Chinese-Taiwanese Detente - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15275474
late wrote:t's not like he's trying to hide his "warrior wolf" foreign policy......


According to Fasces, "wolf warrior diplomacy" is just Chinese ambassadors being individuals, and you're racist for suggesting otherwise. :lol:

Fasces wrote:Putting aside that the US adopted an anti-Chinese strategy years before Xi was a party leader, much less country leader...


Obama's pivot to Asia strategy wasn't anti-China, it simply wasn't stupid.
#15275475
Godstud wrote::lol:

Wait... were you being sarcastic or were you actually serious?


All of these Greedy Empires act the same way. They want to play with their toys and manipulate with lies about bullshit that is not true. It is all about control and money and making money and taking over land that never originally belonged to them. Especially the USA who plays cowboys and indians and shoots up everyone who they need to control.

Kai Shek asked the British (Churchill) to give Hong Kong back. Churchill refused. None of them give up jack shit until they absolutely have to.
#15275476
Godstud wrote::lol:

Wait... were you being sarcastic or were you actually serious?


I am serious, although more likely it would become the 51st state. Puerto Rico has the problem that independence is not popular. You only get your rights if you threaten to walk away.
#15275477
Foreign Policy wrote:
Foxconn founder Terry Gou will be hoping his pro-China message finds more takers than it did in 2020.


A billionaire is making an early run for a hugely consequential presidential election next year that has the potential to reshape the world order as we know it. Meet Taiwan’s Terry Gou.

Gou announced last month that he would seek a nomination for the Taiwanese presidency from the country’s main opposition party, the Kuomintang (KMT), presenting himself as the best candidate to avoid a war with China. “Peace is not taken for granted, and people need to make the correct choice,” he said, adding that he hopes to “resolve the crisis.”

One of Taiwan’s wealthiest people, with a net worth of around $7 billion, Gou is entering the fray at a fraught geopolitical moment, offering dialogue with Taiwan’s cross-strait neighbor to dispel the growing specter of military conflict. But his deep personal and business ties with China could make him an imperfect messenger.

[...]

Gou figures friendly relations with Beijing are the best shield against a possible military invasion that is the subject of rapidly increasing concern in both Taipei and Washington. And he has spent years quite literally putting his money where his mouth is. Foxconn, the tech conglomerate Gou founded in 1974 that is now best known as the largest contract manufacturer of Apple’s iPhones, has sprawling factories in China that account for the bulk of its production and employs over a million Chinese workers.

Gou stepped down as chairman of Foxconn in 2019, the first time he ran for Taiwan’s highest office, but he failed to win a KMT primary and subsequently quit the party. The billionaire has mended fences, with the KMT at least. He’s hoping the fraught geopolitical climate will catapult him this time, making the case that the DPP’s pro-independence message will further provoke a Chinese invasion. Senior U.S. defense officials have said publicly that Beijing may make a bid to forcibly cow what it regards as a renegade province by about 2027.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/05/15/ta ... -us-china/
#15275482
Fasces wrote:"One of Taiwan’s wealthiest people, with a net worth of around $7 billion, Gou is entering the fray at a fraught geopolitical moment, offering dialogue with Taiwan’s cross-strait neighbor to dispel the growing specter of military conflict. But his deep personal and business ties with China could make him an imperfect messenger."


Wait what? I thought there's no such thing as a good billionaire.. :eh:
#15275486
Did I call him a good billionaire, @Rugoz? This thread is about the upcoming January election in Taiwan, so Gou's candidacy is relevant because it may have affected the perception of Hou Yu-ih after the KMT primaries.

Japan Times wrote:Formerly the head of the National Police Agency, 65-year-old Hou gained popularity after winning a re-election in New Taipei city late last year in a local election in which the KMT trounced the DPP.

Hou said earlier this month he objected to Taiwan’s formal independence as well as Beijing’s offer to rule the island under the “one country, two systems” formula of governance, similar to the arrangement in Hong Kong.

He has vowed to defend the Republic of China, Taiwan’s official name, if it was attacked.

Foxconn founder Terry Gou, who stepped down as the company’s chief in 2019, was also in the fray for the KMT’s nomination but congratulated Hou on Wednesday for winning and called him the “best candidate” for the party.

“I will keep my promise to do my best to support Mayor Hou’s election campaign in order to win the 2024 election and to remove the incompetent government,” Gou said in a Facebook post.

The KMT denies being pro-Beijing, although it supports maintaining good relations with China as well as the proposal that both are part of a single China though each can have its own interpretation of the term.

Despite its differences with China, the DPP has repeatedly offered talks with Beijing that have been rebuffed.

While the KMT has framed the 2024 vote as a choice between war and peace, DPP’s Lai has urged voters to choose “democracy” over authoritarianism.

Lai was leading Hou by about 5 to 10 percentage points, according to three Taiwan polls released this week.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/ ... hou-yu-ih/


VOA :x wrote:
Analysts say the decision by Taiwan’s biggest opposition party, the Kuomintang or KMT to pick a popular home-grown politician as its candidate in the island’s upcoming presidential election is a departure from its past practice but something the party sees as its best hope to return to power after eight years and improve relations with China.

[...]

To do that, the KMT is counting on ways that Hou is different from many of its previous candidates for president, analysts say.

[...]

“The uniqueness of Hou is mainly that he’s a benshengren (native Taiwanese). He doesn’t give people the feeling he’s close to China,” said Simon Chen, an associate political science professor at National Taiwan University.

That background was different from Hou’s main competitor for the candidacy, Terry Gou. Gou, the founder and retired chairman of iPhone assembler Foxconn, has 80% of his assets in China where most of his factories are located. His family also came from China with the KMT.

https://www.voanews.com/a/taiwan-s-oppo ... 98728.html
#15275487
The USA isn't too keen to recognise The Lakota's right to independence. Spain brutally suppressed the Catalan independence movement. The EU promotes secessionist movements abroad whilst opposing them at home. Let's not pretend that China's position on Hong Kong, Xinjiang or Taiwan are so unique and out of line that we need to provoke and antagonise them at every turn.
#15275549
Rugoz wrote:Nobody is threatening violence except China against Taiwan.

What the hell ? The USA is giddy to start a war with China over Taiwan. They cant stop provocating, and arming Taiwan, and they've surrounded China with military bases anyway.


Rich wrote:if Hitler had planned a future for Germany based on peaceful trade then the Autobahns might have been a good idea But given his militarism, plans for war, the dependence of the German military on the railways, which desperately needed investment and Germany's lack of secure oil supplies, the Autobahn policy was total cretinism.

Hmm ? The highways / Autobahn in Germany by the nazis was a war preparation.

It also was a sort of perverse social investment. They unnecessarily refused to use technology when building the highways, just so more people would be needed, just so every german had a job.

In the first years of the dictatorship, the nazis have been focused on fulfilling their political promises, in order to silence their critics. Only afterwards the terror really started.

Even the terror against the jews didnt start immediately at full power. The Reichskristallnacht was in 1938 - the nazi regime started in 1933.


Rugoz wrote:If the KMT is optimistic about the democratization of China, it's delusional.

How so ? Because you dont personally believe in that ?

I would see democratization as the logical next step for China.


Politics_Observer wrote: Taiwan has never been governed by the Chinese government.

WTF Taiwan literally is part of the very same country. So yes, they had the same government in the past.

More importantly no matter what your opinion is - nobody has the power to stop China. All you can get is a lot of people killed. For the exact same end result.

Pretty much 100% the same as the war in Ukraine.


Politics_Observer wrote:[...] Therefore, it is incumbent upon the United States to increase its military defense spending [...]

Oh right, the USA has insufficient military spending. Suuuuure.


Politics_Observer wrote:[...] We are not trying to instigate anything, just like NATO didn't instigate any sort of attack on Ukraine by Russia. [...]

The USA literally installed a puppet regime in Ukraine in 2014 so they can provocate Russia into a war with Ukraine. Relations between the two countries had been good before.

After 8 years of civil war in Ukraine, Russia decided to invade. Their two motives have been

1. The terrorization of ethnic russians in Ukraine, which is 30% of the population, by ukrainian nazis, which is already bad enough.

2. More importantly, Ukraine kept threatening to join NATO or develop nuclear weapons on their own, both with the goal to point nuclear weapons at Russia.

Blame Russia all you want for this, but without the meddling of the USA, the Ukraine war wouldnt have happened.

Likewise, the Taiwan war is only possible because of the US meddling.


Politics_Observer wrote:[...] I think the people of Taiwan need to prove and show they are willing to fight [...]

To archieve what exactly ? Do you seriously believe the ukrainians are losing against the russians because they arent willing, or able, to fight ?
#15275705
AFAIK wrote:The USA isn't too keen to recognise The Lakota's right to independence. Spain brutally suppressed the Catalan independence movement. The EU promotes secessionist movements abroad whilst opposing them at home. Let's not pretend that China's position on Hong Kong, Xinjiang or Taiwan are so unique and out of line that we need to provoke and antagonise them at every turn.


Lakota? You mean this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_ ... h_proposal

Is this a viable state? Does a majority of the people living there want that? Or even a sizable minority?

As for Catalonia, I absolutely do think they should have the right to secede. Is it hypocrisy if the EU does not support it? Not necessarily, because Spain arguably does not violate the EU's fundamental rights of the people living there. China tramples on those rights in Hong Kong, and would do so in Taiwan.

Besides, the EU doesn't support Taiwan's independence, nor does the US. They support the status quo, which, granted, is de facto equivalent to independence.
#15275712
Rugoz wrote:Lakota? You mean this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_ ... h_proposal

Is this a viable state? Does a majority of the people living there want that? Or even a sizable minority?

As for Catalonia, I absolutely do think they should have the right to secede. Is it hypocrisy if the EU does not support it? Not necessarily, because Spain arguably does not violate the EU's fundamental rights of the people living there. China tramples on those rights in Hong Kong, and would do so in Taiwan.

Besides, the EU doesn't support Taiwan's independence, nor does the US. They support the status quo, which, granted, is de facto equivalent to independence.

The EU cannot support secessionist movements within its member states, whether it thinks those movements are ‘justified’ or not. If the EU bigwigs were seen to be actively working to break up the integrity of their own member states, then it’s not those member states which would break up, but the EU itself. They’re not bereft of all political sense, @Rugoz. They’re not going to do it.
#15275717
Potemkin wrote:The EU cannot support secessionist movements within its member states, whether it thinks those movements are ‘justified’ or not. If the EU bigwigs were seen to be actively working to break up the integrity of their own member states, then it’s not those member states which would break up, but the EU itself. They’re not bereft of all political sense, @Rugoz. They’re not going to do it.


The EU "supports" those movements indirectly, by limiting the options governments have to deal with the problem. E.g.
https://www.catalannews.com/in-depth/it ... man-rights
(the ECHR isn't optional for EU members)

When it comes to the political support, it's not as clear-cut, since most EU members don't have to worry about secessionist movements. The UK and Spain our outstanding in that regard :lol:.
#15275795
Rugoz wrote:Is this a viable state? Does a majority of the people living there want that? Or even a sizable minority?

That's the beauty of controlling someone else's territory, you can import people who are loyal to yourself until they outnumber those who want independence. People also have a well documented status quo bias and often oppose change because they dislike change.
https://www.thoughtco.com/status-quo-bias-4172981

Spain's constitution asserts that the territorial integrity of the country cannot be challenged so Catalan's desire for independence cannot be arrived at independently. They must first seek permission from the rest of Spain before they can pursue it.
#15275797
So guys, does Catalonia in Spain deserve independence like Taiwan? How about Macedonia? Is it only because it's China that these other things aren't being seen the same way?
By late
#15275804
Godstud wrote:
So guys, does Catalonia in Spain deserve independence like Taiwan? How about Macedonia? Is it only because it's China that these other things aren't being seen the same way?



Answer your own question.
#15275807
@late I ask the question because I am curious about what your answer is, so I cannot actually answer the question, because I don't know what you think. :D
By late
#15275810
Godstud wrote:[usermention=41202]

@late[/usermention] I ask the question because I am curious about what your answer is, so I cannot actually answer the question, because I don't know what you think.



I can respond to your analysis.

What I won't do is spend all day typing up a position paper. And if you're revanchist, it would be a waste of time, would it not?

Btw, the US and the UN have positions on revanchist claims...
#15276195
Godstud wrote:So guys, does Catalonia in Spain deserve independence like Taiwan? How about Macedonia? Is it only because it's China that these other things aren't being seen the same way?

Or for that matter , how about Alsatian Independence ? Maybe the Alsace-Lorraine Soviet Republic could even be reestablished. But no, in answer to my own question, I don't feel thaf the EU and NATO would never recognize any breakaway states , no matter how much the people of the given region might popularly support independence. And the difference between Alsace and Germany and Crimea in relation to Russia, is that I don't imagine that Germany would be in favor of annexation, even if the Alsatians were to desire it.

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