Nuclear weapons for Taiwan? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15275784
If they ask for it, should the U.S. give or sell nuclear weapons to Taiwan in the hope it will deter mainland China from attacking it? No nation with nuclear weapons has ever been conquered.

Providing nuclear weapons to Taiwan may, in the long run, be cheaper than providing conventional weapons, which would have to be replenished if the island country were attacked.

Taiwan’s small size may make it easier to target its land-based nukes, although being a small nation has not deterred Israel from developing nuclear weapons. Taiwan could place nukes among several ships carrying seemingly identical missiles, even if only a handful have nuclear armaments.
#15275787
@Robert Urbanek

Nuclear weapons are the ultimate deterrent. Just make sure to give Taiwan ballistic missile submarines that are super quiet and ensure those submarines are guaranteed to retaliate in the event of a Chinese first strike nuclear attack. That way, it does China no good to nuke Taiwan first given that Taiwan's nukes are hidden on submarines in the ocean somewhere and can retaliate upon China and destroy China in return. Give them some tactical nukes too and have the Taiwan government give up control of those tactical nuclear weapons to the local Taiwanese army commanders defending the island who are guaranteed to be the first to be attacked should China decide to attack Taiwan.

The Taiwanese government doesn't have control of those tactical nukes and if those commanders and their forces are attacked directly, they will most certainly use those tactical nukes to save their own asses from a Chinese attack. Make sure the Chinese government is aware of these ballistic missile submarines and the fact that the Taiwan government has no control of the tactical nukes and only the commanders who would be directly attacked by China should they attempt to invade Taiwan would have control of those tactical nukes.
#15275796
Robert Urbanek wrote:No nation with nuclear weapons has ever been conquered.
That's what ALLIES are for. Also, people get conquered all the time and all nukes are going to do is make it a far messier business, with possibly catastrophic results for everyone, even if they aren't involved.

Robert Urbanek wrote:Providing nuclear weapons to Taiwan may, in the long run, be cheaper than providing conventional weapons, which would have to be replenished if the island country were attacked.
If the nukes had to be used, then Taiwan would no longer exist. Replenishing anything wouldn't be an option. :knife:

If USA gave nukes to Taiwan they would be in violation of every non-proliferation treaty they signed. USA would be a rogue nation and every country in the world would think USA lost their plot. Giving nukes to anyone creates more problems than it solves, too.

Iran and other places would be free to get nukes, make them, etc. Why not nukes to Ukraine, then?
#15275803
Robert Urbanek wrote:
If they ask for it, should the U.S. give or sell nuclear weapons to Taiwan in the hope it will deter mainland China from attacking it? No nation with nuclear weapons has ever been conquered.



China has already been deterred.
#15275824
Godstud wrote:That's what ALLIES are for. Also, people get conquered all the time and all nukes are going to do is make it a far messier business, with possibly catastrophic results for everyone, even if they aren't involved.

If the nukes had to be used, then Taiwan would no longer exist. Replenishing anything wouldn't be an option. :knife:

If USA gave nukes to Taiwan they would be in violation of every non-proliferation treaty they signed. USA would be a rogue nation and every country in the world would think USA lost their plot. Giving nukes to anyone creates more problems than it solves, too.

Iran and other places would be free to get nukes, make them, etc. Why not nukes to Ukraine, then?


If Ukraine had kept the nukes that were on its soil during the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia may have never invaded their country.
#15275834
Robert Urbanek wrote:
If Ukraine had kept the nukes that were on its soil during the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia may have never invaded their country.



And if everyone in the country had won the lottery, they could have afforded it...
#15275836
Robert Urbanek wrote:If Ukraine had kept the nukes that were on its soil during the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia may have never invaded their country.


I don't know why people keep using this argument to the present day.

Because they were not theirs to keep. Can Turkey just keep US nukes stationed in Turkey?
#15275839
@noemon

I don't know if it was Russians or Ukrainians who were controlling those nukes, given that at the time, both Russians and Ukrainians were both part of the Soviet Union and those were Soviet nukes. Moreover, Ukrainians helped to build those Soviet nukes and given they were part of the Soviet Union and those nukes were on Ukrainian soil, who is to say those nukes didn't belong to Ukraine? After all, Ukrainians contributed to the national defense of the Soviet Union at the time and helped build those weapons.

If I were Ukraine, I would have claimed ownership of those nukes and ensure I could launch those nukes if necessary. If anybody tried to come in and try to take them back, those nukes would have been launched at the country attempting to take them. Nukes can be a security guarantee against invasion from another power, even if they are stronger than you, given the massive destructive power of nuclear weapons.

Nukes aren't the solution to every national security problem, but they certainly effectively deter any power from invading your country, that's for sure. Had Ukrainians managed to keep and have control over those nukes, I have no doubt, Russia would not have invaded. Now, Ukraine might have been regarded as a rogue state, but it's better to be a rogue state and guarantee your security against foreign invasion rather than not be regarded as a rogue nation and then get invaded costing you astronomical amounts of money and lives and perhaps your country's freedom and independence and subjecting your country to a cruel and brutal occupation for many years if not decades and perhaps centuries to come.
#15275840
It was Moscow that controlled the nukes and Russia is the official state that took on the responsibilities & debt of the Soviet Union. The Russian RSFR is the official successor state of the Soviet Union.

All these arguments can be made for Turkey too.

Can Turkey just keep US nukes? Only a madman would think so and the same goes for Ukraine.
#15275843
@noemon

But here is the thing, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, North Korea testing nuclear weapons and missiles, and China threatening Taiwan encourages everybody else to take note and get nuclear weapons so China, North Korea, or Russia can't make such threats against them or other hostile foreign powers. Part of nuclear non-proliferation is stronger powers respecting the right of weaker powers to exist and not be occupied or coerced. The message for everybody else is simple: get nuclear weapons and guarantee your own security, don't get nuclear weapons then get raped. Nobody wants to be raped or occupied by a hostile foreign power, especially when that foreign power has a system of government nobody really wants to live under.
#15275856
Taiwan is only being threatened with invasion according to Western MSM.

How are Taiwanese dealing with China threat?
Despite China's large-scale military exercises around Taiwan, life across the island largely remains the same. The relative calmness is in stark contrast to how the international community views the situation.

"My friends in Germany were very worried about my situation because, from the news they read, it looked like China had completely encircled Taiwan," said Winifred Yu, a professor teaching German language and literature at the National Kaohsiung University of Science and Technology in Southern Taiwan.

"When they asked about the situation here, I told them that the situation was fine and that it's just the same as before."

https://www.dw.com/en/how-are-taiwanese ... a-62755391
#15275859
@Fasces

Even if Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons, Russia's failures in Ukraine should serve as a cautionary tale to the CCP in regard to its designs on Taiwan. It is also important to bear in mind, that it is much easier to launch an invasion against a country that has a land border but not as easy to land troops on an island like Taiwan which is likely to have the advantages of the defender as well.
#15275866
Politics_Observer wrote:And life was really calm in Ukraine just before the Russians invaded with many Ukrainians believing the Russians wouldn't invade and were in denial about the threat.
That's absolutely false and you know it. Nice try. False equivalency.


China is not going to invade Taiwan. That's just the narrative that the West wants people to believe.
#15275867
noemon wrote:I don't know why people keep using this argument to the present day.

Because they were not theirs to keep. Can Turkey just keep US nukes stationed in Turkey?


"After its dissolution in 1991, Ukraine became the third largest nuclear power in the world and held about one third of the former Soviet nuclear weapons, delivery system, and significant means of its design, knowledge, and production."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_a ... estruction

Ukraine was itself a nuclear power, not just a place where nukes were stationed.

Godstud wrote:Taiwan is only being threatened with invasion according to Western MSM.

How are Taiwanese dealing with China threat?
Despite China's large-scale military exercises around Taiwan...


Are you crazy? Look at these two statements. I'm serious. How can the "Russia will never invade" anti-West crowd fail at such basic logic.
#15275871
Godstud wrote:

1) China is not going to invade Taiwan.

2) That's just the narrative that the West wants people to believe.




1) I agree.

2) The Two China policy was China's idea in the 70s. They ignored Taiwan, for the most part, and we avoided pissing them off about it.

That worked until Xi got bellicose. And aggressive, as dictators are wont to do.

"In recent years, China has pursued an increasingly aggressive foreign-policy posture known as “wolf warrior” diplomacy, one that has forcefully staked China’s positions across issues and regions.

But evidence is mounting that this strategy is backfiring. International opinion polls, such as the latest Pew Research Center survey, show that negative views of China is peaking around the world while China’s diplomatic initiatives, such as in Central and Eastern Europe, are failing.

Chinese media refers to this style as “Xiplomacy,” a coined term frequently used in Xinhua News headlines since 2019, short for “Xi Jinping Thought on Diplomacy.” It stands for China’s foreign-policy framework under Chinese President Xi Jinping’s leadership and is one of the five key elements of “Xi Jinping Thought,” the other four involving the economy, ecology, military, and rule of law.

At heart, Xi’s diplomacy calls for a more active role for China as a great power on the world stage, including reforming the Western-dominated international order and creating what China calls “true multilateralism.”

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/12/02/china-xi-jinping-aggressive-diplomacy/

China has taken a small part of India by conquest, built artificial islands to create the absurd claim it owns the South China sea, etc.
#15275872
Politics_Observer wrote:@noemon

But here is the thing, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, North Korea testing nuclear weapons and missiles, and China threatening Taiwan encourages everybody else to take note and get nuclear weapons so China, North Korea, or Russia can't make such threats against them or other hostile foreign powers. Part of nuclear non-proliferation is stronger powers respecting the right of weaker powers to exist and not be occupied or coerced. The message for everybody else is simple: get nuclear weapons and guarantee your own security, don't get nuclear weapons then get raped. Nobody wants to be raped or occupied by a hostile foreign power, especially when that foreign power has a system of government nobody really wants to live under.


Is Turkey ok to just keep US nukes according to you cause she doesn't want to get raped? :knife:
#15275873
Rugoz wrote:"After its dissolution in 1991, Ukraine became the third largest nuclear power in the world and held about one third of the former Soviet nuclear weapons, delivery system, and significant means of its design, knowledge, and production."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_a ... estruction

Ukraine was itself a nuclear power, not just a place where nukes were stationed.


In your fantasy, perhaps.

Lisbon Protocol wiki wrote:Until Ukraine gave up the Soviet nuclear weapons stationed on its soil, it had the world's third-largest nuclear weapons stockpile,[10][11] of which Ukraine had no operational control.

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