 Clinical Advisory Network on Sex and Gender

https://can-sg.org/frequently-asked-questions/can-humans-change-sex/#:~:text=Humans%20cannot%20change%20sex%2C%20which,%2C%20diet%2C%20friends%20or%20careers.

[Pants-of-dog]

That was unconvincing.

They seem to define sex as genetic and then admit the rest can be changed.

But they also seem to be a questionable source.

[Godstud]

A questionable source, for you is : We are a group of UK and Ireland based clinicians calling for greater understanding of the effects of sex and gender in healthcare?

There is no convincing a brain-washed bigot like yourself, @Pants-of-dog, especially when facts contradict your cult's beliefs.

[Pants-of-dog]

I understand why you and that group think sex cannot be changed and why you want to believe that.

That does not mean it is a convincing argument.

It is not even original and has already been shown to be (minimally) a vast over simplification of human sex, in this thread.

All it shows me is that people will continue to hold the same opinion even after contradicting facts have been brought before them. Which is not news.

[Unthinking Majority]

Prove it.

You guys just keep repeating it “sex can’t change sex can’t change sex can’t change”.

Prove it. Show me it can not change.

Arguing sex can be changed is the most ridiculous argument of all-time.

Can a white person change their race to a black person by dyeing their skin?

If someone held you against your will and cut off your dinky doo and made you ingest hormones until you grew bigger boobs would you then consider your sex as male or female?

A man having a fake vagina with their balls shoved up a hole in their taint doesn't make someone a woman. It's all fake.

[Pants-of-dog]

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scich ... treatment/

Medical Transition Starts During Adolescence or Later
The Education First Alliance blog post does not clearly state what it means when it says North Carolina institutions are “transitioning toddlers.” It refers to treatment and hormone therapy without clarifying the age at which it is offered.

Only in the final section of the piece does it include a quote from a doctor correctly stating that children are not offered surgery or drugs before puberty.

To spell out the reality of the situation: The North Carolina institutions are not providing surgeries or hormone therapy to prepubescent children, nor is this standard practice in any part of the country.

Programs and physicians will have different policies, but widely referenced guidance from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health and the Endocrine Society lays out recommended care at different ages.

Drugs that suppress puberty are the first medical treatment that may be offered to a transgender minor, the guidelines say. Children may be offered drugs to suppress puberty beginning when breast buds appear or testicles increase to a certain volume, typically happening between ages 8 to 13 or 9 to 14, respectively.

Generally, someone may start gender-affirming hormone therapy in early adolescence or later, the American Academy for Pediatrics explains. The Endocrine Society says that adolescents typically have the mental capacity to participate in making an informed decision about gender-affirming hormone therapy by age 16.

Older adolescents who want flat chests may sometimes be able to get surgery to remove their breasts, also known as top surgery, Olezeski said. They sometimes desire to do this before college. Guidelines do not offer a specific age during adolescence when this type of surgery may be appropriate. Instead, they explain how a care team can assess adolescents on a case-by-case basis.

A previous version of the WPATH guidelines did not recommend genital surgery until adulthood, but the most recent version, published in September 2022, is less specific about an age limit. Rather, it explains various criteria to determine whether someone who desires surgery should be offered it, including a person’s emotional and cognitive maturity level and whether they have been on hormone therapy for at least a year.

The Endocrine Society similarly offers criteria for when someone might be ready for genital surgery, but specifies that surgeries involving removing the testicles, ovaries or uterus should not happen before age 18.

“Typically any sort of genital-affirming surgeries still are happening at 18 or later,” Olezeski said.

There are no comprehensive statistics on the number of gender-affirming surgeries performed in the U.S., but according to an insurance claims analysis from Reuters and Komodo Health Inc., 776 minors with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria had breast removal surgeries and 56 had genital surgeries from 2019 to 2021.

[wat0n]

Can a white person change their race to a black person by dyeing their skin?

Yes, it's possible to do that.

viewtopic.php?p=15161242#p15161242

Unlike sex, race's genetic basis is far, far more tenuous. Particularly since there is much more to race than just skin pigmentation, and it is far less clear which phenotypes define race and which genes encode them. Determining race from a physical examination is harder than doing the same for sex (more prone to error).

As in, two people with similar skin pigmentation aren't necessarily considered to be part of the same race.

[ingliz]

@Godstud

A recent survey of these confused youngsters showed that 21% of teenagers with gender dysphoria have attempted suicide, and 31% have persistent intrusive suicidal thoughts.

What do you suggest should be done?

Let them die and hope the problem solves itself, or should we intervene?

[Godstud]

A recent survey of these confused youngsters showed that 21% of teenagers with gender dysphoria have attempted suicide, and 31% have persistent intrusive suicidal thoughts.

Surveys are flawed now, because the Trans ideology gets pushed so hard amongst young people.

Let them die and hope the problem solves itself, or should we intervene?

Help them learn to love who and what they are actually are. Teach them to be comfortable in their own skin.

Stop lying to them about how they can change their gender identity though drugs and operations, simply because it "feels" a certain way. Part of the problem is that they are being groomed in schools by this new woke ideology that is harmful to the youth and society at large.

Gender dysphoria only affects a very tiny percentage of people(Fewer than 1 in 10,000 people suffer from Gender Dysphoria). Trans ideology would make you think it's far more common and most of the young people claiming they were mis-gendered, and identifying as the other sex are doing so to fit into a group, or because it's a fetish. When you get 20% of the youths claiming this sort of thing, there is something else at work. It's ideological grooming in the education system.

[ingliz]

When you get 20% of the youths claiming this sort of thing

You don't.

A 2018 study found that potentially around 1.3 percent of 16-to-19-year-olds had clinically significant gender dysphoria.

Studies using short self-reports of gender identity and its variance suggest that 0.17%–1.3% of adolescents and young adults identify as transgender. A school-based survey eliciting gender experiences with scales commonly used at gender identity services suggested that 1.3% of 16–19-year-olds had potentially clinically significant gender dysphoria.

— R. Kaltiala-Heino et al. Gender dysphoria in adolescence: current perspectives

[Pants-of-dog]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/no-social ... -1.6013686

No, 'social contagion' isn't driving transgender teens, study finds

In what's being described as the largest study attempting to tackle a damaging narrative surrounding transgender health, researchers looked at data on more than 90,000 teenagers across the U.S. and found no evidence that "social contagion" is driving transition rates among trans or gender diverse adolescents.

Researchers say teens assigned female at birth (AFAB) were no more likely than teens assigned male at birth (AMAB) to identify as trans or gender diverse, potentially refuting a core tenet of an idea experts say is currently being leveraged politically to eliminate health care for trans youth.

In the study published Wednesday in Pediatrics, the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), researchers looked at national data collected in the U.S. in 2017 and 2019 in order to challenge the controversial theory of "rapid onset gender dysphoria" (ROGD).

This theory, viewed by many experts and critics as transphobic, suggests that many teens suddenly decide to transition as teenagers purely to fit in with friends, likening transition to a dangerous fad.

A 2021 position statement co-signed by more than 60 international health-care and scientific organizations, including several Canadian ones, condemned the theory, stating that "there are no sound empirical studies of ROGD.”

….article continues….

So, the hypothesis that trans folk are identifying as the other sex are doing so to fit into a group seems incorrect.

[skinster]

And yet people change their sex. You can stamp your foot and say it is not so, but it happens.

If you believe in the cult of gender, sure. In reality, humans cannot change their sex.

No one said you created this social construct, You just happen to believe it and confuse it with fact.

Human sex binary is not a social construct. The only thing that is a social construct in this discussion is the concept of gender identities, which was made popular by the psychopath below. I recommend clicking on the link and following that dark origin story.


Biology is a science that cannot be overridden by the gender religion, despite the attempts of its advocates.

There is no confusion on my part, PoD, sex is not a spectrum and if it is, again, tell me the names of the other sexes besides males and females?

Even your religion accepts the sex binary, insofar as attempting to "transition" from one part of that binary to another.

Lies. This is the stupidity that your cult teaches you. They change how they look. They don't change their sex.

Arguing sex can be changed is the most ridiculous argument of all-time.

It is really wild that some of them actually claim this. Those amongst them who are less obviously insane admit it's about identity, not sex, which at least can make some sense. But these ones, who fight reality to this degree, and expect others to go along with it, are indeed ridiculous.

What do you suggest should be done?

Let them die and hope the problem solves itself, or should we intervene?

Do you think lying to children about what they are, unnecessarily medicating them to the point of worsening their health, sterilising them and mutilating their breasts and genitalia are better options over treating with therapy that promotes acceptance of who they are?

No, 'social contagion' isn't driving transgender teens, study finds

Girls are "transitioning" in greater numbers because girls are highly prone to social contagions. Anorexia is another recent one.


The numbers at Tavistock:

in 2009, it had 97; by 2020, this figure was 2,500
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/ ... ng-at-gids

Also:

Once a child was on blockers, they were rarely offered follow-up appointments. Gids did not keep in touch with its patients in the long term, or keep reliable data on outcomes.

^ My point before of how once kids are placed on puberty blockers, little follow-up is offered, as confirmed in Hannah Barnes book on the insanity that went on in that clinic, reviewed above.

[ingliz]

Human sex binary

Sex & Gender

As a clinical geneticist, Paul James is accustomed to discussing some of the most delicate issues with his patients. But in early 2010, he found himself having a particularly awkward conversation about sex.

A 46-year-old pregnant woman had visited his clinic at the Royal Melbourne Hospital in Australia to hear the results of an amniocentesis test to screen her baby's chromosomes for abnormalities. The baby was fine—but follow-up tests had revealed something astonishing about the mother. Her body was built of cells from two individuals, probably from twin embryos that had merged in her own mother's womb. And there was more. One set of cells carried two X chromosomes, the complement that typically makes a person female; the other had an X and a Y. Halfway through her fifth decade and pregnant with her third child, the woman learned for the first time that a large part of her body was chromosomally male. “That's kind of science-fiction material for someone who just came in for an amniocentesis,” says James.

— Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic, Scientific American, Nature magazine, October 22, 2018

Disorders of sex development, previously called intersex.

Researchers say as many as 1 person in 100 has some form of DSD.

[wat0n]

Sex & Gender

As a clinical geneticist, Paul James is accustomed to discussing some of the most delicate issues with his patients. But in early 2010, he found himself having a particularly awkward conversation about sex.

A 46-year-old pregnant woman had visited his clinic at the Royal Melbourne Hospital in Australia to hear the results of an amniocentesis test to screen her baby's chromosomes for abnormalities. The baby was fine—but follow-up tests had revealed something astonishing about the mother. Her body was built of cells from two individuals, probably from twin embryos that had merged in her own mother's womb. And there was more. One set of cells carried two X chromosomes, the complement that typically makes a person female; the other had an X and a Y. Halfway through her fifth decade and pregnant with her third child, the woman learned for the first time that a large part of her body was chromosomally male. “That's kind of science-fiction material for someone who just came in for an amniocentesis,” says James.

— Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic, Scientific American, Nature magazine, October 22, 2018

Disorders of sex development, previously called intersex.

Researchers say as many as 1 person in 100 has some form of DSD.

"Intersex" is not an independent sex category. It is why intersex conditions are labeled using terms like "condition", "disorder", "syndrome", etc.

[ingliz]

"condition", "disorder", "syndrome"

They are embarrassingly neither one nor t'other. But to be honest, in this argument, it's neither here nor there. The normalising sex change is usually done soon after birth, and they have no say in it.

My position amongst the brewing transexual brouhaha is a simple one.

The trans problem is piddling.

and,

It's an individual choice.

As long as the person having the procedure can give informed consent, why should I interfere? It harms no one else.