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Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

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#15275579
Potemkin wrote:Absolutely right. And the USA will have only itself to blame. I think this latest ‘Woke’ movement is largely (though not entirely) a vehicle for virtue-signalling by the middle-classes, who can pose as ‘activists’ at very little personal risk. As such, it has been suborned by the ruling elite as a way of distracting people from the fundamental issue facing American society - the widening class divide and the increasing exploitation of the working class, not to mention the series of catastrophic interventions abroad. Ever since the defeat of the Left in the Anglosphere in the 1980s, the ‘Left’ has gradually pivoted away from political activism based on class conflict and moved over to identity politics, where they are allowed to operate with relative impunity. Organise a strike and they crush you; organise a sit-in for trans rights and they pat you on the back. The ruling class fear the working class and they fear activists and organisers of the working class. They don’t fear gender dysmorphic people and nor do they fear those who agitate on their behalf. The organised working class has the power to change the world. No other group in society has that power, or ever will have that power. And the point, as Marx said, is to change the world.


This sounds as if Marxist regimes (those in the real-world, not the imaginary ones) hadn't been even more destructive and exploitative of the environment and other people.
#15275580
wat0n wrote:This sounds as if Marxist regimes (those in the real-world, not the imaginary ones) hadn't been even more destructive and exploitative of the environment and other people.

The real achievement of the real-world Marxist regimes was not the liberation of the proletariat of the entire world (as Marx predicted and as Lenin devoutly believed), but the liberation of the particular nations in which they had taken power - what Mussolini called “the proletarian nations”. This was true for Russia, for China, for Vietnam, and so on. In this sense, Marxism, particularly in Asia, has taken a nationalist form rather than an internationalist form. This is most blatantly obvious in the case of North Korea, of course, which long ago dropped any pretence of being Marxist by inventing the ‘Juche’ ideology out of whole cloth. And like any other nationalist project, the respective regimes felt the necessity of making the fullest use possible of the resources at their disposal simply in order to survive. There was no way that, say, Vietnam in the 1960s were going to suddenly and miraculously turn into a workers’ paradise, given the situation in which they found themselves. The World Revolution failed in the 1920s, and that failure had dire long-term consequences, not least of which was the rise of Stalinism and the abandonment of internationalist in favour of nationalism in ostensibly Marxist nations.
#15275582
Potemkin wrote:The real achievement of the real-world Marxist regimes was not the liberation of the proletariat of the entire world (as Marx predicted and as Lenin devoutly believed), but the liberation of the particular nations in which they had taken power - what Mussolini called “the proletarian nations”. This was true for Russia, for China, for Vietnam, and so on. In this sense, Marxism, particularly in Asia, has taken a nationalist form rather than an internationalist form. This is most blatantly obvious in the case of North Korea, of course, which long ago dropped any pretence of being Marxist by inventing the ‘Juche’ ideology out of whole cloth. And like any other nationalist project, the respective regimes felt the necessity of making the fullest use possible of the resources at their disposal simply in order to survive. There was no way that, say, Vietnam in the 1960s were going to suddenly and miraculously turn into a workers’ paradise, given the situation in which they found themselves. The World Revolution failed in the 1920s, and that failure had dire long-term consequences, not least of which was the rise of Stalinism and the abandonment of internationalist in favour of nationalism in ostensibly Marxist nations.


I think it would be far more accurate to say those local elites were simply replaced by a new one.

They most certainly repressed workers if they did not like their working conditions and pay, and made it known (hence why migration was mostly from communist to capitalist countries). They were also serial polluters, not too different from capitalist countries.
#15275585
wat0n wrote:I think it would be far more accurate to say those local elites were simply replaced by a new one.

They most certainly repressed workers if they did not like their working conditions and pay, and made it known (hence why migration was mostly from communist to capitalist countries). They were also serial polluters, not too different from capitalist countries.

Indeed, because they were chasing economic growth, just like the capitalist countries. Back in 1926, Trotsky gave a speech in the Soviet Union in which he referred to the need for “primitive socialist accumulation” in the Soviet economy. What he meant by that was that the Soviet Union would have to go through the same process the capitalist countries had gone through in the 18th and 19th centuries - they would have to accumulate large reserves of capital in order to expand the means of production. Where was this capital to come from? From the working class itself, just as it had in capitalist countries. His audience didn’t like that speech one little bit, for obvious reasons. In fact, one of the main reasons Trotsky lost his power struggle against Stalin was because of his outspoken honesty about what would have to be done if the Soviet Union hoped to survive. Stalin was cannier; he kept silent about the unpleasant truth until he had ousted Trotsky, and then he proceeded to adopt Trotsky’s proposed policies wholesale. Because he knew they were necessary. What we call ‘Stalinism’ is actually Trotskyism under another name. I repeat: the Marxist countries were not and could not be workers’ paradises, for objective historical and economic reasons.
#15275597
Fasces wrote:Capitalism didn't immediately replace feudal mercantilism in all aspects the world over, either. The fact that communism is a generational project isn't the indictment wat0n seems to think it is.


Do you like DeSantis Fasces? I think the man is busting a move. Is he gonna be successful? I don't think so. He has the Trump cult. He has to face that old man Biden...if Biden survives the election process in his party.

I see Trump telling some Proud Boys to go and shut down DeSantis campaigns with violence and threats....meténle palo a ese tipo.... :lol:

He is going to wake up the fact that he is part of a crazy Cult Party.
#15275604
Potemkin wrote:Indeed, because they were chasing economic growth, just like the capitalist countries. Back in 1926, Trotsky gave a speech in the Soviet Union in which he referred to the need for “primitive socialist accumulation” in the Soviet economy. What he meant by that was that the Soviet Union would have to go through the same process the capitalist countries had gone through in the 18th and 19th centuries - they would have to accumulate large reserves of capital in order to expand the means of production. Where was this capital to come from? From the working class itself, just as it had in capitalist countries. His audience didn’t like that speech one little bit, for obvious reasons. In fact, one of the main reasons Trotsky lost his power struggle against Stalin was because of his outspoken honesty about what would have to be done if the Soviet Union hoped to survive. Stalin was cannier; he kept silent about the unpleasant truth until he had ousted Trotsky, and then he proceeded to adopt Trotsky’s proposed policies wholesale. Because he knew they were necessary. What we call ‘Stalinism’ is actually Trotskyism under another name. I repeat: the Marxist countries were not and could not be workers’ paradises, for objective historical and economic reasons.


And that stage, in reality, lasts pretty much forever.

In fact, if capitalism is at all necessary then why would I want to deal with the fakes? I'd rather just keep our current institutions which have not only been better at that "capital accumulation" thingy but also in the "general freedoms" one.

Fasces wrote:Capitalism didn't immediately replace feudal mercantilism in all aspects the world over, either. The fact that communism is a generational project isn't the indictment wat0n seems to think it is.


"Generational project" :lol:

I have some nice snake oil to sell you there.

Also, the actual communist project did last for more than a generation and it STILL didn't deliver, didn't come close to doing so and (if anything) ended up being worse at getting closer to that stage than the liberal capitalist one.
#15275607
Considering the latifundio system in Latin America, it is difficult to argue that capitalism ever finished getting rid of feudalism.

Anwyay, Desantis is careful enough to not ever point to a specific example of wokeness gone wrong. This avoids any substantial debate about this terrible scourge. Much like Lovecraft, the horrors become even more fearsome when they are left unspoken.

There is a certain irony to it. People,who are woke are accused of being insincereor false, while the entire criticism of wokeness is based on an insincere or false fear.
#15275610
Potemkin wrote:Absolutely right. And the USA will have only itself to blame. I think this latest ‘Woke’ movement is largely (though not entirely) a vehicle for virtue-signalling by the middle-classes, who can pose as ‘activists’ at very little personal risk. As such, it has been suborned by the ruling elite as a way of distracting people from the fundamental issue facing American society - the widening class divide and the increasing exploitation of the working class, not to mention the series of catastrophic interventions abroad. Ever since the defeat of the Left in the Anglosphere in the 1980s, the ‘Left’ has gradually pivoted away from political activism based on class conflict and moved over to identity politics, where they are allowed to operate with relative impunity. Organise a strike and they crush you; organise a sit-in for trans rights and they pat you on the back. The ruling class fear the working class and they fear activists and organisers of the working class. They don’t fear gender dysmorphic people and nor do they fear those who agitate on their behalf. The organised working class has the power to change the world. No other group in society has that power, or ever will have that power. And the point, as Marx said, is to change the world.


You're getting old, Pot. The tech bros are changing the world, not the obsolete working class.
#15275650
https://www.marxists.org/archive/ilyenkov/works/articles/marxist-leninist.htm
Moreover if some ideas displease you, then you should analyze the soil from which they spring and disseminate, i.e., find a theoretical solution to the real conflict, to that actual conflict from which they arise. Expose them; only in this way is it possible to fulfill that tense social demand that expresses itself at the sight of these ideas. Then, and no sooner, will unpleasant ideas disappear.

In this, essentially, is the position of the young Marx. This is not the position of a communist nor of a Marxist in the modern meaning of the word. It is simply the position of a sensible and honorable theoretician. It is precisely for this reason that Marx in 1842 did not turn to a formal analysis of contemporary communist ideas (they were indeed quite naive), nor to a criticism of the practical attempts to implement them (they were quite feeble), but rather he contemplated a theoretical analysis of the conflict within the social organism which spawned these ideas and the elucidation of that real demand which expressed itself in the form of ideas such as Utopian socialism and communism.
#15275652
Fasces wrote::D

Either the historical and material conditions on the ground of that society are relevant or they're not, wat0n. What's good for the goose...


The conditions you are referring to (starting below the technological frontier) make growth easier regardless of the economic and political system, at least in principle (i.e. if elites do what's necessary to allow the process to happen, namely, focus on capital accumulation).
#15275658
Pants-of-dog wrote:So we are comfortable ignoring the fact that a candidate for the president of the USA is actively courting hate and using this prejudice to take away civil rights.
No. He hasn't. You sure like to spread falsehoods and misrepresent things.

HB 1438 protects children from sexually explicit performances in all venues. This bill prohibits a person from knowingly admitting a minor to an adult performance. Additionally, this legislation authorizes the Department of Business and Professional Regulation to fine, suspend, or revoke the operating or alcohol licenses of hotels or restaurants if they admit a child into an adult performance.

- That must piss you off, @Pants-of-dog since child grooming is a key part of the Woke ideology that you ascribe to.

Prohibits sex reassignment surgeries and experimental puberty blockers for children.
Requires adult patients who are receiving these medications or surgeries to be informed about the dangers and irreversible nature of these procedures and to give written, informed consent.
Provides courts temporary emergency jurisdiction to step in and halt sex reassignment procedures for out-of-state children present in Florida.
Creates a pathway for individuals to obtain damages when they were injured or killed after receiving sex reassignment surgeries or medications as minors.


- So terrible to protect children and make sure those having surgeries/blockers are well informed.

HB 1069 protects students from having to declare their pronouns in school. Additionally, this bill expands parental rights in education by prohibiting classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity in Pre-K through 8th grade.

- So it's there to protect pre-teens from ideological manipulation by the Woke cult. It sounds like common sense unless you are in the Woke cult.

HB 1521 ensures that Florida’s bathrooms, changing rooms, and locker rooms are safe places for women. The bill requires educational institutions, detention facilities, correctional institutions, juvenile correctional facilities, and public buildings with a restroom or changing facility to designate separate facilities based on biological sex or to provide one-person unisex facilities.

- Yes, protecting women and children is now a bad thing. :knife:

The Governor also signed legislation to protect youth sports in Florida and ensure that all students can play sports without interference from extremist bureaucratic boards. HB 225 allows private school, virtual school, and home school students to participate in sports and other extracurricular activities at other public or private schools, regardless of zip code.

- Nothing wrong with that, is there?

https://www.flgov.com/2023/05/17/govern ... -children/
#15275663
Godstud wrote:HB 1438


https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/2 ... s-00098291

    The restaurant chain Hamburger Mary’s is suing Gov. Ron DeSantis and Florida over its recently enacted ban on minors attending drag performances, claiming that the state is depriving it of its First Amendment right of free expression.

    The suit, filed in federal court in central Florida, alleges that the law the governor signed into law Wednesday is so broad that it has “a chilling effect on protected speech.”

So Desantis is being sued for depriving free speech.

And we see a fairly popular justification fir this suppression of rights by self declared centrists.

Prohibits sex reassignment surgeries


    Florida transgender kids ask court to suspend ban on medical treatment
    They’re challenging rules recently adopted by the Boards of Medicine and Osteopathic Medicine.

    Three transgender minors and their parents are asking a federal judge in Tallahassee to temporarily suspend enforcement of Florida’s ban on medical treatment known as gender-affirming care. The plaintiffs, who are going by pseudonyms, filed a motion for preliminary injunction Monday in a lawsuit against Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo and the state’s Department of Health.

    They’re challenging rules recently adopted by the Boards of Medicine and Osteopathic Medicine, also defendants in the case, that “bar doctors from providing established medical care to transgender adolescents,” the motion says. “Because of the bans, no doctor in the state of Florida can provide the medical care (they need). Each of these minor plaintiffs will continue to suffer serious and irreparable harms if denied medical care.”

So this is also being legally challenged for depriving people of civil rights.

HB 1069


Another attack on free speech.

Not only are teachers censored, but books get banned, and parental rights for their kids' educations are limited.

HB 1521


If the science is correct, this law will actually increase the amount of sexual assault happening in bathrooms.

HB 225


This one is interesting because it shows how Desantis is giving himself the power to unilaterally create regulations based on politics rather than stakeholder consensus.

He has done the same with some university boards, basically taking over the university and threatening the jobs of everyone who does not toe the line.

Now he is doing the same with athletics.

This is how he is smarter than Trump and therefore more dangerous.

Anyway, we see (again) a lack of specific examples of wokeness gone wrong.
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