[Tainari88]

You have a fiendish imagination, @Tainari88!

I had to bear those Mormons knocking on my door all the time in Ogden Utah, when my mother worked for Weber State University in Ogden Utah in the late eighties. I had to keep telling them, I gave you your chance to indoctrinate me, and you promised to make sense of your religion with the questions my mother and I posed to you missionaries. You never could give a decent answer. Therefore, your religion is not convincing. Do not come back here.

They would send other people hoping we would cave in to their persistence. They never understood that their theories were all basically lies. But, they are out there knocking on doors in every nation. They get in trouble in nations with real fanatics of other religions like Indonesia and the Muslims over there. The Christian Roman Catholics in Latin America do not believe Jesus of Nazareth was in Utah. But they keep insisting on stuff that is just fiction.

What can you do eh?

[MadMonk]

We started the thread with the idea that 'Woke-ism' is not really 'Left-ism'. We still have not decided what characteristics it has, we still have not decided what affects it has on society (American society, specifically). Everyone agrees on what social conservatives represent, their interpretations of events and how they would classify Woke-ism. Let's hear some voices from the other side.

Why socialist Susan Neiman says 'woke-ism' is not leftist

'If you don't base solidarity on deep principles that you share, it's not real solidarity,' says author

Woke: a small word with heft.

The term, first associated with the left to exemplify support and awareness of racial and social injustice, has since become a pejorative, weaponized by the right.

A self-described lifelong leftist and socialist, Susan Neiman may seem an unlikely critic of "woke-ism." But she argues the tenets of the woke have become antithetical to the traditional values of the left.

"I am unwilling to cede the word 'left' or accept the binary suggestion that those who aren't woke must be reactionary. A left-wing critique of those who seem to share the same values might seem to be an instance of narcissism. But it's not small differences that separate me from those who are woke," Neiman writes in her book, Left Is Not Woke.

She adds that the discourse around "woke-ism" is confusing. It evokes emotions that all progressive people share, such as empathy for those who are marginalized and indignation for the oppressed, but those emotions are "derailed by a range of theoretical assumptions that ultimately undermine them."

Neiman is a moral philosopher and director of the Einstein Forum in Potsdam, Germany. She joined IDEAS host Nahlah Ayed onstage at the Toronto Public Library as part of the Provocations Ideas Festival.

Some listening to your critique of woke might accuse you of being anti-woke. Of being hostile to progressive values, to listening to voices that have been marginalized throughout history. What's your response to that?

Well, some of those people are even friends of mine. I had at least two friends who said: 'My God, Susan, I agree with your argument but don't use the word "woke" in the title. Come up with something else. Otherwise, you sound like Ron DeSantis or Rishi Sunak or whatever.'

But you did use the word.

I did. I thought about it for a long time. I agonized about it. But it still seems to me that woke picks something out that we all recognize and that needs to be examined, even if it looks like it's putting you in bad company.

Even if you don't know that this is somebody who has been very much on the side of righting historical wrongs and standing with people who've been marginalized, I think I make it clear that I'm not Ron DeSantis.

What would you say to someone who belongs to a group that has been historically marginalized, who would say that universalism is a luxury they can't afford?

I would say that, first of all, tribalism is a luxury they can't afford because all marginalized peoples or people who have been oppressed in the past need deep solidarity with other people.

And I say somewhere in the book, I'm not an ally. I don't want to be an ally. Allies are based on interests. The United States and the Soviet Union were allies for a short period of time when they had a common interest in defeating Nazi Germany. And as soon as that was over, they became enemies. We don't need to go into whose fault that was. There were lots of people at fault. But what that example shows is that if you don't base solidarity on deep principles that you share, it's not real solidarity.

So that someone who claims their marginalization is worse than everybody else's is reckoning themselves out of the game. And I should say this will sound like a tangent, but it's really not. One of the things that this book was influenced by is the fact that for two years in Berlin, I've been very active in the media and in the political world arguing for a Universalist conception of Judaism.

I am Jewish and [live] in Germany, which has focused on its crimes against the Jewish people. What that has seemed to mean is we learned that we were perpetrators. We learned that the Jews were our victims, and we learned that we did the worst thing to them that could ever be done to anyone. And if, on the contrary, people say, as other left-wing Jewish friends of mine and I have said: 'Wait a second, we don't want to be seen as the victims who are worse than any other victim. And as a matter of fact, we want to focus on crimes that the state of Israel is committing against the people who it's occupied for 56 years,' we're called antisemitic.

And so it's quite funny, of course, to be Jewish and be called antisemitic in the German press. But that experience very much strengthened my own sense that insisting on one's own marginalization or one's own victimhood as a people is not only in principle false, but it's politically and pragmatically really a dead end.

Where do you see the excesses of what you would call 'woke-ism' most pronounced?

Ah, where not? Every place I go, I hear another story. Look, critical books are not being published, critical plays are not being presented. Or if they're presented, they're being rewritten in certain ways.

The idea of cultural appropriation, that cultural products belong to a member of a particular tribe, strikes me as against the concept of culture itself. That's one kind of problem.

Another kind of problem can be seen in — and I'm not current on what exact issues are going on in Canada, so I don't know how this is being dealt with here — in the U.S. we've had for the last three or four years a discussion about monuments.

I'm extremely glad that people have taken down monuments to Confederate generals.

Every southern town in the United States is built around a square, and every square has a statue of Johnny Reb. I'm happy for them to go into museums. There's an interesting museum in Berlin where they sort of put all the bad statues and they've taken them off pedestals so that people can climb on them and do things with them. You know, I think that would be a great thing to do.

But what we've also had in the United States is people asking to take down statues of Abraham Lincoln. I get quite angry about that. Now, did Abraham Lincoln say things that we today would consider racist? Sure. Okay.

What I don't understand is why we can't see that as an instance of progress. Why can't we be glad that we have made progress in 160 some years since Abraham Lincoln was assassinated? But if we made progress, we made it on the back of people like Abraham Lincoln, who gave his life for civil rights for African-Americans.

Why do you think the people concerned have not been able to do that? I mean, there are historical wrongs that people believe need to be righted and that perhaps taking statues down is part of the process.

I think some statues should be taken down. What disturbs me is the way that it's often done without serious thought or nuance. You know, my hope when the wave of statue overturning began was that this would be an occasion for a serious community discussion.

And it should go community by community where people would, first of all, talk about what should be taken down — and even more importantly, talk about who should replace the people who have been taken down. Because that's an important question.

[Potemkin]

I had to bear those Mormons knocking on my door all the time in Ogden Utah, when my mother worked for Weber State University in Ogden Utah in the late eighties. I had to keep telling them, I gave you your chance to indoctrinate me, and you promised to make sense of your religion with the questions my mother and I posed to you missionaries. You never could give a decent answer. Therefore, your religion is not convincing. Do not come back here.

They would send other people hoping we would cave in to their persistence. They never understood that their theories were all basically lies. But, they are out there knocking on doors in every nation. They get in trouble in nations with real fanatics of other religions like Indonesia and the Muslims over there. The Christian Roman Catholics in Latin America do not believe Jesus of Nazareth was in Utah. But they keep insisting on stuff that is just fiction.

What can you do eh?

Nothing you can do, querida. In Britain, we don’t get many Mormons - their place in the religious ecosystem is occupied by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They’re always knocking on people’s door and trying to convince them of all sorts of nonsense. One thing all these people have in common is that they can never answer any questions you pose to them. They have been indoctrinated from a single script, and they don’t know how to deviate from that script. If you ask them a rational question about their beliefs, they usually just say, “I’ve never thought about that before.” Lol. I believe them.

[Tainari88]

@MadMonk people who have never been really Leftist and progressive and socialist and so on for real, all are subject to lies and distortions that Right Wing Fascist Republicans and others in that column of politics want to throw and make it stick. The truth is the Right are ignorant in the extreme of what it is about. They associate centrist and Liberal failed politics and policies with some socialist programs that ordinary voters in the USA want to strengthen and preserve.

Most voters in the USA really do not care about LABELS like woke, liberal, conservative, fascist, socialist, commies and etc. They care about issues. Deal with real issues and real problems. Come up with solutions to them. But since the Right in the USA can't abandon the needs of the uber wealthy, the uber tax dodging and loop hole seeking, the Wall Street investment and banker crowd who wants to not pay a damn penny in any tax scheme from the Feds whatsoever they got to deflect attention from the scrutiny of regular people wanting issues solved.

Look at this gay kid who is confused if they want a vagina at 13 years old. That is the pressing issue of all of America.

Another series of school shootings and mass killings with nutty people shooters and racist haters...no need to do gun control legislation. Time to talk about some rainbow T shirts being sold at Target.

No need to talk about broke people who work all day and can't afford $3000 a month for a closet in NYC, the issue of pressing concern is a teacher who talks about racism through the perspective of some slaves when everyone knows that a white kid is not responsible for some slave ghetto dwellers.

Distractions of bullshit due to not coming up with real solutions like getting Big Pharma to not be paid to sell insulin in too expensive prices to average people and preventing Mexico and Canada runs by US citizens hoping to avoid price hikes on common medications.

No. They are into bullshit versus substance. And as long as the Right wing voters keep loving all that dumb shit they love? No solutions will be found and eventually they will lose more and more seats to the point of the GOP imploding unless they become a Fascist Brigade and take over the government via guns and killing. Then they will see a civil war and the PRC and EU moving in to fill the leadership gap and the USA becoming a default nation and downgraded and a Great Depression and lootings, rioting and white people fleeing to try to avoid their paranoid dumb theories about if they share power with Blacks, Latinos and Asians and Native Americans their civilization will go up in smoke because only they are the Geniuses on planet Earth.

Face your fear and get over the ego tripping. Most of the planet is not white and no one is going to give up their identity in a world full of diversity. Accept reality and stop believing in the Power of Myth to the point of losing everything in dumbness.

[Tainari88]

Nothing you can do, querida. In Britain, we don’t get many Mormons - their place in the religious ecosystem is occupied by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They’re always knocking on people’s door and trying to convince them of all sorts of nonsense. One thing all these people have in common is that they can never answer any questions you pose to them. They have been indoctrinated from a single script, and they don’t know how to deviate from that script. If you ask them a rational question about their beliefs, they usually just say, “I’ve never thought about that before.” Lol. I believe them.

Pote, there is the logic of religion. Then there is dogma. There is harm and there is manipulation. Many know traditional religions is about culture and tradition and customs. But there is an aspect to religion that is about control of the population and keeping the status quo happening.

It boggles the mind the kind of lies people believe with religious cults, organized religions and religious faith not based on behavior and morality but on being able to do a lot of harm and not having to pay for it either socially, economically or psychologically.

David Koresh in Waco, Texas would tell all of his adult male followers who were married with wives, just let me have sex with your wife and take over your bank account, and enslave you because I am God on Earth. Believe in my power. Part of critical thinking is to think critically. Would you allow that kind of bullshit in non religious focused society? No. It is a bad deal. But people do allow it because once you are convinced the leader of the cult is God....your own will and thought process takes a back seat.

You got to follow the rules. But it is not about God. It is about some selfish man's ego.

Elijah Muhammad fell out with Malcolm X because Malcolm X was approached by women who were taken advantage of by Elijah Muhammad and impregnated and he violated his own principles. He was a liar. Malcolm X had a crisis of faith and then came out with maturity and understood, you can't follow leaders from a religious community with blind faith. Look at the evidence and take action to rectify what you know is the truth. Do not deny reality. Take action.

That is true in politics Pote, and in religion. Do not deny the evidence presented that is truth and not lies about that leader. Take action. Do not kill truth in order to avoid pain and betrayal in a corrupt situation.

Truth requires pain being faced and confronted and dealt with.

If you can't face the truth Potemkin? You are not going to be able to deal with necessary change. You wind up stagnated and trapped. Many people just don't understand it. They should.

[noemon]

We started the thread with the idea that 'Woke-ism' is not really 'Left-ism'. We still have not decided what characteristics it has, we still have not decided what affects it has on society (American society, specifically). Everyone agrees on what social conservatives represent, their interpretations of events and how they would classify Woke-ism. Let's hear some voices from the other side.

Sure, but it will take a lot more than a couple of obscure leftist voices criticizing it to wash the left of wokism.

It has become a pejorative because the insanity of the woke has reached red alert.

It does not help that the war on motorists in Britain at least is waged by Labour & the Lib Dems. What is the war on motorists? Low traffic neighborhoods where cars are banned to cross into thus pushing all the traffic in the main roads by preventing motorists from taking shortcuts. This has reached insane levels in Cambridge for example. You find a dead-end anywhere you go.

ULEZ("Ultra low emission zones") zones where motorists have to pay £10-15 to enter while having no other way of getting there!?!

Or that the transgender legislation allowing children to transition without parental consent is also championed by leftist parties.

Or that the eco-madness in the EU is also waged by leftist parties.

In my opinion, the woke were created by the right, during the 80's and 90's, the Thatcher-Reagan legacy when the right won the ideological war, it used some carrots like gay rights for example to placate the masses and that has now spiralled out of control, but it is quite evident that it is the left that is championing wokism in the west.

[Potemkin]

Pote, there is the logic of religion. Then there is dogma. There is harm and there is manipulation. Many know traditional religions is about culture and tradition and customs. But there is an aspect to religion that is about control of the population and keeping the status quo happening.

It boggles the mind the kind of lies people believe with religious cults, organized religions and religious faith not based on behavior and morality but on being able to do a lot of harm and not having to pay for it either socially, economically or psychologically.

David Koresh in Waco, Texas would tell all of his adult male followers who were married with wives, just let me have sex with your wife and take over your bank account, and enslave you because I am God on Earth. Believe in my power. Part of critical thinking is to think critically. Would you allow that kind of bullshit in non religious focused society? No. It is a bad deal. But people do allow it because once you are convinced the leader of the cult is God....your own will and thought process takes a back seat.

You got to follow the rules. But it is not about God. It is about some selfish man's ego.

Elijah Muhammad fell out with Malcolm X because Malcolm X was approached by women who were taken advantage of by Elijah Muhammad and impregnated and he violated his own principles. He was a liar. Malcolm X had a crisis of faith and then came out with maturity and understood, you can't follow leaders from a religious community with blind faith. Look at the evidence and take action to rectify what you know is the truth. Do not deny reality. Take action.

Religion should be about liberating people, setting them free. Christians talk about Jesus as a ‘redeemer’, that is, someone who would purchase a slave from his or her master and then free them. We are slaves to sin, to our own greed and selfishness, and faith in God will set us free from sin. But these false prophets, these false leaders, they come not to set people free but to enslave them. They are just cult leaders, who use other people’s religious faith to enrich themselves, to aggrandise themselves. This is the truth. And if people wilfully blind themselves to the truth, then they will never be free.

That is true in politics Pote, and in religion. Do not deny the evidence presented that is truth and not lies about that leader. Take action. Do not kill truth in order to avoid pain and betrayal in a corrupt situation.

Truth requires pain being faced and confronted and dealt with.

If you can't face the truth Potemkin? You are not going to be able to deal with necessary change. You wind up stagnated and trapped. Many people just don't understand it. They should.

I understand querida. The truth must be faced, no matter how painful or unpleasant. Because the alternative is no sort of life at all. There must be change, because without change there is no life, there is no freedom.

[Fasces]

Yeah, totally right wing right?

Yes. The groups that tend to support banning To Kill a Mockingbird or Huckleberry Finn for "racism" (by which they mean, portraying white Americans or society as racist) tend to be far right.

Look into the groups pushing for that ban.

[wat0n]

Yes. The groups that tend to support banning To Kill a Mockingbird or Huckleberry Finn for "racism" (by which they mean, portraying white Americans or society as racist) tend to be far right.

Look into the groups pushing for that ban.

Not in Burbank, CA. There, the book was banned after complaints by some parents of the use of the n-word as explained in the LA Times article at the time.

Go figure, yet another example where both hypersensitive progressives and hypersensitive conservatives can agree on banning things (Shakespeare plays being another one).

[Pants-of-dog]

The Burbank School District did not ban To Kill A Mockingbird, or any other books.

Instead, these books are no longer required reading for classes.

Unlike the bans by DeSantis and other conservatives, these books can still be accessed by students.

It is a false equivalency to argue that this is the same as the book bans.

[wat0n]

The Burbank School District did not ban To Kill A Mockingbird, or any other books.

Instead, these books are no longer required reading for classes.

Unlike the bans by DeSantis and other conservatives, these books can still be accessed by students.

It is a false equivalency to argue that this is the same as the book bans.

Actually, it's quite similar to what DeSantis is doing. The books weren't simply removed from the required curriculum, teachers are also banned from teaching them and they are only accessible after some conditions are fulfilled and only for small groups (not the whole class).

Furthermore, it seems there are also banned words into the mix.

2022
After parent complaints about the use of racist epithets in To Kill a Mockingbird; Adventures of Huckleberry Finn; The Cay; Of Mice and Men; and Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, the Burbank (CA) Unified School District superintendent removed these titles from required classroom reading lists. Following a review committee’s recommendation, the superintendent also banned the use of the N-word in all school classes. The titles are available for individual reading and teachers can use then with small groups after the teacher has undergone training on facilitating conversations on racism, implicit bias, and racial identity. The district will also review reading lists every eight years.

In response to concerns raised by students and parents, Of Mice and Men, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, and To Kill a Mockingbird were temporarily removed from the mandatory reading list of the William S. Hart Union High School District in Santa Clarita (CA). While the books remain in school libraries, teachers can no longer use them as part of their curricula. The district is accepting input students, teachers, and parents as they set criteria for what should be on mandatory reading lists. No timeline has been provided for when the criteria will be revealed or utilized.

None of this is different from what is being done in Florida, except that it's done by progressives.

[Pants-of-dog]

So students can still access them. They can go to the school library, take the book off the shelf and read it right there in front of everyone, while this is impossible for the books banned in Florida. This is a significant and qualitative difference when discussing censorship.

And teachers can still teach it. They are not being fired for it, as teachers in Florida can be (and are) fired for discussing racism. This is a significant and qualitative difference when discussing censorship.

And yes, it is unacceptable in the school to use the n-word. Note that this is true in classrooms all over the place since it is considered swearing and runs contrary to the anti-discrimination policies of pretty much every school board in the Angkosphere, To argue that Burbank is wrong because they took this step would only make sense if this were exceptional, which it is not.

[wat0n]

So students can still access them. They can go to the school library, take the book off the shelf and read it right there in front of everyone, while this is impossible for the books banned in Florida. This is a significant and qualitative difference when discussing censorship.

Please prove that each and every banned book in Florida are in fact inaccessible in each and every school library in the state.

I want the list, for each book, on a library by library basis.

Thanks!

And teachers can still teach it. They are not being fired for
it, as teachers in Florida can be (and are) fired for discussing racism. This is a significant and qualitative difference when discussing censorship.

Not for the whole classroom, only in small reading group and after going through some training.

And yes, it is unacceptable in the school to use the n-word. Note that this is true in classrooms all over the place since it is considered swearing and runs contrary to the anti-discrimination policies of pretty much every school board in the Angkosphere, To argue that Burbank is wrong because they took this step would only make sense if this were exceptional, which it is not.

Is this a civil rights violation?

Is it censorship to ban students and teachers from saying certain words?

[Pants-of-dog]

The evidence presented by @wat0n shows that the books are still available in libraries.

Now, it seems as if the argument has become that DeSantis is right to enact these civil rights violations (and thereby support racism) unless teachers are allowed to say N***** whenever and however they want (and thereby support racism).

This, of course, implies that woke people are wrong for not supporting racism.

[wat0n]

The evidence presented by @wat0n shows that the books are still available in libraries.

Now, it seems as if the argument has become that DeSantis is right to enact these civil rights violations (and thereby support racism) unless teachers are allowed to say N***** whenever and however they want (and thereby support racism).

This, of course, implies that woke people are wrong for not supporting racism.

Oh, so censoring speech in schools is indeed acceptable when it suits you? You are the one who said teachers should be able to teach, and say, whatever they want in class. You are the one who's been claiming it is a civil rights violation for districts to tell teachers what and how to teach.

You have also not proven what I requested. Please provide, for each and every book in the list you're referring to, that they can't be accessed in each and every school library in the state.

Note that even your own source does not say so. It has mentioned some districts in the state have removed books but not all of them or that doing so is pursuant to a state law - which, too, sounds a lot like what's happened in California and other states with books like To Kill a Mockingbird.

Even worse, your own source claims (literally their first example):

FACT:
Books that have been banned in Florida include:

Biographies of Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente that Duval County admitted to removing from shelves for nearly a year, along with 177 other books from a collection of diverse books.

Yet after reading their source:

Feb. 17, 2023 – Books about Roberto Clemente and Hank Aaron from the Essential Voices collection are among approximately 10,000 books that have been reviewed and approved through the new state-required book review process.

It seems the law mandates a general review of all books dealing with these identity politics topics like LGBT stuff or CRT, but that doesn't mean they will all necessarily be banned.

Furthermore, if PEN America is reliable when talking about book bans in Florida then it surely is when talking about book bans in Burbank, CA:

LETTER TO THE BURBANK UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT
September 16, 2022

PEN America sent the following letter to Superintendent Hill and Burbank Unified School District Trustees on March 29, 2022. We are reproducing the letter now on PEN.org for the public in conjunction with Banned Books Week 2022.

Dear Superintendent Hill and Burbank Unified School District Trustees,

I am writing to you on behalf of PEN America, the literary and free expression organization, to object to your policy, adopted last year, which prohibits any instructional materials with the “N-word” from being used as mandatory reading in any grade level in the Burbank Unified School District. As a free expression organization committed to the freedom to read, write, and learn, we are dismayed by this censorious policy, and call for you to take the necessary steps to rescind it.

In 2020, PEN America expressed great concern with your district’s decision to restrict four books from being taught in classrooms: The Cay; Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry; To Kill a Mockingbird; and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. We understand that Of Mice and Men was subsequently added to this prohibited list; and that it has since been expanded to a broader, blanket policy barring all texts with the “N-word.”

We are currently living through an epidemic of book banning and curricular restrictions, much of it driven by a false notion that parents should have a veto over every and any book students can read in schools. This campaign has targeted hundreds of books about American history, which is inseparable from the history of race and racism, resulting in diminished access to diverse literature in schools. Meanwhile, legislatures in numerous states, and even some school boards, have passed bans on the teaching of so-called “divisive concepts” in the classroom. In Edmond County, Oklahoma, this led one school district to allegedly issue guidance to teachers to avoid using the terms “diversity” and “white privilege,” and to ban the teaching of a set of books in English classes: To Kill a Mockingbird, Their Eyes Were Watching God, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass and A Raisin in the Sun.

Against that backdrop, it is particularly distressing that the same books appear to be currently barred from being read in classrooms in your district. These are forms of censorship, even when they are being pursued with good intentions.

We understand the genesis of your current board policy lies in a hateful incident that took place in the district and that it stems from a desire to enact positive reform to make the district’s classrooms more racially inclusive. Many books that contain the “N-word” by their nature deal with difficult subject matter from our country’s complicated and painful history, including systemic racism. These are difficult issues; but the answer to them cannot be to prohibit literary works in schools for merely containing a specific word. Rather, these subjects must be approached with care and sensitivity, acknowledging this word’s charged and heinous past.

The sheer implications of your current policy are vast, especially as it implicates classic literature from the civil rights movement. The policy appears to effectively ban dozens, if not hundreds, of works from classrooms, including works by numerous Black authors, critics, novelists, historians, poets, playwrights, and even songwriters.

While students may indeed still be able to read these books independently, it is deeply concerning that—under this policy—they are prohibited from discussing works by Martin Luther King, Jr., James Baldwin, or Maya Angelou as a class, and that such works cannot be made mandatory curricular reading. Such books have much to teach young people about American history, liberty, democracy, equality, justice, as well as the continued struggle for a more equitable society.

As PEN America has said many times in response to this recent spate of book bans: the censorship of literary works in our schools and libraries is a travesty. We believe professional educators are well-equipped to guide students in reading books that may contain challenging or potentially distressing content, and that reckoning with books that depict the complexities of history and modern society is part of the purpose of an education. Instead of limiting access to literature as a means of making spaces more inclusive, we advocate for balancing academic freedom with tangible efforts to redress legacies of discrimination and inequity.

In the current political climate, we all too often see school districts reverting to censorship, which has become so familiar around the world as the recourse of tyrants. But it is in our classrooms that we must teach the rising generation this cardinal democratic principle. We look to our educators and school district leaders to uphold it in their policies and pedagogical practice.

As it stands, your policy does an injustice to both your students and to hundreds of literary works, sending a message that certain books are best left censored and ignored, and that some discussions of American history are impossible for educators to facilitate.

We view this as a grave and pressing concern. We would be pleased to meet with you to discuss this matter, along with a small delegation of writers who share our perspective, to explain why
this prohibitive policy must be rescinded.

We would appreciate your acknowledgement of receipt of this letter.

PEN America seems to agree with my claim book bans are something both conservatives and progressives do. And it is also against banning certain words in class.

[Pants-of-dog]

Since none of the new information contradicts any claims made, it is not necessary to address them , unless people are confused and need an explanation as to how the Burbank censorship does not prohibit children from reading these books while Desantis’s bans do.

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog it does contradict your idea that Burbank did not ban any books. Again, from the same organization (PEN America) you deem credible.

It also contradicts the idea that all those books are being banned in Florida.

At last, you have not addressed the issue of censorship in schools when it suits you. Why isn't banning the n-word, even in books aiming to denounce racism, censorship?

[Pants-of-dog]

Duval County books are immediately removed from student access whenever a book is reviewed for banning. This review process can take up to ten months, apparently. We know this because the books mentioned in the article were under review for that entire period, before a review found there was no objectionable material.

So even though the books were not officially blacklisted, students were unable to access the books.

Burbank, on the other hand, has never denied access to the books, even when the racist incident was being reviewed. PEN’s criticism is that the books are not available for classroom curricula without certain conditions. Note that Florida has made many more books unavailable to classrooms under any conditions.

Even if we accept the implausible notion that Desantis put his censorship campaign together as a reaction to Burbank, the reaction is qualitatively far more broad and has resulted in more books banned and significantly reduced access to books and the free exchange of ideas than the supposed “woke” cause.

[wat0n]

Duval County books are immediately removed from student access whenever a book is reviewed for banning. This review process can take up to ten months, apparently. We know this because the books mentioned in the article were under review for that entire period, before a review found there was no objectionable material.

So even though the books were not officially blacklisted, students were unable to access the books.

Grasping at straws here.

Fact is, the books at hand were deemed to be OK and are currently available for students and instructors to use in the district.

And it was not a state-wide ban.

Burbank, on the other hand, has never denied access to the books, even when the racist incident was being reviewed. PEN’s criticism is that the books are not available for classroom curricula without certain conditions. Note that Florida has made many more books unavailable to classrooms under any conditions.

Even if we accept the implausible notion that Desantis put his censorship campaign together as a reaction to Burbank, the reaction is qualitatively far more broad and has resulted in more books banned and significantly reduced access to books and the free exchange of ideas than the supposed “woke” cause.

Burbank does however ban the discussion of these books in class and does also ban certain words in instruction, even when used to teach why they are insulting to begin with. It is, under your standard, not just limiting discussion but also denying teachers their right to free speech.

As far as I am aware, these measures have not been reversed and I hope I am wrong, by the way. However, I do recognize the right of Burbank's Unified School District to determine the curriculum under California law. Their decision is silly but not a civil rights violation

[Pants-of-dog]

Since no one is refuting the fact that hundreds of books have been removed from student access in Florida while no books have been removed from student access in Burbank, and since no one is refuting the fact that DeSantis’ reaction (if we can call it that) is a far larger civil rights violation than its supposed cause, we can move on.

Why do centrists think that Desantis should not be held accountable?